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41  Economy / Speculation / Re: Falllling is right again, Bitcoin will continue the downtrend on: October 22, 2014, 03:47:15 PM
I agree with ravenjt.  The amount of groupthink in the forums is getting progressively worse.  Moderating away only the negative ones does nothing but make the forums more biased.

Falling's posts are stupid...  But not any more stupid than those that are blindly optimistic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink
42  Economy / Speculation / Re: No weekend dump on: October 20, 2014, 07:56:00 PM
Just edited my post but you got my idea. We need miners to stop competing with each other and unite and drive up the price so we all profit.
Too bad humans are not born with cooperation in mind. Cooperation only works if its a win-win or me-first Smiley

The intent of bitcoin was to create a peer to peer decentralized network to demonstrate a non-governmental controlled digital currency is possible.

It was not created to be a get rich quick scheme for miners or speculators.  The future you propose would accelerate the demise of bitcoin and migration to a different 2.0 peer to peer digital currency platform.
43  Economy / Speculation / Re: Losing faith on: October 20, 2014, 07:30:09 PM
Why are we going down Sad ?

Supply outweigh demand.
Correct.

Why?
44  Economy / Speculation / Re: The BTC market is becoming like the alt pump and dump game on: October 17, 2014, 02:45:07 PM
]It is really not possible to make these kinds of predictions with any level of accuracy. The short term movements of the prices of any security is generally random and can be influenced by a large number of factors. It is only the long term price that can be more accurately predicted.
We don't want your fundamental understanding or logic.  This sub forum is only for emotion and feelings.  And the occasional "My mom is a psychic and she said..."
45  Economy / Speculation / Re: Abandon BTC on: October 10, 2014, 01:20:13 PM
Nice OP.  A few thoughts jump to mind:

1. There is a very large number of overly optimistic speculators hoping that this lottery ticket will pay off.  They will quickly dismiss it without giving any real thought.
2. I share your opinion that its time to look toward who will be the 2.0 leader in the crypto currency space.  There are so many clones that are nothing but penny stock pump and dump schemes.
3. Ethereum has a lot of potential but its really early.  They seem to have a good vision, principals and now capital.  Even so, none of that matters if they are not able to deliver something that is viable.  Also it will take time to earn trust as you have pointed out.
4. My prediction is a handful of viable alternatives will wait in the wings until there is some crisis of confidence in bitcoin and then there will be a quick migration to one of them.
46  Economy / Speculation / Re: Why the bitcoin price was under so much downward pressure on: October 08, 2014, 09:09:37 PM
A few years back when mining was a community endeavor you may have had a some percentage who decided to keep the coins rather than sell them right away to cover costs.  Not so anymore.  With today's mining realities I would guess at least 80% get sold off right away to cover buying equipment and paying for electricity.


You guess.

Have a look at the daily volume across the exchanges combined. Compare that to the coins produced by mining daily. Realise that mining sell pressure is a minor part price discovery for bitcoin. Two years ago there were twice as many coins produced each day flooding into bitcoin and far fewer people in the bitcoin scene - the price fell right?

Yep, its my educated guess based on how mining has evolved these past two years.  I used that word intentionally because there is no way to know for sure what it is.  I don think its low as miners have real costs that they need to recover.  If they have money left over after paying off what they invested they may speculate with the profit.  Profit has become hard to get with many miners having trouble breaking even so they don't have coins to hold...

Question on the combined daily exchange volume.  On a heavy volume day with lots of activity the same money is often being used to buy and sell.  What does that have to do with estimating the amount of inflows needed just to satisfy the built in inflation from newly created coins?

Two years ago 7200 bitcoins were created each day.  The price in 2012 gradually increased from around $5 per coin to around $13 per coin.  @ 5$ per coin it required $36,000 per day and @ $13 per coin it required $93,600 per day.  Over time more than that flowed in raising the price.

I think what your saying is the volume of coins newly created are small compared to the overall exchange volume but I think they are different things.
47  Economy / Speculation / Re: Why the bitcoin price was under so much downward pressure on: October 08, 2014, 07:40:26 PM
Long term trends are more likely a simple function of supply and demand.  I think it would be prohibitively expensive to try to push it consistently up or down for a long period of time.

3600 Coins are mined each day.  @ $350 a coin that's $1,260,000 each day that needs to come in to the market just to maintain the current price.
If one wants to profit from manipulating the market it does not require long term sustained manipulation up or down.  You can make plenty off short bursts up and down if you know in advance which way it will go requiring a lot less capital.

