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41  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: F2Pool: "Segwit will be a disaster." on: April 13, 2017, 12:16:10 PM
Speaking the truth means he'll get DDoSed soon.
Just like BU nodes.
42  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Who Wants Jihan Wu's Head on a Platter? on: April 13, 2017, 10:11:41 AM
Here we go again, one dumb shill shows up claiming something is confirmed, without proof.
5 other shills collaborate, all without proof.
A few smart guy replied with logic, asking for proof.
Shills pretend they couldn't see them, went for personal attacks instead.

How do you people even live with yourself?
How do you idiots walk around shamelessly opening your mouth like you don't even care how stupid you look?
How do you overcome that natural instinct to avoid looking like a complete retard?
How do you even train for that? Were you born with these skills or were you just dropped on the head or what?

And if proof isn't important and you're just going for the bullshit factor, why don't you show more ambition and start with something like: 'It looks like it is now confirmed that the earth is flat, and it's the miners fault','oh yeah I agree','oh yeah me too'.

Works exactly the same, but more bang for the buck.
43  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell on: April 12, 2017, 04:56:04 PM
isnt this the guy that told lies about Bitmain etc.  what was the story?

Samson Mow‏: Exciting to hear @bcoinio w/ $300k Bitmain investment
Jihan Wu‏: Samson is a liar. Bitmain paid no money into Bcoin.io yet.

Samson's known on twitter as a troll and Blockstream shill.
Everywhere this guy goes you can expect trolling, lying and backstabbing.
Exactly the kind of guy Blockstream would like to hire.

Still, 'Chief Strategy Officer' is just hilarious, as if Blockstream needs even more strategy on lying and trolling.

Adam Back, Greg Maxwell, Luke Jr, Samson Mao.
This is like the Anti-Satoshi Foundation.
The Blockstream sewage system is now complete.

He used to work for BTCC, some say he was fired, some say he was politely asked to leave.
Blockstream probably hired him to help build their own mining operations.

Behind all the theatrics, the real battle is still in the hash rate.
44  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell on: April 12, 2017, 03:22:54 PM
You can't make this stuff up:

https://twitter.com/Blockstream/status/852162114701504512
7:10 AM - 12 Apr 2017
@Blockstream: Welcome Samson Mow, @Excellion, as Chief Strategy Officer of Blockstream!
45  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell on: April 12, 2017, 04:35:24 AM
That would be subjective.
If one decide the objective of POW is to hash fully and whoever gets it first wins then fair do - subjective.
If one decide the objective of POW is to hash fully and a miner isn't hashing fully, (A programming short cut of using 3 sha256 operations instead of 4 when mining a block hash.) then one may decide that the miner is cheating based on a principle and not regard it as optimisation - subjective.

Objective is better than subjective. You can see way the debates goes on and on. There are two subjectives to one objective. Thus two opinions. Of course people may decide there are more opinions but i am just mentioning 2. Who is right and who is wrong - neither.

The most objective thing would be to just tell Core to patch the damn code.

I see you've caught that little subliminal message I placed near the end.

I asked jonald earlier, instead of hubs, why can't we do bi-directional channel using existing full nodes (non miner)?

You can almost hear Adam Back gasping: You mean cut out the middle man? How the hell is Blockstream supposed to get paid?
46  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell on: April 12, 2017, 04:17:39 AM

Is it not possible to do LN using full nodes (non-miners) that exist now, rather than "hubs?"

It may be entirely possible.  I'm sure its possible with certain parameters, but no one has given a clear picture.

Suppose Alice wants to send Carol 5 bitcoins, through Bob.  Alice has a channel with Bob, and Bob has a channel with Carol.

Alice->Bob->Carol.

The channels must be 5 bitcoins "wide" first of all.  And both channels must pay fees for both opening and closing.
Alice and Carol can send money back and forth a gazillion times if both channels stay open and the amounts
stay within the channel parameters.

But if Carol needs her 5 bitcoins for whatever, and she closes the channel, then she has to open the channel with Bob
again before the transacting can go on, which she can perhaps no longer do because she is out of bitcoins.
  Also, if Alice wants to send 10 bitcoins instead of 5, but Bob and Carol's channel
only supports 5 bitcoins, I don't think that is possible in a safe way.

So already there's complexity and we're talking about 3 people.  You can begin to imagine that as the network of people
grows, you start to need more big channels that stay open.

So everyone ends up with a postal system, you have mail boxes, mail hubs, post offices, mail routes, prepaid envelopes, stamps, even spam.

Except it's much more complex, you have to buy prepaid envelopes for different destinations, sometimes you can reuse them, but sometimes you can't and what's left is wasted, unless you do a refund at certain time.

Usually when you build a peer to peer delivery system, you end up with something like TCP/IP, or bittorrent.

