Is it just me or was there a part missing from his update about how people owed BTC would be repaid? I'm not sure its a good idea for the community to back someone who can leave unencrypted wallets on the server and when it gets hacked say "oops my bad. Your bitcoins are gone but good news you can deposit more soon and hope I do a better job securing them this time."
Shit happens. You weren't saying that back when it was your money on the line too... |
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I am soliciting offers for the purchase of my 103 BTC balance at Bitfloor.
How do you plan to make the sale effective? do you sell your account? All means of Bitcoin transfers have been shutdown on bitfloor. I would expect Roman to faciliate the tranfer of obligations to your account. Well, I don't have an account and it's closed for registration. Other than that I'd offer 25, deal? Not even close. Bitfloor in liquidation is worth at least 40% of the reported losses. Plus gross negligence on Roman's part should make it straightforward to get a judgement against his personal assets. Why didn't you state up front that you were looking for at least 40% instead of berating people for sending what they believe to be a reasonable offer? You are the only person doing any berating in this thread. What I did was kickoff a very necessary discussion into the valuation of Roman's presently defaulted obligations. Do you have anything useful to contribute? If not, please take a Midol and the rest of your life off from posting to me. "Not even close" and stating that it is worth "at least 40%" as if the person making the offer was completely stupid for thinking it was worth anything less is pretty berating. Especially when all you said is "send your offers," not specifying a particular amount to begin with. I just think it's silly when people ask others to send offers, then scold them for lowballing when there was no precedent for the value of item to begin with. If you're looking to receive a certain amount for something, then state as much up front. Anything else is just wasting people's time. And if you want to discuss the valuation of Roman's defaulted obligations, why not just propose said discussion? Say, "What would you pay for a piece of Roman's default obligations, as a percentage?" Bam. Simple as that. No need for people to send you useless offers that you will refuse because you're really only just looking for a valuation. |
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OK, revise the question - if the connection to the rest of the world was spotty, say, once a week, instead of non-existent, how would that change things?
My reason for asking this is I am developing a product for deployment in the Third World that Bitcoin is a great fit for, but it must be able to function with only intermittent access to the blockchain and support 50-100 users.
Besides spending an hour or so (on a fast connection) to download the last week's worth of transactions anyone on the island would also have to wait a week to truly see their transactions confirmed. If they mined on their own, then they would create transactions for those coins, sure, but as soon as they hooked back up to the mainland, all of those transactions would be reversed/deleted, and they would have to wait until those transactions were processed by a miner on the mainland (or by them while they still had the connection to the mainland). So: - They couldn't mine coins, because they would be reversed when connected to the mainland. - They couldn't send transactions, unless they didn't mind waiting for a week for each one to be confirmed and for the person receiving them to be able to spend them again. Really, I think it'd be a good idea to create a local version of Bitcoin (not even a fork, just a start-from-block-1 Bitcoin Island Edition), and let them mine away. They'll end up setting their own values for the coins as appropriate, and they would never have to connect to the mainland. Perhaps there may arise some demand for these Island coins from people who visit the island (?), so an exchange could be created where island people could trade their island coins for regular Bitcoins, and use them on the mainland, etc. |
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I am soliciting offers for the purchase of my 103 BTC balance at Bitfloor.
How do you plan to make the sale effective? do you sell your account? All means of Bitcoin transfers have been shutdown on bitfloor. I would expect Roman to faciliate the tranfer of obligations to your account. Well, I don't have an account and it's closed for registration. Other than that I'd offer 25, deal? Not even close. Bitfloor in liquidation is worth at least 40% of the reported losses. Plus gross negligence on Roman's part should make it straightforward to get a judgement against his personal assets. Why didn't you state up front that you were looking for at least 40% instead of berating people for sending what they believe to be a reasonable offer? |
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Bitinstant didn't do this for Romney - they did it for all the tens of thousands of people who are now researching Bitcoins after reading the article about the attempted extortion, and are wondering how to easily acquire Bitcoins for themselves. Read the latter portion of Erik's quote: Not only that, we’ll also show you how to safely use a Bitcoin wallet, back up and encrypt it, and make payments. We’ll even set you up with a Bitcoin app on your iPhone! You’ll be a Bitcoin expert in no time! He makes the business sound incredibly helpful to newbies. Which is exactly who will be reading the article, and exactly who will end up purchasing Bitcoins through Bitinstant because of it. Even though he is addressing Romney in the quote, he is really addressing all of the people who have just heard about Bitcoin for the first time. Oh, and does everyone realize that both presidential candidates now know full well what Bitcoin is?  *tinfoil hat time* The tax documents are fakes created by Romney's campaign that don't show any "funny stuff". The blackmail was created by Romney's campaign. In the event that the $$$ amount is not met (which is what is expected by Romney's campaign), the fake tax documents will be released. Since it is not an official governmental release, no one can verify the legitimacy of them, but most people will believe them to be legitimate anyhow. It's a huge win for Romney. |
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D&T, is it possible that Bitcoin account holders could be seen as secured creditors (secured because they held an asset - bitcoins - instead of simply being a loaner of USD), and would thus be required to be paid back first?
