bitfloor needs your help!

[SgtSpike]

D&T, is it possible that Bitcoin account holders could be seen as secured creditors (secured because they held an asset - bitcoins - instead of simply being a loaner of USD), and would thus be required to be paid back first?

I tried looking at cases where someone might have a secured claim on a commodity at a bankrupt company, but haven't really been able to find anything like that.

And really, I don't have much of a clue when it comes to bankruptcy law anyway.

[muyuu]

I am soliciting offers for the purchase of my 103 BTC balance at Bitfloor.

How do you plan to make the sale effective? do you sell your account?

[Entropy-uc]

I am soliciting offers for the purchase of my 103 BTC balance at Bitfloor.

How do you plan to make the sale effective? do you sell your account?

All means of Bitcoin transfers have been shutdown on bitfloor.

I would expect Roman to faciliate the tranfer of obligations to your account.

[muyuu]

I am soliciting offers for the purchase of my 103 BTC balance at Bitfloor.

How do you plan to make the sale effective? do you sell your account?

All means of Bitcoin transfers have been shutdown on bitfloor.

I would expect Roman to faciliate the tranfer of obligations to your account.

Well, I don't have an account and it's closed for registration. Other than that I'd offer 25, deal?

[Bitcoin Oz]

If theres one thing that bitcoin teaches you it is that if you give your money to a third party then no you dont own it anymore.

[Entropy-uc]

I am soliciting offers for the purchase of my 103 BTC balance at Bitfloor.

How do you plan to make the sale effective? do you sell your account?

All means of Bitcoin transfers have been shutdown on bitfloor.

I would expect Roman to faciliate the tranfer of obligations to your account.

Well, I don't have an account and it's closed for registration. Other than that I'd offer 25, deal?

Not even close.  Bitfloor in liquidation is worth at least 40% of the reported losses.  Plus gross negligence on Roman's part should make it straightforward to get a judgement against his personal assets.

[whitslack]

As I pointed out while the standing of BTC depositors may be undecided the standing of USD depositors is certainly not undecided.

I look forward to the day when valuing BTC is a no-brainer for a judge but valuing USD would be laughable. (Think Zimbabwean dollars, Weimar marks, or Confederate dollars.)

[SgtSpike]

I am soliciting offers for the purchase of my 103 BTC balance at Bitfloor.

How do you plan to make the sale effective? do you sell your account?

All means of Bitcoin transfers have been shutdown on bitfloor.

I would expect Roman to faciliate the tranfer of obligations to your account.

Well, I don't have an account and it's closed for registration. Other than that I'd offer 25, deal?

Not even close.  Bitfloor in liquidation is worth at least 40% of the reported losses.  Plus gross negligence on Roman's part should make it straightforward to get a judgement against his personal assets.

Why didn't you state up front that you were looking for at least 40% instead of berating people for sending what they believe to be a reasonable offer?

[Entropy-uc]

I am soliciting offers for the purchase of my 103 BTC balance at Bitfloor.

How do you plan to make the sale effective? do you sell your account?

All means of Bitcoin transfers have been shutdown on bitfloor.

I would expect Roman to faciliate the tranfer of obligations to your account.

Well, I don't have an account and it's closed for registration. Other than that I'd offer 25, deal?

Not even close.  Bitfloor in liquidation is worth at least 40% of the reported losses.  Plus gross negligence on Roman's part should make it straightforward to get a judgement against his personal assets.

Why didn't you state up front that you were looking for at least 40% instead of berating people for sending what they believe to be a reasonable offer?

You are the only person doing any berating in this thread.

What I did was kickoff a very necessary discussion into the valuation of Roman's presently defaulted obligations.

Do you have anything constructive to contribute?  If not, please take a Midol and the rest of your life off from posting to me.

[SgtSpike]

I am soliciting offers for the purchase of my 103 BTC balance at Bitfloor.

How do you plan to make the sale effective? do you sell your account?

All means of Bitcoin transfers have been shutdown on bitfloor.

I would expect Roman to faciliate the tranfer of obligations to your account.

Well, I don't have an account and it's closed for registration. Other than that I'd offer 25, deal?

Not even close.  Bitfloor in liquidation is worth at least 40% of the reported losses.  Plus gross negligence on Roman's part should make it straightforward to get a judgement against his personal assets.

Why didn't you state up front that you were looking for at least 40% instead of berating people for sending what they believe to be a reasonable offer?

You are the only person doing any berating in this thread.

What I did was kickoff a very necessary discussion into the valuation of Roman's presently defaulted obligations.

Do you have anything useful to contribute?  If not, please take a Midol and the rest of your life off from posting to me.

"Not even close" and stating that it is worth "at least 40%" as if the person making the offer was completely stupid for thinking it was worth anything less is pretty berating.  Especially when all you said is "send your offers," not specifying a particular amount to begin with.

I just think it's silly when people ask others to send offers, then scold them for lowballing when there was no precedent for the value of item to begin with.  If you're looking to receive a certain amount for something, then state as much up front.  Anything else is just wasting people's time.

And if you want to discuss the valuation of Roman's defaulted obligations, why not just propose said discussion?  Say, "What would you pay for a piece of Roman's default obligations, as a percentage?"  Bam.  Simple as that.  No need for people to send you useless offers that you will refuse because you're really only just looking for a valuation.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Not even close.  Bitfloor in liquidation is worth at least 40% of the reported losses.  Plus gross negligence on Roman's part should make it straightforward to get a judgement against his personal assets.

