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3381  Local / Deutsch (German) / Re: Umfrage: Steuerbescheid zu Bitcoins on: July 24, 2014, 08:45:45 PM
Falls ihr noch einen Trick habt, lasst es mich mal wissen.

Ich will meine Erklärung gerne ehrlich machen. Aber bei den ganzen kleinen Altcoin-Spielereien ist das einfach nicht mehr zumutbar.

Irgendwo is dann auch mal gut, würd ich sagen.

Mir ist nicht ganz klar was du meinst mit dem verlorenen Bitcoin. Zeigst du dem FA deine bitcoin-wallets? Also ich mache das nicht, die "Kontoauszüge" von den Exchanges reichen doch auch völlig aus, oder nicht? Ich muss ja auch nicht dem Finanzamt meinen Gold-Vorrat zeigen, oder?


Du kannst eine Betriebsprüfung bekommen. Das geht auch bei Privatpersonen. Dann werden Deine Bitcoin Einkäufe den Verkäufen gegenüber gestellt. Wenn Du weniger Bitcoins verkauft hast als eingekauft, kann das Finanzamt einen Nachweis über den Besitz der Bitcoins verlangen. Ob das so umgesetzt wird ist natürlich sehr fragwürdig. Im Prinzip aber möglich. Wenn Du weniger Bitcoins hast, als Du haben müsstest, kann das Finanzamt "schätzen", dass Du die verkauft hast und irgendwelche Steuern ansetzen.

Ja, ist klar mit der Prüfung. Das mit der Nachweispflicht war mir so nicht klar, macht aber Sinn.

Hmm, vielleicht hast du den 1 Bitcoin gespendet oder für etwas ausgegeben, weisst es aber nicht mehr genau und schreibst einen Eigenbeleg mit Jahresdurchschnittskurs? Auch blöd... welches verkaufsdatum?
3382  Bitcoin / Hardware wallets / Re: Trezor: Bitcoin hardware wallet on: July 24, 2014, 08:13:03 PM
That pricing is from back when 1 BTC was around $200 $80-$120.


ok, sorry. Didn't want to err on the wrong side.
3383  Local / Deutsch (German) / Re: Umfrage: Steuerbescheid zu Bitcoins on: July 24, 2014, 08:01:22 PM
Also eins muss ich mal sagen: so wie sich Bitcoin in die deutsche Regulierungslandschaft einbettet findet ich das nicht gut.

Das Zeug wird halt nun mal verwendet wie Geld aber steuerlich behandelt wie ein Wertgegenstand. Das führt dann zu Auswüchsen an Buchhaltungsaufwand und wohl auch zum Schaden der Privatsphäre. Ich muss ja dann jeden Kaugummi den ich kaufe dem FA melden.

Dann noch das ganze Mehrwertsteuerthema (mining, gewerblicher Handel mit Bitcoin)... irgendwie sieht das nicht so rosig aus für Bitcoin in Deutschland.

(sorry for OT)
3384  Local / Deutsch (German) / Re: Umfrage: Steuerbescheid zu Bitcoins on: July 24, 2014, 07:48:26 PM
Falls ihr noch einen Trick habt, lasst es mich mal wissen.

Ich will meine Erklärung gerne ehrlich machen. Aber bei den ganzen kleinen Altcoin-Spielereien ist das einfach nicht mehr zumutbar.

Irgendwo is dann auch mal gut, würd ich sagen.

Mir ist nicht ganz klar was du meinst mit dem verlorenen Bitcoin. Zeigst du dem FA deine bitcoin-wallets? Also ich mache das nicht, die "Kontoauszüge" von den Exchanges reichen doch auch völlig aus, oder nicht? Ich muss ja auch nicht dem Finanzamt meinen Gold-Vorrat zeigen, oder?
3385  Local / Deutsch (German) / Re: Umfrage: Steuerbescheid zu Bitcoins on: July 24, 2014, 03:22:21 PM
Wenn Du die Altcoins nie verkaufst, ist das ganz schön Scheiße. Du zahlst Steuern für Gewinne, die Du gar nicht eingestrichen hast.
...
Es gilt grundsätzlich: Jeder Tausch von einem Altcoin (auch Bitcoin) in einen anderen ist eine Gewinnrealisierung und ein steuerbares Event.