I tried looking at cases where someone might have a secured claim on a commodity at a bankrupt company, but haven't really been able to find anything like that.
And really, I don't have much of a clue when it comes to bankruptcy law anyway.
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I don't know if there would be any interest in an exchange with 100% cold storage and delayed withdraws.
Most bank transfer take ~24h, so I'd say people might tolerate if you manage to execute them daily. Assuming you explain the reason well enough. EDIT: A very-small hot wallet, which would frequently get depleted, but that could be refunded daily too, might be even better. By very-low I mean with an amount that you could assure you can refund from your own pockets in case of a hack.This is what it pretty much comes down to. No exchange should operate with a hot wallet larger than the exchange operator is willing to reimburse out of their own pocket. Everything else goes into cold storage. If the exchange operator doesn't want to reimburse anything in the event of a hack, then they shouldn't have a hot wallet. Period. At this point, it's not a question of if an exchange will be hacked, it is a question of when, and what the procedures of the exchange will be afterward. |
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i wonder if this whole Romney Effect is one of Voorhees marketing campaigns?  I don't know who it is but to be honest it smells like a Bitcoin marketing campaign. I wouldn't be surprised if it was. Then again, it could be for real. Bitcoins are, after all, perfect for ransom money. Well, Gavin DID say there was big news coming in September... he didn't specify how said news would be delivered. |
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While I don't agree with the decision to allow ACH withdrawals (and I rather doubt its legality), I do appreciate you keeping us informed, and making the choice to do what seems right to you. I do hope that you can keep the site running, and eventually pay back the BTC to those whom it was stolen from.
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" Only really possible in small tribal communities where everyone knows each other and can hold each other accountable" I agree Absolutely. I reference timebank : http://timebanks.org/ taking this concept and moving the record keeping to use btc instead of the 3rd party keeping track of who has what coins. That would also keep eyes from everyone's business. Again, thanks for your more then honest input. I'm all for more user groups making use of Bitcoins! |
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No, he didn't. He promised to pay Matthew 15,000 BTC if Matthew wins the bet. |
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Someone just gave Matthew 15,000BTC
Seriously, when you give him 165k USD do you really think he's going to pay you 330,000USD after 3 days?
Madness.
What do you mean "gave him 15,000 BTC"? |
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You don't need a botnet. Heck, 1 $150 BFL Jalepeno ( http://www.butterflylabs.com/order-form-bitforce-sc-jalapeno/) can mine just as much as a decent-sized botnet with ~5000 computers in it. Bitcoin wasn't made for people to make money out of thin air anyway. It was made as an open transaction system free from government regulation and cheap/free to use. If you want to use Bitcoin for what it was intended for, buy some Bitcoins (don't frustrate yourself with trying to mine them), and start buying stuff with them! |
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Of course it's clear to people with basic understanding of the machinery of free market that everyone's time should not be worth the same. Otherwise it's a system of charity rather than a currency.
On the other hand minting based on time is possible with centralized identification service (i.e. not applicable to the realm of crypto-currency). I think someone published a paper on this recently, this system includes built-in welfare because you get to mint coins by just living your life, but that probably would likely provide only bare mininum of subsistence.
