I never contradicted myself.

I was quoting the "300 MH/s" for 5830 because people throw that number around as if it's common and everyone gets that hash rate. I personally don't get that much, because A) I don't want systems giving me problems, B) any systems I have with 2 cards close together get too hot for stable overclocking of that variety -- especially the card in the top slot.

And that last "pompous" post was taken out of context, and completely misunderstood.

Here is what I was responding to:

Maybe I'm getting old. Ok, I *know* I'm getting old, and I'm still in my 30's.

What is the world coming to, when they can't read two sentences, and need a "quick version" or "Too long, don't read"?

Cliff's notes for a 2 sentence post? Is there really anyone who can't be bothered to read the "entire" post? Come on!

Matthew

How about I call you a ex-con every day, and see if it eventually sticks?

Because it's about as true as the BS you're alleging about me.

You just vomit what others have said, never rising above a elementary school playground level of discussion or reasoning (read: name-calling).

Except I haven't ignored anything. I admit to *100% of everything that's true*

Try me.

By the way, you just invalidated yourself because I'm pretty sure I made posts today having nothing to do with Bitcoin mining profitability. When you take the time to emphasize "EVERY SINGLE TIME" (all caps) you make it easy to throw out your whole post. 1 post by me on a different topic totally destroys your credibility.

I can't help that your mind doesn't permit you any complexity in your thinking. If you think that simplistically, I can't discuss with you, sorry. We're on two different levels apparently.

And what's your problem with me telling the truth? Mining IS less profitable than it was 1, 3 or 5 weeks ago. And I never said it was unprofitable (1 BTC for the person who can find a Bitcoin.org post where I said Bitcoin mining was no longer profitable).

Ebay prices HAVE come down. What's the problem here? You don't like the situation and you wish to take out your frustration on the messenger?

I have to start topics because you armchair gestapo types don't have the creativity to come up with new topics yourselves. Yes, some people are better at leading/starting conversations. That's a fact that's observed on all fora. As you get older, you begin to notice this more and more.

By the way, did you come up with this on your own, or are you just vomiting what others have said?

Really, I'm going to have to go ahead and call you out on this one.

What doom and gloom? Can you give quotes?  Can you prove that it was some kind of scaremongering, and not simple reporting of the facts?

I'm all ears...

*crickets chirping*

Or how about we go ahead and (here's a novel idea) DISCUSS matters pertaining to Bitcoin on this Bitcoin discussion board we find ourselves on.
You and I are both free to post whatever interests us, and ignore what we couldn't care less about.

I'm not preaching a religion, I'm discussing 100% on-topic matters relevant to bitcoin mining. Faith is not required here.

If you disagree, by all means, chime in!  Tell me why! Let's get a discussion going. I have no problem with those who disagree with me.

FYI, I was talking to Sgt. Spike, not you.

Maybe "talents" was the wrong word. "Advantages", maybe?

I do understand quite well the concept of "no risk, no reward".  But the risk level has gone up considerably in the past few weeks for those buying new rigs -- that's all I'm saying.

I'm all for people who overcome obstacles. But that doesn't mean the obstacles don't exist, or that the obstacles wouldn't hinder most people.

The human spirit can overcome just about everything. It's beautiful when it does.

As they say, "The exception proves the rule." OgNasty is the exception -- the rule holds.

No, you're wrong.

Difficulty only resets every 2016 blocks, not several times a day!

By "talent" I mean particular suitability.

Not everyone is equally suited to do bitcoin mining.

The more of these traits you have, the better you will do at bitcoin mining:

In no particular order:
PC tech experience (the more the better) -- building, troubleshooting, repairing, configuring, drivers, and software.
Linux/scripting/programming experience (or, Windows experience if you choose to mine with Windows)
Working/being at home 24/7
Spare time
Access to supply of cheap (or at least market-priced) mining cards
Learning things quickly; good memory; above-average IQ
Knowledge of economics, budgeting, spreadsheets, markets
Having spare PCs, fans, cables, tables, network equipment, etc.
Having enough space (an entire room?) for lots of machines
Having an efficient central A/C unit
Living in area w/ little need for A/C
Living in area w/ cheap electricity

This is probably not an exhaustive list, but it gives you some idea of what I mean by "talent" -- more like "good situation for mining" combined with talent(s) useful for running a mining operation.