LN at the current stage is like the worst of both worlds. How the hell is it even suppose to work in a small country?

The only sensible thing to do is to make everything in between simple and free, then charge network usage bandwidth from end points like ISPs, that's the only way it'll be simple enough to work properly. If you keep doing accounting between nodes, the accounting database will end up being millions times bigger than the blockchain itself.

And I think that's why Blockstream is holding the lock on 1MB, they're trying to build networks and ISPs on top of Bitcoin's blockchain.
47  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin’s Segregated Witness: More Than Just Malleability Fixes and Scaling on: April 12, 2017, 12:35:02 AM
As it stands, I think most people just check the OP and link if there is one, and don't wade into all the comments most of the time. But if they do, I would be stunned if the average reader just wandering into this debate found themselves persuaded by the over-the-top, often rude and vulgar (not all, but a few), and kooky conspiracy-minded posting of the anti-SW crowd.

The average person, for example, is going to note that most Bitcoin organizations and developers favor Segwit. If it's such a terrible idea as the more obnoxious ranters say yelling specious claims about technical risks and so forth, then why are so many people supporting it? Why do we keep hearing about BU's code failing but not SW crashing and burning? There is a huge discordance between anti-SW rhetoric and reality, and they aren't making themselves persuasive with their wild rhetoric. (Insofar as a couple of them are more restrained and trying to be more measured in their responses, I thank them for that. But they are not representative.)

My ass is jealous of the amount of shit that just came out of your mouth.
48  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell on: April 11, 2017, 08:07:36 PM
Ethically speaking, Blockstream/Core are just about the lowest you can go.  Adam Back and Greg Maxwell are poison and have to be eliminated despite their fancy PhD.  We can't have a centralized, for profit head of Bitcoin.  That is all Blockstream and AXA are trying to bring forth.  Time to get a few guys with technical competence and no paycheck from Adam Back to retake over Core.

I haven't seen such sustained blatant evilness in open source for years.

All the Blockstream tactics are straight out of the banking cartel's playbook.

49  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin’s Segregated Witness: More Than Just Malleability Fixes and Scaling on: April 11, 2017, 07:31:41 PM
OP, you made a grave mistake by not self-moderating this thread. Anything that is even remotely positive about Segwit or Bitcoin Core, even when we are talking about *facts*, will get smashed by the group of hired goons. You can find them in all related threads, see: franky, jonald, Alex, kiklo. There are some that occasionally come and go, see: zimmah.

This thread is already flooded with such responses, even though the article mentions *some factual improvements*.

Lauda, you should know one of the reasons I started posting here, other than Greg's idiotic reply to DGulari, was that I noticed you were trolling nonstop at people who were clearly the voice of reason here.

Some select quotes:

to:Cashew
Simply put, you are a complete baboon with the education level of a western primary school kid.

to:jonald_fyookball
Stop spamming the board with your bullshit.

to:franky1
As soon as you stop accepting payment for your posts.

So I took out my titanium fact hammer and started smashing every god damn shill I saw in the mouth for 2 weeks. I think things got a little better after that.

I see your mouth has begun to heal so it is itchy again.
50  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin’s Segregated Witness: More Than Just Malleability Fixes and Scaling on: April 11, 2017, 03:06:48 PM
1. If Vertcoin, Litecoin and other alts implement Segwit without issue, will you admit you are wrong and drop your opposition to SW on Bitcoin?

That's the probem with shills, they don't even understand the code and where the actual problem is, but they have to keep opening their mouths.

Look at the code, don't look at other people. If the code is flawed, it's flawed anywhere it's used. If you don't understand the code, then you don't understand the problem, then don't argue about it.

2. I suppose someone can be hostile to the general bitcoin development community ("core") without being a support of BU. But it's a natural mistake to make in the present environment. Ironically I define myself as "anti-BU" and not "pro-core" in much the same way you define yourself as "anti-core" but not "pro-BU". So your point is well taken, but I hope you take it to heart as well  because it works both ways.

A whole paragraph of nothing. It's your ignorance towards actual problems that got you the shill title, not your emotion, fashion choices, or any other personal preferences, it's your attitude towards facts and simple logic, the way you kept dancing around them while waving your hands kicking bullshit into the air hoping everyone will get distracted.

3. The fact that Blockstream is one company that has some devs involved with Bitcoin is not proof that everything is controlled by them. Applying that sort of reasoning leads to all sorts of wild conclusions (because X has influence on Y, X must control Y?) that are going to be wrong 99% of the time.
Even if Blockstream has the most influence... well, of all the organizations involved with the dev community, one would be at the top of the list of influence. Why should I view that one as being more sinister than all the rest? Knock it out of the picture and you could come up with conspiracy theories for the next one, and the next one. Most everything I read from the core-haters just puts an extremely negative spin on anything core does without any sense of balance, often with a fair amount of ranting and raving. It's a real turn-off and does nothing to persuade people.