I think this would be an interesting experiment. And not even at the "bare minimum of sustenance" level either - somewhere far below that. But, an experimental currency that would give out an equal (per person) and continuous flow of digital coins to people based on some set of criteria that would most definitely set each person apart from the next. DNA, maybe? Certainly, the logistics of identifying a person and making sure they do not receive more than one payout would be by far the most difficult part of such a project. Regardless, it would be incredibly interesting to see how people valued these coins given out for free. They could actually provide a bare minimum of sustenance, depending on how much they are in demand. Or they could be worth all of $0.10 for a month's worth. Who knows? The market would certainly set the price... Which gives rise to the fact that we as humans will never rise above doing things for personal gain.
But as stated, it would take a society that can provide basics of living to everyone, and above that would be your motivation to work for more.
So much for a Roddenberry future.
It must be mentioned that many people in this world actually volunteer their time as duty to fellow homo sapiens (and other animals too).
As for costs of things, our current market is way inflated due to government (and other lobbying corp) influence. So those currently gouging the system would not have the means to do so.
Wages, perhaps a good motivator for going into a more educated profession would be extra time allotted or the society credits you the time spent educating yourself.... Imagine that, being paid to educate yourself for the betterment of society.
Thanks for your views.
You are completely correct. Humans will never rise above doing things for self interest or self preservation. Humans will always take the easiest path to achieve what they want. Some people volunteer (and don't get me wrong - I volunteer too on a regular basis) because it makes them feel good, and thus helps them achieve their goal of happiness. And it only takes one bad apple (AKA, a freerider) to spoil an entire utopia based on everyone "contributing equally". I do agree that government adds a lot of inefficiencies, but that doesn't mean it still wouldn't take a great deal more effort to become and work as a doctor than it would be to be an assembly line worker, or a barber. It's a pipe dream, and a ridiculous one at that. Only really possible in small tribal communities where everyone knows each other and can hold each other accountable, and jobs more or less require the same amount of training/qualifications to accomplish. Certainly not in the anonymously-global world we live in today with an incredibly wide spread between skills, education, and work load levels. |
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Mathew I know you regard any serious questions from me as trolling, but are you implying that pirate hasn't paid everyone back because Chaang Noi threw a spanner in the works to win his bet against you?
No. I'm implying that Chaang Noi is actively working -against- pirate paying out, throwing as many spanners, and attempting to convince others to throw -their- spanners in as well, in an attempt to sabotage my bet. Yes. I have witnesses-- the people he tried to convince to do his dirty bidding. Chaang Noi is not the reason why Pirate is not paying back -anyone-, he's the reason why pirate -can't- pay back -everyone-. I'll repeat-- He's actively working against Pirate at every turn so that I will lose my bet. I wonder how the community thinks about that as a "fair" bet. Matthew you need a cereal box education. As in read the box in the morning as you eat your bowl of candy-coated wheat. You see that promotion? See the part where it says "Not open to P&G employees or its affiliates"? Maybe you should consider WHY that might be printed there... When you agreed to a non-trivial bet against people who are to some degree affiliated with BST you essentially guaranteed that they would be working towards a payout on the 10th. Your post. It needs fixing. No, the double score for people who "invested" with Pirate and bet against Matthew is when Matthew loses the bet on the 9th, and Pirate pays out on the 10th. (Not saying I think Pirate will ever pay...) Ah, I see what you mean now. My mind. It needs fixing. |
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Ideas like "everyone should be paid the same" are simplistic.
Wages are simply prices. They are the price of persons labor/time.
Imagine if someone proposed all products and services must be priced exactly the same.
Ferrari & a bike must cost 10,000 BTC each. Who would build Ferrari's?
A broken TV and a brand new house must both cost $100. Hmm I think I will trade in some broken TV for houses.
When you apply the same "logic" to anything other than wages it become painfully obvious how silly it is.
So why do some products cost more than others? Supply & Demand. People are willing to pay a premium for iphones over other products hence the price is high. At one time Motarolla (RAZOR anyone) products sold at a premium but not anymore.
Imagine if someone forced Apple & Motorolla to both sell their phones for the same price. Say $200. What would happen? Chronic shortages of iphone and a black market where iPhones sold closer to what supply & demand supported.
Price controls on products don't work. Wages are simply the price of labor. Not all labor is equally valuable.
Excellent post DAT, as usual. |
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Or we could have DryCleanedGarmentsCoin, backed by drycleaned garments, and have blockchain based laundry-tickets redeemable for the garments, and people could barter those?
