Look, I'm not one of those super pro Bitcoin evangelists that say Bitcoin is everything and then some. It's definitely got its limitations but you're really not being creative if you think you can't use Bitcoin for anything other than to hold and look at (I don't even open my wallet to look at it, I just know roughly how much it holds and then only see its amount every now and then when I'm adding to it).

I've never owned gold before (to use the example you used) but that's less because I wasn't interested and more because of access. Now if you had gold right now, tell me how soon do you think you'd be able to use it for the specifics you mentioned? How soon and how easily would you be able to find a buyer to liquidate your gold too, in the specific amount you had?

With Bitcoin, I could do all this in mere minutes, either directly with my BTC or selling it right away to someone local (also in mere minutes), if I needed to:
- pay for bills
- make a purchase
- send emergency money
- convert my assets

I want aesthetics? In my last post before this, I explained how I bought a pretty gold-plated wallet to store a bit for someone to hold and admire (again, not my thing but hey, whatever rocks your Bitcoin boat).

Consider quote a part of my message and not the entire message. It'd be less annoying.

Which is regulated by the regime. I can't setup a federal reserve system as that'd be illegal. It's legal for the banks, because the government says so.

I'm taking an example where they haven't borrowed anything. I own every cent of all the banks and I'm ready to lend to anyone who'll ask for new loans. This is what you're doing too with the BTC.

Neither is Bitcoin intended to be observed in your screen. Also, both are capital if two individuals say so.

I think I was clear enough when I implied that I don't trust the banking system for living. That I trust something which promotes principles proportional to my character, such as free speech, freedom of choice and free markets. Understand that people may have different socio-political beliefs.

Let's assume you're the owner of a number $40,000,000,000. But, no one wants those anymore, because the socio-political regime is overthrown. What can you do with $40,000,000,000, which can be inflated anytime by the way in contrast with your 19,000,000 BTC.

If we're going to take completely hypothetical scenarios, be my guest.

It's advisable to mention that there are many kinds of value, e.g., personal value, intrinsic value, market value. Value should not be unconsciously translated to price.

They can neither eat the shares. There has to be a supposed agreement between the parties, whether that's legally enforced or not. You don't like that. You've invested your time to create these videos that you've become biased. You keep thinking of Bitcoin as a number in a database, but you don't comprehend that it helps some people's lives.

Maybe that's the problem with you. You don't believe that people can live all by themselves. You remind me of this:

Okay, so you playing stupid now? Don't make things up to fit your needs.
In simple terms, value is the market price of something (or its monetary worth, according to the most-common definition).

value noun
val·​ue | \ ˈval-(ˌ)yü  \

Definition of value
1: the monetary worth of something : MARKET PRICE
2: a fair return or equivalent in goods, services, or money for something exchanged
3: relative worth, utility, or importance
4: something (such as a principle or quality) intrinsically valuable or desirable
5: a numerical quantity that is assigned or is determined by calculation or measurement
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/value

funny part is..
antithesis thinks he can live off of shares. he thinks he can buy a pizza using shares..
.. good thing i have btc, i can buy pizza with btc.

while he starves himself investing in shares, i will feed myself using btc

Maybe he even tried to live off of the sunset pictures? I hope they weren't lead-based oil paints (which would actually explain some things).

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/lead/health.html

And how will I compare 2022's dollars with 2032's? You're contradicting yourself.

Nope. It may tell you the amount of dollars you'll have, but not their future purchasing power.

Maybe not, but that's the closest thing we have since there's never been anything like it before. By the same measure, we can't compare it to numbers in an excel spreadsheet either, right? Because, obviously, it has some value (at least for now) whereas the numbers in excel are pretty much worthless.


Yes, but that's poor people thinking. Each investment comes with certain risks; the question is how much risk you are willing to take. In the case of cryptocurrencies, history has shown that the risk has certainly paid off, but it is definitely not for the fainthearted.  

Btw, what do you mean, "I never keep my money for so long"? What do you do with it, if it's not a secret?


The truth is, we can't. No one can. That's the fun part.  

But, you don't. That's the funny part. No one tells you that you'll have that 90% in 10 years in the same way no one tells me that people won't use Bitcoin in 10 years. There's uncertainty, but I bet for the latter.

I don't think there's one. Initial coin offering isn't fair distribution, so in my opinion, it already starts illegitimately.

Although this is a highly simplified description, you are basically right. This is exactly what all Bitcoin investors have been doing for years. Just as with the Wal-Marts and Macy's of the 1980s and 1990s, people are realizing they can get huge returns by investing in penny stocks (yes, even the internet one) and hoping to strike it rich. Unfortunately, while the Wal-Marts of the 1980s and 1990s had sensible rules around securities and protecting investors, those rules are totally absent in the cryptocurrency industry. It is completely unregulated, and the only way to prove that you have been in compliance is to use the coin's blockchain. So even though many penny stocks were fraudulent or otherwise had other problems, investors could use the SEC to settle disputes and do their due diligence. Cryptocurrencies have no such tools and no such oversight.