Shills always like to play dumb, I don't get it, they actually think they can get away with it.

I am just going to quote franky here:

?? blockstream devs have no control ??

https://github.com/bitcoin/bips
Quote
People wishing to submit BIPs, first should propose their idea or document to the mailing list. After discussion they should email Luke Dashjr <luke_bipeditor@dashjr.org>. After copy-editing and acceptance, it will be published here.
luke JR.. oh look blockstream (p.s just a couple months ago it was gmax)

hmm who moderates the mailing list
https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/bitcoin-dev-moderation
Quote
To post a message to all the list members, send email to bitcoin-dev-moderation@lists.ozlabs.org.
Bitcoin-dev-moderation list run by rusty at rustcorp.com.au
 
ozlabs... i wonder... oh look rusty russel

so thats LJR and RR of blockstream employment.
so whats next. hmm
oh the technical discussion category on this forum
oh look gmaxwell

so thats LJR,  RR and GM of blockstream employment.

And this, Blockstream/Core closed pull requests on blocksize increase within minutes:
0.14 with 2Mb block size #10014
Update consensus.h #10092
Do you guys need assistance updating that block size? #10028

One of them was closed by Blockstream co-founder Pieter Wuille (sipa).
One of them was set to 'locked and limited conversation to collaborators'
One of them was closed in 5-7 minutes, like they had bots watching or something.

Meanwhile the stupidest useless pull requests stay open for months.

4. If you think SW so controversial, why is there so little opposition to it at https://coin.dance/poli ?

<innocent retard mode>If it's not controversial, why does it have less support than BU?</innocent retard mode>

This is exactly the kind of bullshit I am just tired of.
Do your research, use common sense, don't talk bullshit, don't play dumb, don't ask stupid questions.
If you have to shill, then shill, but don't act like a smart ass then play dumb.

5. Franky and Jonathan have been posting non-stop on virtually every thread related to this debate. I don't have an exact count but anyone paying attention can see that a handful of BU or anti-core supporters have been trying to dominate the discussion through sheer volume and repetition (such as your example in this thread!). You can't take our posting count over several years as a guide, that's silly. It's the posts on this topic I'm referring to. Again, anyone reading here can see what's going on, so arguing against me on this is just going to damage your credibility with readers in general.

If you know post count doesn't mean anything then why did you even bring it up?

FFS It's like amateur hour here.

Anyone reading here can see a Blockstream shill trying to play bullshit gymnastics.

When shills run out of actual answers, they often pretend they can speak for everyone.
'Oh look I can't even defend my own bullshit but I'll just pretend everyone already agrees with me.'
Really it's just pathetic.
51  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin’s Segregated Witness: More Than Just Malleability Fixes and Scaling on: April 11, 2017, 02:33:36 PM
Wrong, segwit is opt-in, so you voluntarily use it or not. BUcoin hard fork is the one that would become impossible to uninstall. BUcoin is an instakill for bitcoin, that's why it has 0 real support and segwit gets majority support in all fields except hashrate (which is controlled by a small amount of people with incentives to block bitcoin progress)

Another total noob who doesn't even understand Bitcoin, hash rate is the only thing that can't be easily faked, it's the only thing that can reliably solve the Byzantine Generals' Problem.

Your so called 'real support' can be easily bought. Any half ass Eastern European botnet operator can launch a bunch of nodes for UASF. Hell even windows script kiddies can just card a bunch of Amazon cloud and bam, another 1000 of your so call 'real support'.

Can't do that with hash rate. Even if you bribe all the universities and use all their super computers to mine Bitcoin, it'll only cause a blip in the hash rate.

Miners are what made Bitcoin a success.

Blockstream went soft fork with SegWit because they thought they could fuck over both miners and nodes at the same time, that failed, that's why they're now attacking miners and go for UASF.

They're running around like a bunch of amateurs.
52  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin’s Segregated Witness: More Than Just Malleability Fixes and Scaling on: April 11, 2017, 01:37:00 PM
I've posted maybe 1/10 the messages here that BU folks like franky1 or jonathan f have posted in the same timeframe. If that makes me a shill for core (I'm not, just an ordinary bitcoiner with absolutely 0 ties to Blockstream or any dev), what does that make you guys? You seem to have nothing better to do than hang around this board and reddit all day posting up a storm.

Folks are encouraged to read both sides of this debate (Proverbs 18:17) and make up their own mind, because it is important for the future of Bitcoin.

I guess pretty much everyone outside your group is a shill for core - that is, for bitcoin - outside your mining cartel:
https://coin.dance/poli

It's not your post count that makes you a shill, it's your ignorance, here is just one example:

Re: Do you support Segwit?
Yes, of course. I don't see any downside to it, and the upsides are major ones.

