Thanks for the link. I'm still struggling to come to terms with theory of value and transformation problem and what relevance they have to current conditions. Why don't they mention the author of the theory of value by name do you think? Seems odd. "In a situation where value is measured almost strictly in dollars (i.e., as in the case of profits measured by a large company) an employee that brings in the most revenue or a manager that oversees a profitable division will be rewarded, regardless of how many hours he works." Yes, well, if value is measured in dollars the theory of value is specifically refuted, as I point out in this poorly written post (sorry): http://frass.woodcoin.org/fiat-feudalism-a-primer-for-marxists/ |
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As a physicist you know energy is plentiful, so you at least have to talk about electric power or specifically hashrate (the relevant work done for blockchain security), the latter is what is rewarded with newly issued coins. I agree that expenditure works well for value, but its the expenditure of value, not electricity that works (if we abstract other factors, the logic is that miner pays X for electricity and won't sell for less) this expenditure of value is the almost same in PoS, it just has another from (staker pays X for coins and won't sell for less), the difference is that for mining electricity is spent, and for staking only liquidity of value is spent (and so nothing is really spent as the process of reversing it costs very little relative to electrical power), this benefit brings its problems on the value side, the ease of reversing the process also means it is less effective for determining value and consequently works worse for adoption.
Interesting point about proof-of-negative-entropy, negentropy is a very useful concept for thinking about systems, however because its as general concept as entropy, I think it describes all existing proofs. Every type of cryptographic proof is a proof-of-negative-entropy, the work done to validate transactions in a blockchain exports entropy from the system because it verifies transactions and proves that the data is the same, so no new information for this specific transaction is possible. A blockchain is order that exports disorder by organizing representation of data, to optimize this entropy-export, the least ammount of value should be required for verification. Right now PoS seems to me as an improvement as it 'recycles' value for different functions, but of course there is still much room for improvement. If crypto is to be an improvement in regard to existing financial institutions, it has to deliver what the banks lack, efficient and fair risk/uncertainty/entropy managment.
The ecological issues are the same, we need more efficient ways of exporting entropy, not a decrease in energy consumption, trying to decrease consumption only potentiates the inefficiencies of the systems.
Hey, thanks for actually hashing out (no pun intended) the negative entropy thing which I had just thrown the term out there. I first heard of tying negative entropy to currency in a book by Frank Meno called "Cats, Aether, Gyrons, and the Universe: Something for Everyone". He didn't go into even as much detail as you did in that paragraph in specifics. Anyway I don't have much to add but as far as "improvement in regard to existing financial institutions" you might like this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1467410.msg14807275And on the energy analysis topic you might like this one: http://frass.woodcoin.org/msats-per-joule/Cheers  |
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Great to read you have an IQ higher than 115 and some logic skills.
Another sucker in the "IQ is a thing" scam eh? Always sad to see people fall for that. One thing we all know for sure: those who call other idiots regularly (without the necessary context for that to have meaning) have the opinion of themselves that they are unlikely to do well on any test involving imagination, empathy, or self discipline. What one calls others reflects what one thinks of ones self. What other kind of nonsense do we have here in this thread, deniers of the anthropocene age, claims that centralization of mining is equivalent to private issuance (huh?), and of course 十五岁的外国人真的知道中国人是谁。 What conclusions? We should all get some sleep, read some books and stay out of the forums for a bit. |
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Why would anyone chose to get paid in BTC, which they can't spend in 99.9% of the places they spend fiat? Or are you talking about that make-believe land of Equestria, where pastel ponies are happy to "transact" in Bits?
Because they're not a criminal and don't wish to support the counterfeiters? Because they don't wish their assets to be devalued? Because $450 is more that $1 ? It's called Earth and you will find plenty of people are willing to trade things for other things here You can negotiate the relevant quantities. Equestria is a made-up place where people only accept as valuable what a small group of teenagers say is valuable rather than looking with their eyes at marketplace activity. |
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By "all people" you mean the slave classes, rich and poor slaves both use scrip privately issued by their masters, yes.