Die Aussage verstehe ich nicht ... ich kann doch keine Steuern auf nie eingestrichene Gewinne zahlen, wenn ich nie irgendwas verkaufe! Deiner Aussage nach ist bereits der reine Kauf eines Altcoins durch Bitcoins eine Gewinnrealisierung und muss daher dem FA gemeldet werden ...



Könnte gut sein, daß dies so ist, da ein Tausch ein wechselseitiges Veräußerungsgeschäft ist. Der eine verkauft ALT, der andere eben BTC.

Auch wenn du einen Kinderwagen mit BTC bezahlst, ist das nach dieser Logik ein Verkauf von BTC und muss ggf. so versteuert werden.
3386  Local / Trading und Spekulation / Re: Der Aktuelle Kursverlauf on: July 24, 2014, 03:17:01 PM
...kleine Hommage an den Silkroad Dip vor der letzten Blase!

imo nicht vergleichbar. Wo ist die Erleichterung? Silkroad war ein Blocker für viele. Hier wurde kein Blocker abgeschafft.
3387  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: July 24, 2014, 03:14:05 PM
OMG THIS IS THE SILK ROAD EVENT!
We are on our way to new ATH!

I don't think so.

Silkroad bust was a relief for many and allowed them to get into BTC.

Where's the relief now?

not comparable.
3388  Bitcoin / Hardware wallets / Re: Trezor: Bitcoin hardware wallet on: July 24, 2014, 11:09:14 AM
it looks great but 1 btc is so expensive

That pricing is from back when 1 BTC was around $200. It's not unreasonable to hope for a much better price in BTC-terms.

3389  Economy / Speculation / Re: This Bitfinex Credit Bubble cannot end well on: July 23, 2014, 08:25:57 PM
$ swaps are slowly decreasing, not falling. They did fall in February, but now it's still undecided. And yet no jump in BTC swaps.

BTC swaps fell from 4,200 to 2,900 on monday
3390  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: July 23, 2014, 04:59:37 PM
perhaps gold breaking below 1300 again could spark/catalyze the next Bitcoin rally?  the bull flag is ripe for a breakout...
3391  Bitcoin / Hardware wallets / Re: Trezor: Bitcoin hardware wallet on: July 23, 2014, 03:43:47 PM
I bought 4 of these (2 metallic and 2 classic)... but I want to buy an additional 100 as soon as it becomes an option and just hand them out to friends and family like candy. I'm sure others feel the same way. TELL YOUR MANUFACTURER TO MAKE 10 MILLION OF THEM!

indeed. This device has a huge potential, especially for people who are not tech savvy and are afraid to buy bitcoin because they think they will loose it.

I feel the same way. I think demand will reflect the awesomeness und usefulness of trezor over time.

3392  Economy / Speculation / Re: rpietila Wall Observer - the Quality TA Thread ;) on: July 23, 2014, 07:03:02 AM
I think we well see a breakout at the end of the month. We will jump to 8000 USD in a matter of days, stay there for a while and after that jump to 1200, correction to 950-1000 region and after that... >5000 USD Wink

If that's based on TA I'd like to see it ;-)

Maybe you meant "800" instead of "8000"? That would make more sense.

I can agree we will pause at 800 for a while. Have been saying so (and been laughed at for doing so) during the runup to 680. It could be 800 is the new 180 (remember Adam constantly saying: "180 by end of next week"). If history repeats according to this, we'd pause at 800, but not for very long, just for a little breath-taking.

I think the jump to 800 is still a month or three off, though. Wouldn't mind being proven wrong, of course.
3393  Economy / Speculation / Re: Analysis never ends on: July 23, 2014, 06:54:29 AM
I also see a similarity with the 2011 period, I think we will see a long steady period until next phase. Im ok with it as I can keep trying to get some BTC monthly, if the price goes higher i will be getting basically peanuts.