I just posted a bunch of reasons why SegWit is an obvious poison pill.
Yet you ignore it and go straight for framing me as 'BU folks'.
Show me one post where I sell BU, seriously, just try and find one, just one.
 
There is no debate, the evidence is clear,  Blockstream/Core are simply crooks who've taken the code hostage since 2015.
Instead of just increase the blocksize to 2M/4M and let things progress naturally, let SegWit face natural competition, Blockstream/Core used dirty tactics to force feed it to everyone.

Github commits, BIPs and mailing lists are now all under Blockstream control.

Complex trojan horses like SegWit gets merged without a hiccup,while  simple 2M increase pull request got instantly closed by Blockstream co-founder, then they locked it so the submitter couldn't even reply. Then they turn around and bullshit about 'community consensus'.

And you have similar posts-per-day as franky/jonald, how do you even come up with bullshit like 'I've posted maybe 1/10 the messages here that BU folks like franky1'.

Just try me, just quote me and reply with bullshit again, and I'll compile a long list of dirty shit Blockstream/Core have done, and every time you shill for SegWit I'll start your so called debate with it. Let's see how well you do in that debate.

Just do your job, but don't act like a smart ass when you're selling bullshit.
53  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin’s Segregated Witness: More Than Just Malleability Fixes and Scaling on: April 11, 2017, 04:08:21 AM
I know you know too, actually I think it was you who posted that link first.

I am replying because OP is a well known Blockstream/Core shill.

He's trying to dupe newbies again so I have to call out on Blockstream/Core's bullshit.
54  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin’s Segregated Witness: More Than Just Malleability Fixes and Scaling on: April 11, 2017, 03:56:31 AM
look, just out of curiosity:

Since activating a UASF can very likely cause a network split,
do you find it at all hypocritical that the same people who are calling for UASF
were and are against "contentious hard forks"?

UASF is just Blockstream getting desperate and try to shove SegWit down everyone's throat using bot nets.

The only thing that is really difficult to fake is hash power. That's why Blockstream/Core are now attacking miners.


55  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin’s Segregated Witness: More Than Just Malleability Fixes and Scaling on: April 11, 2017, 03:53:20 AM
LOL, SegWit is just like IE for Bitcoin. Overly complex, buggy, insecure, impossible to remove once installed.
 
Anyone who've looked into SegWit knows it's just a poison pill designed to give BlockStream eternal control over Bitcoin.

I have posted about it before but this time I'll just quote kiklo's post:

Segregated Witness: A Fork Too Far by Jaqen Hash’ghar
https://medium.com/the-publius-letters/segregated-witness-a-fork-too-far-87d6e57a4179


Quote
3.1 SW creates a financial incentive for bloating witness data

SW allows for a theoretical maximum block size limit of ~4 MB. However, this is only true if the entire block was occupied with transactions of a very small ‘base size’ (e.g. P2WPKH with 1 input, 1 output). In practice, based on the average transaction size today and the types of transactions made, the block size limit is expected to have a maximum limit of ~1.7 MB post-SW (Figure 10; assuming all transactions are using SW unspent outputs?—?a big assumption).

However, the 4 MB theoretical limit creates a key problem. Miners and full node operators need to ensure that their systems can handle the 4 MB limit, even though at best they will only be able to support ~40% of that transaction capacity. Why? Because there exists a financial incentive for malicious actors to design transactions with a small base size but large and complex witness data. This is exacerbated by the fact that witness scripts (i.e. P2SH-P2WSH or P2SH-P2WSH) will have higher script size limits that normal P2SH redeem scripts (i.e., from 520 bytes to 3,600 bytes [policy] or 10,000 bytes [consensus]). These potential problems only worsen as the block size limit is raised in the future, for example a 2 MB maximum base size creates an 8 MB adversarial case. This problem hinders scalability and makes future capacity increases more difficult.

3.2 SW fails to sufficiently address the problems it intends to solve

If SW is activated by soft fork, Bitcoin will effectively have two classes of UTXOs (non-SW vs SW UTXOs), each with different security and economic properties. Linear signature hashing and malleability fixes will only be available to the SW UTXO. Most seriously, there are no enforceable constraints to the growth of the non-SW UTXO. This means that the network (even upgraded nodes) are still vulnerable to transaction malleability and quadratic signature hashing from non-SW outputs that existed before or created after the soft fork.

The lack of enforceability that comes with a soft fork leaves Bitcoin users and developers vulnerable to precisely the type of attacks SW is designed to prevent. While spending non-SW outputs will be comparatively more expensive than SW outputs, this remains a relatively weak disincentive for a motivated attacker.