Why do people keep making this claim?  This assumes every coin generated is sold on the market.

A few years back when mining was a community endeavor you may have had a some percentage who decided to keep the coins rather than sell them right away to cover costs.  Not so anymore.  With today's mining realities I would guess at least 80% get sold off right away to cover buying equipment and paying for electricity.
48  Economy / Speculation / Re: Why the bitcoin price was under so much downward pressure on: October 08, 2014, 05:28:16 PM
Long term trends are more likely a simple function of supply and demand.  I think it would be prohibitively expensive to try to push it consistently up or down for a long period of time.

3600 Coins are mined each day.  @ $350 a coin that's $1,260,000 each day that needs to come in to the market just to maintain the current price.
If one wants to profit from manipulating the market it does not require long term sustained manipulation up or down.  You can make plenty off short bursts up and down if you know in advance which way it will go requiring a lot less capital.
49  Economy / Speculation / Re: For those who have no idea what to do on: October 05, 2014, 05:21:25 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis

When things start getting messy and emotions run high, I often find it's useful to remind myself of the basics.  Accordingly, this is a post aimed at those who, over the past few weeks, have become increasingly emotional and panicky about BTC price.

What should you do?  Should you sell?  Should you buy?  Should you HODL?  Should you diversify?  Ultimately, these are unknowns, and the more you focus on the unknown, the less you focus on what is knowable.

So, what is knowable?  Systems Theory is an *extremely* broad, overarching theory of systems in general.  Depending on what discipline Systems Theory is applied to, it will look slightly different and certain systemic aspects will be highlighted over others.  But, the core ideas behind Systems Theory are applicable to virtually everything.  Absolutely everything and anything is a system -- I'm a system, you're a system, and this community is a system.  Most relevant to this post is that the Bitcoin market is a small, economic system nested within much larger economic systems.

Why is this basic knowledge useful?  All systems have some basic properties that, at the very least, can help us to understand the context in which the Bitcoin market exists in relation to other economic markets.

Let's first address some characteristics of all systems:

1) Entropy -- All systems are prone to entropy or decay over time, and will continue to do so without outside influence.

2) Homeostasis -- Homeostasis is a state of balance within a system, and is often achieved when systemic input is delicately balanced by systemic output.   A system in a state of total or near-total homeostasis can be described as stable.  A system not in a state of homeostasis can be described as volatile.

3) Input -- energy flowing into a system from external systems.

4) Output -- energy flowing out of a system into other, external systems.

Example:
Imagine a human being.  From the moment you are born, you are subject to entropy.  You will decay and die without some additional source of energy in the form of received input from some external system (e.g. food, oxygen, etc).  But, simply receiving this input will not guarantee your continued existence.   This systemic input needs to be counterbalanced by systemic output (e.g. excretion, etc.).  The absence of one or the other will lead to a quick death, and extreme imbalances between systemic input and output will cause systemic volatility that can threaten systemic collapse.

Applying Systems Theory to Bitcoin:
This post isn't intended to give you a formula for determining the cause of every tiny movement, but rather to provide some general considerations so that you can place the current state of Bitcoin in a more reasonable context.  Accordingly, here are a few of those considerations, though this is by no means an exhaustive or even comprehensive list:

1) Bitcoin is still a tiny economic system nested among larger ones.  This implies that smaller amounts of systemic input/output will have a larger impact on Bitcoin than they would on some larger economic system.  This is obvious -- simply imagine how, for example, the influx of $1 billion in new money might affect the Bitcoin market vs. how it might affect Google stock.

2) Bitcoin has experienced several phases of enormous systemic input that was not counterbalanced by systemic output.  The rise to the $32 in June 2011 was the first example, the rise to $266 was a second example, and the rise to >$1000 was the third.   These are all examples of periods in which systemic input was grossly mismatched with systemic output.  The inevitable result of these scenarios is systemic imbalance or a lack of homeostasis, thereby increasing the chances of systemic collapse.

3) Bitcoin is not self-correcting.  It is inherently linked to external systems from and to which energy is transferred.  This dependence upon other systems is specifically what removes any guarantee whatsoever of recovery.  

For the dense, let me repeat and highlight that last sentence:  This dependence upon other systems is specifically what removes any guarantee whatsoever of recovery.

4) Volatility doesn't care which direction you're moving or whether you're making or losing money, it is simply a reflection of instability within a system.  Although I'm certainly generalizing a bit with this next example, it's equally 'bad' in terms of instability whether the price goes up $100 in a day or falls $100.  Accordingly, you shouldn't be looking to your trading success or lack thereof as an indicator of market health.