No, by "all people" I mean "all people," as in everyone in the world, including you, Wild One. Hehe, I don't claim to be in the issuing class. Just a lowly dwarf. But if you think the queen of england, the lords, cayman, monaco, zug owners, sultan of blah blah etc. etc. take M0 fiat notes out of their pocket from time to time if they need to buy a snack, I'm not sure what you're smoking. I don't "take M0 fiat notes" either, do most of my banking online. Those digital bleeps and bloops are fiat too. Smoking Camel Filters, if that matters. American spirits here So do you think the Queen of England, Saudi Princes, Sultans, or USA money issuers and massive landowners log into consumer banking accounts from time to time? M1 is for us EBT card users, not for those who can add zeros to M1 balances at will. |
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Fiat will always be the first choice of people and there is no doubt about that, but people who are tech friendly and loves to spend time online will prefer to use bitcoin.
I'll bite, sure. What "people" would choose a privately issued scamcoin as their first choice of exchange commodity? The people who get paid in it and buy things with it. Because stores take it. The people that don't buy digital tokens in hopes of becoming fabulously wealthy by sitting on their ass, those people. No, I asked who would choose to get paid in it. Your answer "the people that chose to get paid in it" is hardly very illuminating. "Stores take it" is also hardly illuminating. People accept whatever they can in trade, we understand that the question was who would prefer private counterfeitable coins over public verifiable ones. |
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By "all people" you mean the slave classes, rich and poor slaves both use scrip privately issued by their masters, yes.
No, by "all people" I mean "all people," as in everyone in the world, including you, Wild One. Hehe, I don't claim to be in the issuing class. Just a lowly dwarf. But if you think the queen of england, the lords, cayman, monaco, zug owners, sultan of blah blah etc. etc. take M0 fiat notes out of their pocket from time to time if they need to buy a snack, I'm not sure what you're smoking. |
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Fiat will always be the first choice of people and there is no doubt about that, but people who are tech friendly and loves to spend time online will prefer to use bitcoin.
I'll bite, sure. What "people" would choose a privately issued scamcoin as their first choice of exchange commodity? |
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Well after the Panama Papers scandal ,I am not at all surprised that richest address keeps their savings in Bitcoin, its a normal reaction for anyone with a bit of a working brain. But still even with this happening, bitcoin will always be the people currency because of how easy and safe is to use it (of course when you know what you are doing) . So am not at all surprised by the trend continuing and not declining.
Fiat is the currency of the people. All people use it. By "all people" you mean the slave classes, rich and poor slaves both use scrip privately issued by their masters, yes. |
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My poster was waiting for me at home when I got back behind the iron curtain. Looks great! Thanks Nubbins, look me up on IRC  |
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It has come to my attention that a number of circulated currencies are in fact privately issued dimensionless tokens, that is, scams of the most blatant nature.
Some affected currencies: USD, CNY, EUR, JPY, GBP, ...
NOT ONLY are these coins significantly premined, but developers and hackers CONTINUE TO ISSUE THESE TOKENS IN PRIVATE.
I repeat, there is nothing at all to stop developers and hackers from issuing these tokens to themselves IN ANY QUANTITY AT ANY TIME.
And further, there is no way for us to know how many are thusly issued!!
Wow. Talk about scammy, eh? No other coin in this forum is such a blatant scam as that. But wait, it gets worse:
1) No transactions are ever publicly confirmed! That's right, there is no public transaction record. Block time is effectively infinity.
2) Significant association of these currencies exists with criminality of all the worst types from pedophilia to terrorism
3) Completely unregulated money supply, no public oversight is possible.
4) Proceeds from the private issuance of these tokens and selling them to unsuspecting public has been used in the most
atrocious and wasteful activities in history from massive environmental destruction to warfare.
Be advised: participation in such a scam as this is unlikely to be forgiven. Spread the word and be vigilant to avoid any contact with these tokens.
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I mean that if you can exchange currency tokens for energy (i.e. "buy gas") you will do so with consideration for how easy it was to obtain said tokens.
Right? If you had to bust your ass for a few proof of work tokens, you might be less willing to spend them all on joyriding in a gas-guzzler.
Now consider if you received the tokens not because of work, but simply because you had previously obtained a stake. Now, you (not everybody, but you) got quite a few tokens without doing any work.
How about that joy-ride in the gas guzzler now? Still not? Maybe with a bit of peer pressure from that special friend?
The point: Free money leads to wasteful spending decisions.
Unlimited private free money leads thusly always to unmitigated disaster, but that's called "fiat" and is another story.