It is also unclear what proportion of the total number of the legacy UTXO will migrate to SW outputs. Long-term holders of Bitcoin, such as Satoshi Nakamoto (presumed to be in possession of ~1 million Bitcoin), may keep their coins in non-SW outputs (although it would be a significant vote of confidence in SW by Nakamoto if they were to migrate!). This makes future soft or hard forks to Bitcoin more difficult as multiple classes of UTXOs must now be supported to prevent coins from being burned or stolen.

One key concern is that the coexistence of two UTXO types may tempt developers and miners in the future to destroy the non-SW UTXO. Some may view this as an unfounded concern, but the only reason that this is worth mentioning in this article are the comments made by influential individuals associated with Bitcoin Core: Greg Maxwell has postulated that “abandoned UTXO should be forgotten and become unspendable,” and Theymos has claimed “the very-rough consensus is that old coins should be destroyed before they are stolen to prevent disastrous monetary inflation.”

As the security properties of SW outputs are marginally better than non-SW outputs, it may serve as a sufficient rationalization for this type of punitive action.

The existence of two UTXO types with different security and economic properties also deteriorates Bitcoin’s fungibility. Miners and fully validating nodes may decide not to relay, or include in blocks, transactions that spend to one type or the other. While on one hand this is a positive step towards enforceability (i.e. soft enforceability), it is detrimental to unsophisticated Bitcoin users who have funds in old or non-upgraded wallets. Furthermore, it is completely reasonable for projects such as the lightning network to reject forming bidirectional payment channels (i.e. a multisignature P2SH address) using non-SW P2SH outputs due to the possibility of malleability. Fundamentally this means that the face-value of Bitcoin will not be economically treated the same way depending on the type of output it comes from.

It is widely understood in software development that measures which rely on the assumption of users changing their behavior to adopt better security practices are fundamentally doomed to fail; more so when the unpatched vulnerabilities are permitted to persist and grow. An example familiar to most readers would be the introduction and subsequent snail’s pace uptake of HTTPS.

3.3 SW places complex requirements on developers to comply while failing to guarantee any benefits

SW as a soft fork brings with it a mountain of irreversible technical debt, with multiple opportunities for developers to permanently cause the loss of user funds. For example, the creation of P2SH-P2WPKH or P2SH-P2WSH addresses requires the strict use of compressed pubkeys, otherwise funds can be irrevocably lost. Similarly, the use of OP_IF, OP_NOTIF, OP_CHECKSIG, and OP_CHECKMULTISIG must be carefully handled for SW transactions in order to prevent the loss of funds. It is all but certain that some future developers will cause user loss of funds due to an incomplete understanding of the intricacies of SW transaction formats.

In terms of priorities, SW is not a solution to any of the major support ticket issues that are received daily by Bitcoin businesses such as BitPay, Coinbase, Blockchain.info, etc. The activation of SW will not increase the transaction capacity of Bitcoin overnight, but only incrementally as a greater percentage of transactions spend to SW outputs. Moreover, the growing demand for on-chain transactions may very well exceed the one-off capacity increase as demonstrated by the increasing frequency of transaction backlogs.

In contrast to a basic block size increase (BBSI) from a coordinated hard fork, many wallets and SPV clients will immediately benefit from new capacity increases without the need to rewrite their own software as they must do with SW.. With a BBSI, unlike SW, there are no transaction format or signature changes required on the part of Bitcoin-using applications.

Based on previous experience with soft forks in Bitcoin, upgrades tend to roll-out within the ecosystem over some time. At the time of this writing, only 28 out of the 78 business and projects (36%) who have publicly committed to the upgrade are SW-compatible. Any capacity increase that Bitcoin businesses and users of the network desire to ease on-chain fee pressure will unlikely be felt for some time, assuming that transaction volume remains unchanged and does not continue growing. The unpredictability of this capacity increase and the growth of the non-SW UTXO are particularly troubling for Bitcoin businesses from the perspectives of user-growth and security, respectively. Conversely, a BBSI delivers an immediate and predictable capacity increase.

The voluntary nature of SW upgrades is subject to the first-mover game theory problem. With a risky upgrade that moves transaction signatures to a new witness field that is hidden to some nodes, the incentive for the rational actor is to let others take that risk first, while the rational actor sits back, waits, and watches to see if people lose funds or have problems. Moreover, the voluntary SW upgrade also suffers from the free-rider game theory problem. If others upgrade and move their data to the witness field, one can benefit even without upgrading or using SW transactions themselves. These factors further contribute to the unpredictable changes to Bitcoin’s transaction capacity and fees if SW is adopted via a soft fork.

3.4 Economic distortions and price fixing


Segregated Witness as a soft fork alters the economic incentives that regulate access to Bitcoin’s one fundamental good: block-size space. Firstly, it subsidises signature data in large/complex P2WSH transactions (i.e., at ¼ of the cost of transaction/UTXO data). However, the signatures are more expensive to validate than the UTXO, which makes this unjustifiable in terms of computational cost. The discount itself appears to have been determined arbitrarily and not for any scientific or data-backed reasoning.