Let's go for a more universal and purer form of labor: hugs The only way to combat the problem is to attach a system outside of fiat currencies. So what concept is universal to most humans.... Well if time is money then it must be the time that is worth something. Time and the Goods that were produced in said time. Let us say we (the community that accepts the new coin) attached the value of one hour of time per one coin. Of course to make that work the community would need to understand that everyone's hour is worth the same. If you are a Doctor then your Hour is worth the same as the hairdresser down the street. What matters is the time you put in to your line (or lines) of work. So long as your skill meets a need of the community then your effort is paid by trading the coins for others services. It runs along the concept of barter system but levels the playing field for all ages. The time dollar is old hat and has been working well for many communities it would seem. One particular site is already used to keep track of jobs needing done and who has what time creds. What I would like to see is a decentralized form of this system by attaching the value to a btc fork. Naturally we would need to figure out the least amount of time$s needed to supply basic needs. The community may need to adjust its greed level to make things work for everyone (agreeing to sell necessary goods at affordable levels). If for some reason it becomes necessary to convert a time$ to a local currency then perhaps we could give its value as the local minimum wage (unless of course that is only an American thing.) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41513.msg1145565#msg1145565Completely terrible idea. If you pay the same to a doctor as a hairdresser, then no one becomes a doctor. Who is going to go through an extra dozen years of schooling, have a high-stress, long-hours job, have the threat of malpractice lawsuits constantly hanging over their heads with every move they make, only to make the same amount as the barber down the street who dropped out of high school? Maybe a handful of people would feel it is their "duty" or "calling" to go through all that to help civilization, but certainly, the number of people who would become doctors would be far fewer than today, and certainly far fewer than necessary to server the general public. And that could be extrapolated further. Who is going to be a manager with a degree in manufacturing engineering when they could skip college and simply be an assembly line worker making the same dough? Who is going to be an assembly line worker when they could do what they truly love and just write music all day? So, we end up with a society full of a bunch of starving musicians and artists who can't buy food or clothing or shelter or transportation because no one is willing to make any of those things, because everyone wants to be a musician. |
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Mathew I know you regard any serious questions from me as trolling, but are you implying that pirate hasn't paid everyone back because Chaang Noi threw a spanner in the works to win his bet against you?
No. I'm implying that Chaang Noi is actively working -against- pirate paying out, throwing as many spanners, and attempting to convince others to throw -their- spanners in as well, in an attempt to sabotage my bet. Yes. I have witnesses-- the people he tried to convince to do his dirty bidding. Chaang Noi is not the reason why Pirate is not paying back -anyone-, he's the reason why pirate -can't- pay back -everyone-. I'll repeat-- He's actively working against Pirate at every turn so that I will lose my bet. I wonder how the community thinks about that as a "fair" bet. Matthew you need a cereal box education. As in read the box in the morning as you eat your bowl of candy-coated wheat. You see that promotion? See the part where it says "Not open to P&G employees or its affiliates"? Maybe you should consider WHY that might be printed there... When you agreed to a non-trivial bet against people who are to some degree affiliated with BST you essentially guaranteed that they would be working towards a payout on the 10th. Your post. It needs fixing. |
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Tangible Cryptography isn't an exchange more like a Bitcoin broker but we haven't been hacked.
I guess we are just too quaint and low tech. You know 100% cold storage, batch processing of orders with manual verification, enterprise grade database with host based encryption, and GPG protected messaging. All that boring stuff.
I wonder if we should consider opening an exchange?
I don't know if there would be any interest in an exchange with 100% cold storage and delayed withdraws.
YES there absolutely would be. I would use it hands down over any other service. I would much rather know that all of my coins are safe and have delayed withdrawals than have instant withdrawals with the constant threat of a hack looming over me... |
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it doesn't mean we shouldn't get law enforcement involved when thefts occur. It's computer hacking or fraud at the very least.
It doesn't mean he shouldn't get law enforcement involved. It does seem to fall within one or another of the USA 'computer abuse' laws. However, if all the existing USD in accounts as of time of hack are honored, I don't see it as a fiscal / monetary issue. At this point, bitcoins are not "money". But they are something of value, which means those who held a Bitcoin balance at the exchange have a valid claim to the remaining assets of the company in the event in a liquidation. |
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