First the distinction between mining as work and staking as free is unfounded, staking requires the (arguably) same type of work mining does, but it requires less electricity to do it. Secondly, I disagree with your points on spending, they seem to be very close to 'trickle down economics' thats used to justify giving free money given to the most wealthy. Free money does not imply spending, this has been shown not to work again and again. And in any case, spending itself is not the same as wastefulness, while spending in general is good for the economy and the problems of fiat are more a confusion of cause and effect (they see that in prosperous economies there is a lot of spending, then they try to force spending to achieve prosperous economies and fail), wastefulness is the spending where value is destroyed and where there exists a viable alternative where this same value would be preserved. OK sorry if I wasn't clear. My background is in physics. By "work" I mean specifically force times distance, a quantity with units of Energy. You are right, staking does require a nonzero amount of this work (energy expended), however the work required (the energy required) is not proportional to the amount of public coin issued. Tying issuance per token to energy expenditure makes a whole lot of sense, from a "theory of value" perspective and also from a energy-budget-for-society perspective. PoS might work and might even have some advantages in avoiding mining centralization but as far as the energy footprint goes: PoW is the best we have. Once we have a proof-of-negative-entropy coin I will change that statement. I also didn't mean to imply that free money implies spending in the sense of helping the economy, you are right to criticize that viewpoint. |
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Incorrect. You are ignoring part of the logic as to why the fascist command economy in China is facilitating the bit CON: The only relevance of China, is that China has the right Communist corruption to facilitate building these ASIC mining farms with much lower cost, because the electricity is likely subsidized at near 0 cost to the miner by the State. For example, the $billions spent by the taxpayers to construct the environmental disaster Three Gorges Dam (actually in China the tax is the low interest rate paid on savings accounts offered by State controlled banking which the LGUs then borrow at near 0%). The ostensible fact that China is a totalitarian/fascist command economy is relevant in the sense that it means the owners of the mining farms are necessarily beholden to the Communist Party leaders and their commands.
[...]
 Replace "China" with "USA" and Three Gorges with Hoover. Notice nothing changes, except of course your claims of "fascism" and central control ring much more true in the police state. Fiat and fascism leave misery and environmental destruction in their wake but that is neither here nor there for this discussion. They blocked Bitcoin Classic and XT and appear to be deciding for the us that SegWit is the protocol hard fork that will be forced on all of us. And there is not a damn thing any of us can or will do about it. Note the Great Firewall (GFW) of China is not a valid argument to be against larger blocks, because the pool server could be located outside and only the hash of the block needs to be sent across the GFW.
"They" didn't decide anything apart from what software "they" would run, for any value of "they". Running another wallet won't help you. Your inaction and lack of understanding means they can put the Trojan Horse in and then there is nothing more we can do about it. We are screwed. You are very much a sheep and I hope you remain a sheep for the rest of your life. I won't be able to stop the fact that the masses like you are dumber than horse shit. That is why the-powers-that-be don't care if I warn you all here. They know you readers are sheep and will always be sheep. They laugh. I am starting to laugh at you all too. I tried my best to explain to you all, and instead I get these inane replies. Sorry if my reply is ad hominem. I really prefer to not think you are dumber than horse shit. I really do. You don't afford me that opportunity. I am frustrated. I give up. I will not talk to you fools any more. Have it your way.
LOLK. They can put a trojan horse in what exactly now? If nobody runs their software, who cares what's in it?
BitCON is also a privately issued corporate scrip issued to a few owners of mining farms. The electricity is charged to the taxpayer, not to the-powers-that-be which defacto "own" these mining farms.
Dude I have a list of every coin ever mined. You have access to that list as well. That's what public coin means. What the everliving fuck? Privately issued???!?? The public coin known as BTC runs on excess electricity as it always has. |
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- Geographical Location Is Irrelevant: please stop making the inane disingenuous strawman alleging this thread is concerned about where the concentration of hashing power is located. The problem is that the economies-of-scale of profitable proof-of-work forces the concentration the mining control into a few ASIC mining farms. I explained why this is technically and economically inexorable and unavoidable in my prior two posts, which are linked for you above. The only relevance of China, is that China has the right Communist corruption to facilitate building these ASIC mining farms with much lower cost, because the electricity is likely subsidized at near 0 cost to the miner by the State. For example, the $billions spent by the taxpayers to construct the environmental disaster Three Gorges Dam (actually in China the tax is the low interest rate paid on savings accounts offered by State controlled banking which the LGUs then borrow at near 0%). The ostensible fact that China is a totalitarian/fascist command economy is relevant in the sense that it means the owners of the mining farms are necessarily beholden to the Communist Party leaders and their commands.