I don't see similarity with 2011. At least not if you mean the excruciatingly painful bear market in the later part of that year. The media proclaimed BITCOIN DEAD!. Only the most stubborn idiots (like me) seemed to hold on to their Bitcoin. Sentiment on forum was terrible. Doomsayers pointed to earlier posts saying "scam", "ponzi", ...

However I also think we might be looking at quite a long period of sideways action... I'd rather compare it to summer 2013, though. Sentiment was mixed. Bulls were bullish, bears bearish. Bears are not very vocal right now, probably because of the stream of good news, but bulls are also kind of exhausted, having called/expected the next rocket just around the corner for up to half a year now.

I have accepted as quite probable we might have to wait a rather long time for the next jump to occur. So I'm rather disillusioned currently, neither buying nor selling. Kind of a capitulation, which is in turn: a good sign.

EDIT: I also give credit to luc for calling a "year-long bear market" late last year. At the time I thought he was nuts. Now one has to acknowledge his call wasn't off by much so far.
3394  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: July 23, 2014, 06:44:33 AM
it will be very hard to invest a significant fortune in bitcoins without the government knowing it.

But it is amazingly easy to invest an insignificant fortune in bitcoin, and subsequently spend a significant one.

Suppose that I were to use a threat of torture to compel you to trade all of your gold for false analogies, invalidate all contracts payable in gold, and demand that you pay me false analogies on a recurring basis, when I had previously arranged for the establishment of a lender of false analogies who was the only source of false analogies you could tender without being tortured by me, and who lent out false analogies at a rate of interest set by my sock puppet.  Suppose further that I issued an arbitrary number  of false analogies to a few of my friends at zero interest - several orders of magnitude larger than would be required to purchase all real property in the entire land - and required that all sales of real property be conducted in false analogies, on penalty of torture.  Then suppose that I took some of the false analogies that I had extorted from you, and hired an army of useful idiots to impress upon everyone that only false analogies were of any real value, and everyone should donate all of their labor to people who have more false analogies than they do, in hopes of getting a few here and there, and another army of sycophants to indoctrinate your children in the cult of false analogies.  Then I hired an army of army to bomb anyone, anywhere in the world, along with up to a million of their countrymen at a go, who threatened to trade oil in gold instead of trading oil in false analogies.  And every once in a while, I shipped a literal cargo jet loaded with literal palettes of 100 false analogy notes to some distant occupied land, administered by a friend of mine, who lost track of a few billion false analogies this way.  Then I promised you could have healthcare if you made me Emperor, and when you did, I doubled the charges (made on threat of torture) payable in false analogies each month.  Meanwhile I indexed your income in false analogies to the price in false analogies of irrelevant luxury goods, which consistently carried negative against the increasing price, in false analogies, of food, energy, fuel, housing, medicine, and education.

Would you finally consider yourself, then, a free and dignified human being, well-served by the servants of the public, who merit your confidence?

+/u/changetip 1 false analogy
3395  Local / Trading und Spekulation / Re: Der Aktuelle Kursverlauf on: July 23, 2014, 06:36:20 AM
Sollte ich quatsch reden bitte sagt es mir :

Sollte 1 BTC wirklich mal 10k wert sein wer zum geier soll das auszahlen wenn jemand das geld will  Huh

Ich glaube kaum das einer so dumm ist das wirklich auszuzahlen wenn der kurs wieder in den keller gehen wird

Ich wollte das grad mal ausprobieren und eine Order bei bitcoin.de "1 BTC für 10.000 EUR" einstellen.

Leider geht das nicht:

Quote
Bitte korrigieren Sie Ihren gewünschten Verkaufspreis pro Bitcoin. Der Preis darf nicht mehr als 100% über dem aktuellen Kurs (462,98 €/BTC) liegen.

Ich vermute aber momentan ist wirklich keiner so "dumm" das "auszuzahlen".

schnebi hat das ganz gut erklärt: der Markt macht den Preis. Wenn Bitcoin wirklich auf €10.000 steigt, dann ist das eine folge davon, daß es Leute gibt, die bereit sind diesen Preis zu zahlen.