Again, this list is extremely short and by no means comprehensive, but I thought I'd get the ball rolling with some general advice (Note:  I am NOT a licensed professional).  I like people, which means that I generally like all of you, and I don't enjoy reading stories of people making investment decisions that end up ruining their lives.  So, here goes:

1)  To HODLers, there is absolutely 0% guarantee of a price recovery, and it is absolutely possible for this system to die.

2)  Systemic death can begin at any price.  Volatility and a lack of homeostasis lead to systemic death, not a low price.

3)  However, as Bitcoin grows, its resistance to systemic death increases.  Furthermore, as systemic output grows to match systemic input, the chances of re-establishing a homeostatic state increase.  Consequently, even this precipitous price drop from the ATH over the course of nearly a year is not conclusive evidence of a dying Bitcoin market, but possibly of one that is mending and healing itself.  This is directed towards the doomsday prophets on this forum.

4)  Avoid extreme positions.  Don't commit yourself to sinking with the ship, but also don't pretend icebergs can't or don't exist.

**Note: For the record, I released the majority of my holdings between $600-$850 but still have some stake in this market.

very insightful.  Thank you.
50  Economy / Speculation / Re: why the bitcoin price is going down ? on: October 04, 2014, 04:20:36 PM
1. Still coming off a bubble.
2. There are 650,000 BTC ($221,000,000 USD @ $340) stolen MTGOX coins being sold off not so slowly
3. The mining community is done.  They cant compete with the big guys.  Centralization
4. 3600 bitcoins are created each day.  @ $340 USD that is $1,224,000 that needs to come in to the market each day just to stay @ $340.

I don't think it will collapse completely.  I think it will stabilize around $100-$200.  Barely profitable to keep the big boys mining.  There has been a lot of adoption.  I think it's likely bitcoin will get replaced by something like Ethereum or another new entrant in the next 2-5 years.
51  Economy / Speculation / Re: Do you think Willy and Markus (MtGox bots) were behind the last two BTC bubbles? on: September 30, 2014, 10:03:16 PM
x Missing option:
The bots acted as a catalyst, increasing the bubble well beyound reasonable size. Likely BTC were bought with none existing fiat.

Personal conclusions (ymmv):
The $/BTC price would have never reached the "real" levels. Ranges of 200-300 $/BTC would have been more likely.
The resulting blow to the BTC ecosystem will have long reaching consequences (MTGox wasnt the first, but the biggest) resulting in lost invester confidence.
The resulting spike resulted in to much enthusiasm. This caused unreasonable expenses in directly attached "industries". Especially mining companies will go broke. The attached "stink of fail" will linger for a long time.

Personal opinion:
The bots were very bad for BTC, while the short term price increase looked nice the consquences are detrimental.

Agree completely with your points.  Especially with the bots being a catalyst that took whatever bubble was happening and "teased" it up faster and higher than it would have gone on its own.  Lots of money was pouring in; from China especially.  The bots amplified it.
52  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin Crashing Again.... on: September 28, 2014, 05:47:42 PM
..............

My conclusion, based on 45 years of living in the United States and watching just how rapacious it's government is, is that it will happen at some point. I am of the opinion that the bitcoin protocol and community are resilient enough to withstand it, but saying that it cannot happen or even that it's unlikely seems too complacent. But adoption will have to reach larger scales by quite a lot before they feel that threatened. Right now it's a diversion and cause for some concern to them. That can change. We want that to change. But we should NEVER be complacent when dealing with something that can potentially break a 500 plus year stranglehold on monetary exchange.

It's more fun looking at the United States as an outsider Smiley
I strongly believe that the United States is already working on a plan B and C to kill bitcoin.
Plan A is watch it kill itself and never become a currency.

Since P2P filesharing is hard to stop I don't think they can ever stop Bitcoin. Trying to stop it now would only make it more interesting.

Why kill bitcoin? We all know how the fiat situation of the USA is. Bitcoin would be like having an accounting firm checking your bookkeeping. There is no escape, your can't fake your books.
Printing money will no longer be possible and countries (incl. USA) would need to earn their money just like their citizens. Waging war would be a costly business so I also believe that the world might even become a better place.