- Bitcoin Has Already Been 51% Attacked: to argue that the oligarchy of miners and mining pools in China won't abuse their control is disingenuous because they already have! They blocked Bitcoin Classic and XT and appear to be deciding for the us that SegWit is the protocol hard fork that will be forced on all of us. And there is not a damn thing any of us can or will do about it. So please sopt the inane argument that they won't 51% attack BitCON when they have already done so. Ostensibly the reason they are supporting SegWit is because what the miners want is the ability to constrict the block size so that they can maximize transaction fees at the maximum level the market will bear. They obviously won't allow transaction fees to go so high that no one uses BitCON any more, but they also will make sure they extract more than the $1million a day they are extracting from our pockets now. We tinfoil hats complain about how the government steals from us with fiat inflation, yet then we don't complain when the oligarchy of miners are doing the same thing! We are so gullible and stoopid, it is not surprising that the-powers-that-be think we are useless eaters and cattle fodder.
- Segregrated Witness Includes A Diabolical Trojan Horse: the technology for scaling in SegWit is dubious, but that is not the major issue of concern with it. Instead of issuing SegWit has a normal hard fork which miners can vote on by which protocol they mine, Blockstream (Bitcoin core devs) is changing the Bitcoin protocol in such a way that in the future they can introduced versioned "soft fork" changes to the protocol. This is actually very diabolical if you think carefully about it. What this means is that there can exist transactions on the block chain which can only be handled by a miner who supports the version of the protocol which that transaction was signed to. So while they label this as a "soft fork", meaning that it is optional for miners, in reality it is a very insidious way of forcing a hard fork on all miners because little-by-little new transactions are written to the new version of the protocol and then miners who don't switch to the new version can't process the newer transactions. So in effect this puts Blockstream in control of the protocol of Bitcoin and we the users basically lose our power to rally a political decision about a hard fork. Why? Because insidious changes are very difficult for people to rally a group to defend against. This is a very clever paradigm of divide-and-conquer that was employed by the Rothschilds and Rockefellers. They always want to destroy you insidiously while you are not aware. And I believe my criticism is the underlying real reason that Gregory Maxwell is nuking my posts and fighting me. Apparently theymos is also corrupt, or has been hoodwinked by the Gman.
- Decentralization Is The Only Difference From Fiat: those who argue that decentralization is not that important, are in effect arguing that fiat is acceptable. Those who argue that Satoshi intended Bitcoin to centralize over time are probably correct. I also argue that "Satoshi Nakamoto" is the House of Morgan's creation, he is not one person but rather a diabolical group, and BitCON was designed to con those tinfoil hat geeks who want "a better gold". Did you not read the Bitcoin white paper carefully where it seems to attack the existing system of financial institutions for internet transactions in the first page and then in distribution section it pitches BitCON as a better gold. The white paper wasn't an academic only paper, but also a very well targeted marketing advertisement. That you all idolize Satoshi as giving us some great technological gift is all the more hilarious, because obviously he did not solve the Byzantine Generals Problem, and he gave us a profitable proof-of-work design which MUST centralize. However there is another wrinkle to this. The design Satoshi gave us, leads TPTB_need_war to a new design which is UNprofitable proof-of-work, and that design may not centralize (so easily). So it is possible that while I believe "Satoshi Nakamoto" was a secret group formed by the-powers-that-be to siphon $1 million a day from the tinfoil hat crowd, it is possible that one of those intelligent men working in that group actually expected that maybe someone would be resourceful enough to figure out how to fix the design. So in that way, maybe the good spirit of human kind is still in play.
- Bitcoin Can't Be Fixed: those who are deluded into thinking that Bitcoin could somehow morph and be fixed from its current design and circumstance, are dumber than horse shit. Do I really need to explain.
 Fixing Bitcoin with all the ingrained inertia and vested interests is equivalent to those who argue that the governments can be fixed and that world won't collapse into a horrific global debt implosion Minsky Moment roughly 2018. These are the same type of people who don't put plywood on their windows when a hurricane is approaching and then blame for FEMA for not rescuing them.