But that doesn't mean that every cryptocurrency is a scam or that all are a scam. Like penny stocks, not every blockchain project is a bubble that is destined to pop. There are legitimate ICOs out there and legitimate blockchain projects. The technology that runs Bitcoin and Ethereum is enormously promising. The financial benefits to using a blockchain technology to secure transactions are, in my opinion, clear. For example, Bitcoin's great strength is that it is widely used and accepted worldwide as a means of payment, and is highly protected by a large number of miners, which makes it much harder to hack or double spend. I think people will continue to invest in legitimate technology projects and blockchain projects that have real utility. Just as people continue to invest in the stock market and expect good returns, I think investors will continue to buy into cryptocurrencies.

If it satisfies all those people, then yeah, they'll definitely want it in the future. You said it correctly, there's belief. Belief that people will still evaluate it. It's a free market, so there's uncertainty.

You don't mention the downsides, though. The banking system isn't a green meadow. I'll be using a currency that is constantly devaluated by the banks. As said by franky, your money will sooner or later lose value due to inflation, whether you're guaranteed in the capitals or not. The less the required reserve, the more my money can lose value through loans in the long term.

Well, I don't like that. I want a hedge to inflation.

I think an adage is needed;
Despite our disagreements, I proved you wrong. It's very meaningful for some people. You don't agree, because you want us to do it with your way.

Maybe some people don't want to be part of a fraudulent, built-to-corrupt system where their money is inflated as there's demand for new loans. Maybe some people just want to use something that leaves room for questioning; that its usage is not forced to satisfy ones' interests; that provides free speech and freedom of choice.

There's a difference between trusting a system and having faith to a system: No one forces you the latter. You ought to respect those people who have different political beliefs than you. No?

nope. fiat contracts are not about the debt. no one owes you anything. you holding a bank note is not some security to some laon somewhere that someone owes you.
take a bank note to a bank. they wont give you bread loaf value for the bank note. all they do is give you a crisp new copy of the same note., to replace the crumpled, dirty copy.

if you hand in a bank note as a desposit. your bank note then forms a contract where the bank can use your collateral to fractional reserve future debt where the bank profits on the returns. and if your lucky you might get 0.01% for letting them use your bank note you no longer hold(while its in their custody).

check out the zimbabwe dollar. no one had security, the government were not liable to honour value.
once tax and min wage laws were no longer measured in Z$ people stopped using it

the only thing that makes fiat useful (where by it has no other benefits) is because of tax/minimum wage laws that force it into utility.
if people had the choice they would not want to use fiat because the moment they receive it, they have lost value.
either via tax or inflation.

people would prefer to use something deflationary, where just holding it independently increases the value over time.
if it was not for tax/min wage laws, no one would use fiat (its why zimbabwe dollar is now dead, its why people dont use euro's in america)

american dollar is only viable in america because of tax/min wage laws forcing utility. it has nothing to do with any dreamed up liable value or security promise. because there is no liability/security promise.

if something happened to the dollar. what do you think you would get.. dont say promises security liability. actually explain what you would get in return. the us government removed the gold standard 50 years ago.. you are not promised gold anymore
a UK bank notes says now it "promises to pay the bearer the sum of 5 pounds" .. not 5lb of silver... just £5:£5 meaning they only now promise to swap a crumpled piece of paper for a crisp piece of paper..

if something happened to the dollar. what do you think you would get?
the only answers would be:
a crisp new bank note swap for crumpled note. meaning no difference.
a bag of heavy copper coins that might (scrap rate) get you more value, but no one likes to handle them so the effort outweight the value, so they would probably see its coins and swap at face value 1:1 not scrap value.

a bank note is not worth the value its printed on.
yet bitcoin has an underlying value of ~$35k(eastern europe/west asia) $85k(expensive countries)

the price is currently near good value.
yes when bitcoin was ~$70k it was 2-3x value and seen as a premium. but its much better than the dollars 2-26x devalue

1. holding fiat money promises you nothing. a bank note does not earn you interest. infact each year you lose value holding fiat.
    the longer you hold onto a bank note, the less you can buy with it
    also, if you deposit banknotes into a bank. you are giving in your bank note in exchange to allow them to fractional reserve it to create new loans where they might pay you 0.01% of their profits if you leave it with them for a year, but even this is far below inflation, so your still losing

2. bitcoin in 2009 had like a penny of true cost of creation value. where people liked it because it had features that were different to bank notes. it had a purpose/function/benefit/utility(things you ignore). this incentivised more people to want it.(2010+) and so the competition to create it(mining) increased the cost of creating it. which then translated to the market value of acquiring without mining it to increase.