Also: du redest nicht wirklich quatsch, aber aus deinen Aussagen lässt sich ableiten, daß du ein verzerrtes Bild davon hast, wie die Bitcoin-Märkte funktionieren. Wir leben ja nicht in einer Plan-Wirtschaft, wo die Preise von irgendwem festgelegt werden und die Akteure dann gezwungen werden, diesen zu benutzen. Einen Handel zu einem bestimmten Preis auszuführen ist freiwillig (mal IHK, GEZ, Steuern, etc... ausgenommen)
3396  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: July 22, 2014, 09:21:24 PM
I just came to the Speculation forum and found a thread where fonzie supposedly stated something bullish!!! What happened? Did hell freeze over?

link or it didn't happen
3397  Economy / Economics / Re: Distribution of bitcoin wealth by owner on: July 22, 2014, 08:29:21 PM
I would assume the 19 with more than 100kBTC could just be thrown out.  Other than that it looks logical.

Indeed.  But the lower end is unreliable too. People who own less than 0.1 BTC probably don't bother to read /r/bitcoin, and that may hold also for those in the 0.1-1.0 range.


I agree with both of these statements... I am even skeptical that 3 people have over 10kBTC on reddit...

theymos, evorhees came to mind quickly. I'm sure we can find a third one...
3398  Economy / Economics / Re: Please stop with mBTC, microBTC, ...! on: July 22, 2014, 07:27:18 PM
It might be all redundant if BTC value rises properly it will make the sat argument far more viable

I think we're finally on a good way to findin a consensus here...
3399  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: July 22, 2014, 07:25:08 PM
oh, now i know why you aren't spending anything; the banks kept all the money.  but i thought they were supposed to lend it out?  the answer is, "you ain't good enuf":



that money might trickle avalanche down into the economy at some point, no?

"avalanche economics"
3400  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: July 22, 2014, 07:21:43 PM
Maybe I'm going to look back in one year from now (or even 6 months)



I really like this chart.  

I think that the chart depicts historical aspects of BTC prices that constitutes, more or less, a more than 8X increase per year over the almost 4 year period; however, most of that growth occurred in 2011 - accordingly, the growth seems to be skewed towards 2011.  In this regard, there seem to exist decreasing intensities in the magnitude of each of the BTC bubbles, and maybe the increased BTC prices have made difficulties in having continued bubbles of 8x or greater?  

NONETHELESS, if another major bubble of 8x or more were to occur, then these previous price increases will merely be part of the description of an ongoing pattern.  

Personally, I am torn about what to believe, yet I am somewhat skeptical that continued bubbles of 8x or more is sustainable, even though I do believe that it is possible to have a few more 8x or greater bubbles in the coming years.

The chart above shows both bursts and drops, and the price bursts occurred:

early 2011  = 5x

mid 2011 = 41x

late 2011 = 3x

2012 = 3x

early 2013 = 18x

late 2013 = 9x


So far 2014, has been mostly downward, with a bit of gradual upward momentum in the last two months; however, it seems that we are still waiting to see what is going to happen in the remainder of 2014 in order to characterize BTC prices for this year and to prognosticate the direction of BTC.  

Surely, it does seem possible that BTC prices will remain more or less flat for the remainder of 2014; however, given the intensity of continued ongoing good news, various multimillion dollar investments into BTC, the appearance that several wall-street interests are looking into BTC investments, government regulations that are tolerable towards ongoing BTC growth, efforts to establish more user-friendly applications, greater BTC adoption and awareness and continued opportunities for liquidity, it is seeming less and less probable that BTC prices can be kept down for the remainder of 2014, absent some catastrophic negative BTC event.  Also, it seems that if BTC prices go past $850 or so in the next 6 months, then inevitably, BTC prices are going to spurt into a new ATH, in the range of $2,500 to $5,000.  

who wouldn't like that chart... it seems to imply more hype cycle iterations.

good observation on decreasing magnitude. If you look only at the major ones (41x, 18x, 9x), one could extrapolate that the next one might only reach 4.5x (if we put the start at $800, it would peak at $3,400)
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