Bitfloor in liquidation (with no outside capitalization) is worth $105,000+?  Essentially the only assets are the code and brand.  While the fair mark value might be a hundred grand generally in liquidation assets go for $0.20 on the dollar or less.  Soft assets (like code, databases, customers lists, etc) go for even less.

So that would put the fair market value on Bitfloor software and brand at roughly $500K to $1M.   Pretty high valuation.  Also you have no chance of piercing the corporate veil unless you can prove criminal negligence occurred.  Also how are you going to get this judgement?  By hiring legal counsel, proving your deposit exists, proving that Bitcoins are worth damages in legal tender that the court can award, and proving criminal negligence to pierce the corporate veil?

The value of your claim is ~$1000 gross once you subtract legal fees out you will have roughly nothing even if you could accomplish all that.  25% is likely overvalued at this point.

[Entropy-uc]

Not even close.  Bitfloor in liquidation is worth at least 40% of the reported losses.  Plus gross negligence on Roman's part should make it straightforward to get a judgement against his personal assets.

Bitfloor in liquidation (with no outside capitalization) is worth $105,000+?  Essentially the only assets are the code and brand.  While the fair mark value might be a hundred grand generally in liquidation assets go for $0.20 on the dollar or less.  Soft assets (like code, databases, customers lists, etc) go for even less.

So that would put the fair market value on Bitfloor software and brand at roughly $500K to $1M.   Pretty high valuation.  Also you have no chance of piercing the corporate veil unless you can prove criminal negligence occurred.  Also how are you going to get this judgement?  By hiring legal counsel, proving your deposit exists, proving that Bitcoins are worth damages in legal tender that the court can award, and proving criminal negligence to pierce the corporate veil?

The value of your claim is ~$1000 gross once you subtract legal fees out you will have roughly nothing even if you could accomplish all that.  25% is likely overvalued at this point.

Bitfloor's revenue was over 30k / year with a very high growth rate.  I don't see 3x revenue as a very high valuation.

There need be no legal fees.  The bar in small claims cout is very low. Roman posted here using his personal account for all bitfloor business. And criminal negligence is not the bar in cases where there is a fiduciary duty.

Pirate debt is still trading at 15%.  Surely Roman's obligation and a viable, operating enterprise is worth substantially more.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Small claims court has no jurisdictional authority to pierce the corporate veil, at least not in VA and seriously doubt it can be done in NY. Filing against Roman personally would simply get it dismissed off the bat.  You certainly could file suit against Bitfloor but then any damages are owed by Bitfloor, Inc.  Bitfloor, Inc already owes you so you haven't accomplished a lot. Just my opinion but the probability of getting awarded damages is very low.  No court in the country has awarded damages based on Bitcoin losses, debts, or claims.  It is somewhat unlikely a small claims judge wants to be the first based on the incomplete evidence and lack of counsel which is common in small claims court. 

If Roman used a personal bank account for company business it "could" be used to pierce the corporate veil.  I don't recall getting any ACHs from Roman I did get ACHs from Bitfloor, Inc.  Still even with technical violations like incorrect accounts, or missed corporate meetings the court usually considers intent.  Was it a technical violation or is there evidence that the intent was to run personal finances through a sham corporations?  Depending on the evidence you *may* get the damages transfered to the owners but it would hardly be "simple".  More like a legal longshot and it isn't going to happen without retaining counsel.


The person offering 25% can likely get as much debt as he can possibly afford for less than 25%.  Good thing for him you rejected him out of hand.

[jwzguy]

I didn't see Roman post that he was using his personal account. My deposits were made to a business account. Care to link the post?

[muyuu]

Ok then, I take my offer back.

Good luck

[muyuu]

Pirate debt is still trading at 15%.  Surely Roman's obligation and a viable, operating enterprise is worth substantially more.

At 15% it's overpriced but even so 25% is a lot more than 15%.

The person offering 25% can likely get as much debt as he can possibly afford for far far less than 25%.  Good thing for him you rejected it.

I felt generous because he was the first guy to get the ball rolling

[DeathAndTaxes]

muyuu obviously valuation may change if some capital is injected into bitfloor by outside investors.

[muyuu]

muyuu obviously valuation may change if some capital is injected into bitfloor by outside investors.

Yeah well, 25 for 103 is fine considering it's a small amount. If it was a bigger quantity I wouldn't have offered that much at this point.

[Stephen Gornick]

Yeah well, 25 for 103 is fine considering it's a small amount. If it was a bigger quantity I wouldn't have offered that much at this point.

If you get confirmation that BTC amounts can be transferred account-to-account, then you'll probably find plenty of offers for cents on the dollar.

[Inaba]

I have done it in small claims court here in Kansas. Granted I don't know NY or VA law, but you absolutely can pierce the corporate veil in small claims court and it doesn't even have to be for criminal activity;  I've done it on civil cases, you just have to show either willful negligence or willful intent to use the corporations to avoid the law and the judge is more than happy to bust right through the corporation and attach the judgement to the owners.  

On an unrelated note, WTH Stephen, you just totally blowing off my PMs completely?  At least respond and tell me you're not interested.