if bitcoin changed where it became useless as a currency. offering nothing better than other currencies where majority of people stopped using it. thus impacting the mining cost, where( instead of $35k-$85k to mine(now)) it became like $2 to mine, then the market rate would come down to a value window of $2-$5.. instead of the current cost,utility cost value window of $35k-$85k

once you understand the cost/value window. your question then becomes why would anyone pay $70k if it can be acquired by some means for atleast $35k(price within a value window)

There's a hereby misuse of the word “subjective”. I don't accept this as subjective. And as a wise man once said:

Excuse me for this and thank you for correcting me. Yes, not all forms of money are debt. Money is debt only within the modern financial system. Say for instance, your bank account's balance. That's debt, from the bank's side, to you. You can transfer this debt to others and therefore, make it money without withdrawing it.

Yes, everything you described about the debt system is correct. But, debt doesn't change the situation. When I accept to get paid by your debt, I'm supposed to receive my dollars at some point in the future or transfer this debt to someone who will receive those dollars in the future. If you promised to return me monopoly banknotes, that'd also be debt, but I'd refuse, 'cause people don't accept those. I accept to provide you services and sell you products in exchange for pieces of paper or debt of those pieces, because there's a government who's forced their usage.

Anyway, we're not going to ever agree on the debt thing. So here's my question, is it reasonable for some people to not want to deal with debt? What's the problem if two individuals want to accomplish a purchase by the way I described?

Don't open up new topics in the same thread. Let's cover one at a time.

I have no idea. If I had to guess, I'd say: one new experience and a valuable (even if pricey) life lesson.

Although I'm not sure if the "Ponzi scheme" is the correct description. According to wikipedia, the Ponzi scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from legitimate business activity (e.g., product sales or successful investments), and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds. Those key characteristics do not seem to be present in cryptocurrencies as far as I know.

As I said before, you are right, and you shouldn't. And no one should try to convince you otherwise.
Because no one in the world can guarantee you'll be able to go the opposite direction in the future, so all that's left is just a number in a database which has no intrinsic value.

I've never spoken for my personal opinions towards Bitcoin in this thread. Actually, I challenge you to quote me wherever (you think) I did. Those things I've told you are facts.

Money is debt. You measure this debt in money. Fiat currencies are money, because they're considered by people as currencies. Two individuals could setup their own ledger which would contain their own transactions, in simple “numbers” as you say.

For instance, me and DooMAD. We could create a ledger that starts with 10,000 monetary units and deal by using this as a medium of exchange. Say DooMAD gave me a bar of chocolate, I signed in the ledger that I now own 10 less and he owns 10 more. If more people liked this ledger, it could be considered money. Yes, they're just numbers, but it's a lot easier to transfer the equivalent of ten Teslas by writing down some additional lines, if we're both agreeing on a value, than by transferring the actual vehicles. Therefore, it satisfies for this purpose.

But, that's what I've been telling him for the past page. The problem is that he can't understand that it's a wrong conclusion to consider something meaningless just because it's a number in some database... It satisfies one job. Therefore it has at least one purpose of existence.

To be perfectly honest, anyone who is using Bitcoin purely as a speculative asset and leaves their funds on a custodial exchange doesn't really own anything, in practice.  Is that the point you're not-so-subtly trying to get at?

On the other hand, those who use Bitcoin in the way it was intended to be used will have ownership of space in the ledger.  This in turn grants them financial freedom and independence, which some might argue you can't put a price on.  But you clearly don't care about that, so again, Bitcoin probably isn't the right investment for you.

If you value aesthetics above freedom, I'm sure some morally bankrupt opportunist will be more than happy to sell you some worthless NFTs.  That market exists solely to cater to those "on your level".    

Of course, people are the problem. You're right and everyone else is wrong. You can't understand that something which is not tangible can be utilized. The answer you're looking is on the main page of Bitcoin's wiki:


If you haven't got it, yet, you're problematic.

In where Nocoiners just see nothing but a number, Bitcoiners can see the entire future.  

but YOU are the one that is not listening to the sales men when they explain its features that are different to other things.
you just say "its a product on a bench" repeatedly, not wanting to accept its utility and function and benefits beyond "a product"

if i showed you a fiat analog phone, a crypto smartphone you wont want to hear about the different things they can do.
you dont even want to admit they are phones. you just say "its a product"

I'm very able of replying to your questions. You're just perpetually denying them, because they're not favoring you. You've spared so much time to create videos explaining why Bitcoin is meaningless and therefore, you want to be biased towards it.

We're not a store here, sir. We're making dialogue. We're not obligated to assist you.

Yes, that's my answer. That's the main reason people use Bitcoin. The fact that you don't like this answer doesn't make it not true. Allow me to tell you that not every person thinks exactly as you do.