Thanks for your interesting posts in this thread 1) Geographical Location is Irrelevant. Thank you! We can just stop there with that statement and move on. Personally I just got back from another trip to the capitalist and haven known as China, and have my own opinions about various different dialects, ethnic groups, provinces, competing powers, projects, firewalls, etc. As you said it's irrelevant. The only reason to mention a nation further in this kind of discussion other than as an identifier is to let people know you are immature and can easily be ignored. I mean what is this, an appeal to racism? Lol. 2) Segregated Witness Includes a Diablocal Trojan Horse. Color me unfrightened by blockstream's trojan horse here. Perhaps I haven't seen what they are going to release yet, but hey - if it's not open source and understood only fools will run it. Let them push whatever nonsense if that's what they are up to. Sure, I share your skepticism and conservatism but not your fear. I can always run another wallet and request my TX in whatever form I like. 3) Decentralization is the only difference from Fiat Wow, I could scarcely disagree more here. WTEF? Fiat is a privately released dimensionless token!! Bitcoin is a public coin!! The money supply is public and every unit is tied to an expenditure of energy. Public money!! Publicly verified transactions!! How can you say this is anything like privately issued dimensionless corporate scrip, where nobody ever knows how much is being issued and no transactions are ever verified? Making an apple slightly more rough and round doesn't make it an orange. 4) Bitcoin can't be fixed The thing continues to work as advertised 8 years ago with almost no changes. What are you trying to fix? My guess is that your car broke down and you are blaming "the wheel". And btw you are wrong about altcoins too. They also work as advertised and do very much have enough security and traction for use as exchange commodities. |
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It is PoS that encourages more waste of energy resources, as tokens are not physically tied to energy. What do you mean? I mean that if you can exchange currency tokens for energy (i.e. "buy gas") you will do so with consideration for how easy it was to obtain said tokens. Right? If you had to bust your ass for a few proof of work tokens, you might be less willing to spend them all on joyriding in a gas-guzzler. Now consider if you received the tokens not because of work, but simply because you had previously obtained a stake. Now, you (not everybody, but you) got quite a few tokens without doing any work. How about that joy-ride in the gas guzzler now? Still not? Maybe with a bit of peer pressure from that special friend? The point: Free money leads to wasteful spending decisions. Unlimited private free money leads thusly always to unmitigated disaster, but that's called "fiat" and is another story. |
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I think that there are a number of reasons this would be beneficial but the main one would be a reduction in the huge amount of energy wasted in mining
explain the nature of this so-called "waste". I'm going to give you a head-start: you can't Carlton Banks has it. PoW is built to run on any amount of excess energy. Any epsilon will do. Bitcoin would run on a microjoule per year if that was all we could spare. It is PoS that encourages more waste of energy resources, as tokens are not physically tied to energy. Of course PoS is much better than fiat, which ties everything to fraud, but that's another story. |
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Do you think if BTC had a stable price which could only be altered by $0.01-0.10 it would still be as popular and as used?
"If USD had a stable price (0.002 to 0.001) ... " It's just not possible. USD is a privately issued dimensionless token. The value of such could never be stable at any other value than 0. |
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Bitcoin is basically destroyed now with 70% of the mining controlled by China, soon to be 98+%, and with Blockstream implementing their SegWit soft fork Trojan Horse so as Matonis admits can end up increasing the 21 million coins limit.
The entire ecosystem is headed for a clusterfuck.
I honestly believe this is the truth. What is there to add ? ~CfA~ Lol! Controlled by "China". What would that even mean? 我们都是中国人 (somos todos americaņos) Anyway, your ability to toss loose identifiers (such as "chinese") into a conversation doesn't destroy diddly squat. Bitcoin doesn't care what language you speak nor what so-called borders you live within. Grow up already. |
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GITHUB REPO REBASE
The github repo was becoming unusable due to 300MB of history in the .git folder.
I renamed it to /funkshelper/woodcoin-historical.git
and put the current code in /funkshelper/woodcoin.git
This may cause problems if you are issuing "git pull" to your current repo.
It is recommended that you stash changes and start out with a fresh clone.
Please let us know if there are any issues!
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