What makes you think it wasn't the US government that launched bitcoin?  We need a replacement/backup currency in place for when the US national debt reaches a level that the US dollar begins to collapse.  http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Rather than passing the global financial leadership position on to the next emerging economic leader you simply change the rules...
53  Economy / Speculation / Without huge buy on 9.23.2014 where would the price be today? on: September 26, 2014, 02:13:50 PM
We hovered around 400 for a few days then shot up to 450 on 9.23.2014 and now we are back to 400 within a couple days.  If that big injection had not happened on 9.23 would we be around 350 or even lower?

I know this is impossible to say for sure but I want perspective from those who try to quantify/model supply and demands affect on price.
54  Economy / Speculation / Re: My mother's a psychic, here's what she says about BTC on: September 26, 2014, 04:43:13 AM
...don't ask me for proof as I won't give any.

My favorite part of the post.  Cant...  stop...  laughing!!!!
55  Economy / Speculation / Re: POLL! Are you Perma-Bull, Perma-Bear, or somewhere in between? on: September 26, 2014, 04:33:32 AM
Why wont falling or one of his alts take my Poll?

Sample size is real small but I'm suprised at how inbalanced the bias is.  Much more that I would have expected.
56  Economy / Speculation / POLL! Are you Perma-Bull, Perma-Bear, or somewhere in between? on: September 24, 2014, 07:12:55 PM
Someone else recently posted a poll if we will have another ATH and the response was surprisingly optimistic.  Most people in this forum have a bias of some sort.  I’d like to gauge how people identify themselves:

Perma-Bull = Price will continue to rise reaching $10K, $100K, etc (HODL!, ToDaMoon)
Lean Bullish = Price may fluctuate up and down for a while but I’m certain we will see a new ATH in the next 12-24 months
Neither Bull or Bear = I think we will oscillate for quite some time in the $300 - $600 level for the next 12-24 months
Lean Bearish = Fundamental doubts.  Price will continue to slide slowly down to 300 or lower.  Sky is not falling but we are not done unwinding from the bubble last year.
Perma-Bear = Bitcoin will collapse.  It’s only a matter of time.  Cut your loose!
57  Economy / Speculation / Re: Do you honestly think Bitcoin's price will have another ATH (all time high)? on: September 24, 2014, 05:39:06 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

Better to rely on your own critical thinking than to follow the herd.
58  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin is not a get rich quick scheme on: September 05, 2014, 02:55:29 PM
I think we just have to revise the "hype cycle" graph, and accept that we are at a point where we won't follow that exponential trendline no more.

I think we will stay at these prices for longer than people imagine.

Bitcoin adoption is still in early stage. $6 billions is just a tiny drop in ocean of finances. It's new technology and it's expanding.
Imagine BTC price when at least 1% of world population start using it.


Agreed but assuming bitcoin is so perfect in its creation that it could not possibly be supplanted by new entrant that is fundamentally superior in some way(s) is naive.  Every company or technology evolves over time and all are replaced by a different 2.0 eventually.  I think bitcoin is most similar to file sharing.  Its a disruptive system/protocol meant to shake up and re-write the rules in regards to financial transactions.  Think about how file sharing evolved.  The peer-to-peer decentralization in bitcoin came from the evolution of file sharing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_file_sharing

I love Bitcoin and have been an early supporter.  I don't think bitcoin is in danger of immanent collapse but I also don't think its too far out that it may be replaced by a 2.0 new entrant.  Possibly ethereum.  We'll see.
While there a few areas of concern with bitcoin in its present form by far the most troubling is the centralization of mining.  Its getting less decentralized and less peer-to-peer.
59  Economy / Speculation / Re: To all the "bears": why are you here? on: September 03, 2014, 03:27:42 PM
Yes, why are you bears here if you don't believe in bitcoin? To buy cheap bitcoins perhaps?  Cheesy

I'm equally annoyed by both perma-bears and perma-bulls.  When I contribute my perspective I hope to get other differing perspectives to evolve my understanding and perspective.  There are too many cheerleaders in here for each extreme that do nothing but add noise...
60  Economy / Speculation / Re: There's your wall staring you in the face... Still no one buys on: September 02, 2014, 10:12:30 PM
Ethereum sales finally wrap up tomorrow.

The drop will stop as soon as people sending them bitcoin.

I would guess the ethereum sale likely drove the price up on bitcoin over the past few weeks.  To date they have pulled in 31,528 coins and only sold something like 3,737.  As they unload the remaining 27,791 coins THAT will put steady down pressure on the price.  I would guess they would feather it in over time but I wouldn't rule out some hard dumps.

Ethereum wallet
https://blockchain.info/address/36PrZ1KHYMpqSyAQXSG8VwbUiq2EogxLo2
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