Secondly, the centralized and top-down planning of one of Bitcoin’s primary economic resources, block space, further disintermediates various market forces from operating without friction. SW as a soft fork is designed to preserve the 1 MB capacity limit for on-chain transactions, which will purposely drive on-chain fees up for all users of Bitcoin. Rising transaction fees, euphemistically called a ‘fee market’, is anything but a market when one side?—?i.e. supply?—?is fixed by central economic planners (the developers) who do not pay the costs for Bitcoin’s capacity (the miners). Economic history has long taught us the results of non-market intervention in the supply of goods and services: the costs are externalised to consumers. The adoption of SW as a soft fork creates a bad precedent for further protocol changes that affirm this type of economic planning.

3.5 Soft fork risks

In this section we levy criticisms of soft forks more broadly when they affect the protocol and economic properties of Bitcoin to the extent that SW does. In this case, a soft fork reduces the security of full nodes without the consent of the node operator. The SW soft fork forces node operators either to upgrade, or to unconditionally accept the loss of security by being downgraded to a SPV node.

Non-upgraded nodes further weaken the general security of Bitcoin as a whole through the reduction of the number of fully validating nodes on the network. This is because non-upgraded nodes will only perform the initial check to see if the redeem script hash matches the pubkey script hash of the unspent output. This redeem script may contain an invalid witness program, for P2WSH transactions, that the non-upgraded node doesn’t know how to verify. This node will then blindly relay the invalid transaction across the network.

SW as a soft fork is the opposite of anti-fragile. Even if the community wants the change (i.e., an increase in transaction capacity), soft-forking to achieve these changes means that the miners become the key target of lobbying (and they already are). Soft forks are risky in this context because it becomes relatively easy to change things, which may be desirable if the feature is both minor and widely beneficial. However, it is bad in this case because the users of Bitcoin (i.e. everyone else but the miners) are not given the opportunity to consent or opt-out, despite being affected the most by such a sweeping change. This can be likened to a popular head of state who bends the rules of jurisprudence to bypass slow legal processes to “get things done.” The dangerous precedent of taking legal shortcuts is not of concern the masses until a new, less popular leader takes hold of the reigns, and by then it is too late to reverse. In contrast, activating SW via a hard fork ensures that the entire community, not just the miners, decide on changes made to the protocol. Users who unequivocally disagree with a change being made are given the clear option not to adopt the change?—?not so with a soft fork.

3.6 Once activated, SW cannot be undone and must remain in Bitcoin codebase forever.

If any critical bugs resulting from SW are discovered down the road, bugs serious enough to contemplate rolling it back, then anyone will be able to spend native SW outputs, leading to a catastrophic loss of funds.


4. Fork in the road


Segregated Witness attempts to fix transaction malleability and lay the foundation for scaling Bitcoin through “secondary layers,” which is why SW supporters have dubbed it a ‘scaling solution.’ This immediately highlights that there are two conflicting visions of Bitcoin that need to be unpacked.

Supporters of Bitcoin Core’s scaling roadmap believe that on-chain transaction capacity should be limited in order to encourage higher transaction fees and decrease the cost of running a fully-validating node. Those who prefer prioritizing on-chain scaling believe that on-chain capacity should be increased in order to allow for more user growth, and that the domain of running fully-validating nodes will naturally transition to those with the greatest financial incentive to do so: miners, businesses, and institutions. Contrary to the claims of popular talking points, this does not compromise the decentralized and trustless nature of the Bitcoin system, and this transition was anticipated by Satoshi Nakamoto.
Figure 11: Satoshi on the equilibrium of nodes, and the consumer transition to SPV

There is a very clear conflict of tradeoffs. By keeping the block-size small, only wealthy individuals and institutions will be able to afford on-chain transaction fees, while any user will be able to afford running a full node. By increasing the block-size, any user can afford a transaction, but only wealthy individuals or institutions can afford to run a fully validating node, as Satoshi predicted (Figure 12).
Figure 12: Satoshi on the future network topology of Bitcoin

There are, as of yet, unknown factors within each of these respective visions:

    The lightning network, and/or other second-layer payment layers, may reduce on-chain transaction volume and consequently, fees
    The cost of running of a full node may significantly decrease with hardware, software, and bandwidth improvements

In other words, LN may reduce on-chain transaction volume to a fraction of what it is now, or the cost of running a full node with 10 GB blocks in 20 years time may be laughably trivial. Perhaps both will be true.


4.1 Fee Market vs Capacity Market

Ostensibly, those in favor of constraining the block-size at 1 MB or thereabouts are concerned with the degradation of Bitcoin’s decentralized topology. However, this is somewhat disingenuous as no one?—?to our knowledge?—?has been able to calculate a target for the minimum number of nodes required to be sufficiently ‘decentralised’. This qualitative parameter can be used as a strawman argument for rejecting any increase to the block-size, or to reject anything at all, because it is impossible to argue against. Of course, it is simultaneously impossible to argue for it.