Where do you live, Alaska?

Yes, if they got super-valuable, wouldn't a bunch of people sell and bring the price back down?

And, if so, which would be better:

A) owning a $1000 rig that produces 0.64 BTC a day.
B) buying $1000 of bitcoins, or 70 BTC (at current market rate).

Because I think there would be somewhat of a "peak", which could only be capitalized on if you had your money all at once.

Yes, if you're in it for the long haul then we're not even having this discussion. Some people really want to mine -- and nothing's going to dissuade them. I personally would go with "A" because I don't mind the hassles of mining. It's not a get-rich-quick scheme for me.

But when people say "I mine, even though it's not very profitable, because BTC will quadruple in value in the next couple months", they're really not thinking it through. You'd be better off buying BTC if you really believed that -- and if making money was your motivation for mining.

You could always "cash out" when the price quadruples and then cash out and buy PC equipment if getting PC equipment is what you're after.

Matthew

I think you've been *smoking* some joints.

When you start talking about legal recourse, you should keep in mind that the average renter doesn't have deep pockets -- no offense to renters.

If renters had the resources to win a lawsuit, they probably would just BUY a house, or at least get a mortgage on a house of their own.

As they say nowadays -- "Jus' sayin!"

Don't be surprised if the circuit breakers get "tripped" once in a while, and you have to go restart all your miners a few times a week -- or a few times a day.

"Oh, those power surges are a real pain!" he'd say.

I'm sure the landlord wouldn't just take it laying down.

Grow up, please.

First, I'd like to point out that I've been into distributed computing since 2007. Nevertheless, I didn't find out about Bitcoin until May 2011. Go figure!


Just for the sake of discussion, so is that what it comes down to then?

That the people building entire rigs today should be considered the Bitcoin "faithful"?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious.

Personally I have rigs, but I'm not expanding. I'm treating it like a business. Not a get-rich-quick business, but a business.  I mine because I enjoy it and have the talent for it, so it's not JUST a way to make money -- there are countless ways I could spend my time which would be more profitable.

On the other hand, I have no reason to believe that Bitcoin will be more valuable next month, this Fall, or next year. I have no scientific reason to believe that. For business purposes, I'm planning on "more of the same" -- which is 10% difficulty increases every 10-12 days, and a Bitcoin price around $15.

And when I see payoff periods greater than 70 days, I run the other way.

Matthew

Seems the current going rate on eBay for a brand new 5830 is around $125 - $140, including shipping.

I'm looking at completed listings -- which is very important -- rather than what a few greedy sellers hope against hope to get. People can ask for $1000 all they want, but if they never get that price, the going rate isn't $1,000. Right?

I guess that explains why NewEgg still has 5830's in stock for $135 shipped. You simply can't make money at that price -- not by mining, not by reselling.

And let's not forget that even if you got $140, you have to take out eBay and Paypal fees.

What is this, everyone jumps on board now?

I thought I was the town leper for saying this a couple weeks ago, and only one person agreed with me.

Those things are not cheap. They cost multiples of $10,000 to install, even for a modest system.

So it's not "lucky you -- you get $50 in free bitcoins every month" but rather "lucky you, you could afford a $25,000 solar panel system".

What I'm saying is -- the free bitcoins is the LEAST of that person's good fortune.

Just like those who got into BTC mining in January 2011 (or earlier!) are better off, likewise those who got into the game of LIFE earlier have an advantage.
Every year, inflation eats everyone alive. Those who got "established" in the early 80's, for example, will have paid less for everything, even relative to their lower wages at the time.
Everything's more expensive, and "harder" now, since our dollar has lost more of its value than it had lost in, say, 1985.

Those people got to buy their houses when real estate was much cheaper, for example.

Plus the longer you've been working the more disposable income you tend to have, all things being equal. That is, comparing the same kind of person at 20 vs. 50 years old.