In the absence of any empirical measures by which decentralization is defined, we must reject this argument as a reason to constrain the block-size. What appears to be the more likely justification for constraining the block-size is an attempt to maximise transaction fees collected by the miners by artificially suppressing the supply of the block-space resource.

This is at odds with a more reasonable approach of allowing the supply of on-chain transactions to be regulated by miners, a capacity market, to optimize the total transaction fees harvested in each block as a function of supply and demand. This means that marginal on-chain transaction fees can effectively decrease as volume grows over time. The price of on-chain transactions with time and competition will approach the marginal cost of supply at any given demand level.

Conclusion

Segregated Witness is the most radical and irresponsible protocol upgrade Bitcoin has faced in its eight year history. The push for the SW soft fork puts Bitcoin miners in a difficult and unfair position to the extent that they are pressured into enforcing a complicated and contentious change to the Bitcoin protocol, without community consensus or an honest discussion weighing the benefits against the costs. The scale of the code changes are far from trivial?—?nearly every part of the codebase is affected by SW.

While increasing the transaction capacity of Bitcoin has already been significantly delayed, SW represents an unprofessional and ineffective solution to both transaction malleability and scaling. As a soft fork, SW introduces more technical debt to the protocol and fundamentally fails to achieve its design purpose. As a hard fork, combined with real on-chain scaling, SW can effectively mitigate transaction malleability and quadratic signature hashing. Each of these issues are too important for the future of Bitcoin to gamble on SW as a soft fork and the permanent baggage that comes with it.

As much as the authors of this article desire transaction capacity increases, it is far better to work towards a clean technical solution to malleability and scaling than to further encumber the Bitcoin protocol with permanent technical debt.


 Cool
56  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell on: April 11, 2017, 03:40:44 AM
https://twitter.com/el33th4xor/status/851412199910322176
Emin Gün Sirer: Bitcoin's big mistake was centralizing the client and the dev team. Getting those decentralized will be as painful as it is essential.

There are large amount of fake supporters for BlockStream/Core/SegWit:
https://twitter.com/nikzh/status/851398297491296256
Nikita Zhavoronkov: Much Sybil. Such attack!



BlockStream is probably building their own botnet for UASF.


57  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin unlimited on: April 11, 2017, 03:30:54 AM
BU has been dwindling since the ASICBoost scandal broke. It is now under 30% at https://coin.dance/blocks.

The Politics link at coin.dance shows only 4% of organizations actually oppose Segwit. Not surprisingly it looks like mostly miners in the BU cartel.

Segwit will probably never reach the 95% threshold, but the UASF certainly looks to be gaining steam. My guess is that is how it will end up being implemented.

http://www.nodecounter.com/
Bitcoin Unlimited blocks: 348  ( 34.8% )
SegWit blocks: 288  ( 28.8% )

SegWit got even less than before.

Base on your logic, people must have realized any nameless mining farm could have been using ASICBoost for months/years, and pinning it on AntPool with no evidence is just idiotic. And SegWit is still a poisonous piece of crap.
58  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: it is Core, not Bitman blocking segwit on: April 10, 2017, 04:48:22 AM
I really don't understand why they went.

Yes you do, don't play dumb now.

Yes, SegWit did get merged because the Core Devs agreed that is was worthy of
inclusion, but that doesn't mean it will be accepted, that is the community's choice.
That is what the miner's didn't understand at the HK meeting. The fact that SegWit
isn't already part of the protocol shows that the Core Devs during the HK meeting
were trying to be honest and reasonable. Devs are not all powerful. They can create
and propose, but if other devs, exchanges, miners, and users don't want that feature
it will not become the standard. In my opinion 2MB hardfork is more contentious in the
community than a SegWit softfork, but that is just my opinion. The expectations during

LOL that's a new low even for you.

Like you're just going to sit there with a straight face and ignore the fact that SegWit is stuck in the mud because Blockstream/Core thought they could fuck over both miners and nodes at the same time.

Blockstream ignored nodes and went softfork because they thought they got miners in their pockets, even though they already fucked them over with the 1MB, that's how arrogant Blockstream/Core were, that's what fucked them.

That is why this is ridiculous because I'll let the experts prove me right or wrong.
But you were the one who was arguing there were no "facts". Which is backwards.
Either you are protecting Bitmain and Antpool, or you are just backwards here.

I am saying you talk a lot of shit but there were never anything to back it up.

After I bated you I now know for sure you're the kind of troll that looks into every detail trying to win an argument. But you just couldn't find any evidence to support your claims, that's why you had to play dumb all the time.

By the way, how does it actually feel to have to talk like a dumb fuck all the time, knowing everything that comes out of your mouth is bullshit and everyone else can see through it?

If I have to do that I'd probably quit within a week.


I looked online at twitter timezones and Githubs and according to my simple research,
twitter shows the time based on your timezone and GitHub is based on EDT. This means
that Jihan tweeted 1 hour and 21 minutes after chjj edited the Ext block code no matter
where you are in the world. That is all I was pointing out.

Everything you are writing now is irrelevant to your original posting to me. You claimed
that Jihan tweeted BEFORE chjj changed it as a blockstream conspiracy, when in fact, it
was the other way, which either means it is a Jihan conspiracy or just "coincidence".

I baited you, the edit was the bait, BIP-141 was the net, you still don't get it?

You're now trying to wiggle around by using the idiotic assumption that Jihan only learned about Extension Block the last minute and voiced its support immediately. That is, by making the assumption that the whole time since March, Jihan never learned about what Extension block was until the moment before he voiced his support.

But the bait was Extension Block had always been immune to ASICBoost. The github edit would throw you off because you're the kind of shill that play dumb and repeat bullshits, but secretly you're actually looking at all possible details for a rebuttal. That's how I exposed you as a paid shill.

You know exactly what bullshit you're talking about, you're intentionally talking like a dumb fuck all the time, because that's your job.

You don't have the technical understanding of BIP-141, that's why you fell for the edit. That is the long con you fell for, I gave you a detail you'd bite on, but once you bite on it, you're already inside the net.

The idea that a business man like Jihan wouldn't look over Extension Block at least a few times and think over it for a few days before voicing his support, is hilarious.

You've mistaken Jihan for some Blockstream troll where everything they say online is decided at the last minute, base on whatever they could see at the time.

I don't know the patent laws in China, but in the West a patent doesn't only protect the
selling of the idea in product form, but also prevents you from construction and use. If for
example, Bitmain did patent ASICBoost and had the full rights to it, no one else in the
world is technically allowed to build, use, or sell a chip that uses the same configuration
without a license from Bitmain, otherwise that is patent theft. Maybe some will or could
do it, but bitmain could attempt to find them liable and get damages from that company.

For other miners not to be found liable, they need to create a new ASICBoost configuration
that is different from Bitmain's version and no miners are going to invest in R&D for that now,
IMO. Either Jihan opens up the rights to all parties for free or we need to patch the protocol.

Or its possible there could be a wind-down agreement where Jihan can use it for the next 3
years as long as he halves the usage every 1 year, in agreement to accept SegWit unpatched
now. Then in 3 years we patch ASICboost and have SegWit. Of course, Jihan might like that,
but bigblockers will not since they never get their blocksize increase. But it is just an idea for
fun for negotiation purposes. Maybe something along these lines could be negotiated.

Irrelevant, putting patent in product helps win patent lawsuits, it's that simple.

The funny thing about you trolls is you guys keep assuming Jihan is the only guy on the planet who can build ASIC chips that use ASICBoost. Patent doesn't stop any nameless mining farm from building their own ASICBoost rigs, ASICBoost existed for years, anyone could have been using it for years. That's why this ASICBoost bullshit is just another obvious distraction.

If Blockstream/Core don't like ASICBoost, they should just change the fucking code.

I am not pinning everything on ASICBoost. It is just that it is an interesting puzzle piece
the community did not include in their mental equation as to why there is a stalemate.
When you add this ASICBoost element into it, things seem logical again.

It makes more sense that Jihan could block SegWit over an ASICBoost patch more than
truely wanting bigger blocks. Miners do not want bigger blocks. In the past, it took the Core
devs forever to get the miners to raise their soft caps. Weeks would go by and the miners
weren't paying attention. I think certain miners wanting bigger blocks now, is a myth.

Yeah, let's all just act like a bunch of dumb fuck again and just ignore the fact so many people is ditching SegWit because they are pissed at Blockstream/Core.

Let's all repeat ASICBoost in every paragraph and make accusations like a bunch of completely uninformed retards.

No one should listen to me.

This is the first time I am agreeing with you.
59  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: AsicBoost Probably the reason Segwit is being blocked. on: April 09, 2017, 10:07:15 PM
coindesk is a well known Blockstream mouthpiece.


partially agree.

They have investor ties... but even Coindesk still publishes big block articles (they recently did one on bcoin)
and many of the articles have a neutral stance.  

Even they have to go against Blockstream/Core if they want to remain credible.  That's how insane things are.  

With Blockstream/Core fucking up left right and center, Coindesk had to put on an act from time to time to pretend they're not totally bias.

At this point we should be seeing articles like:
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-core-runs-trolling-campaigns-says-lightning-network-developer/
Bitcoin Core Runs “Trolling Campaigns”, Says Lightning Network Developer

But you'll never see those on Coindesk.

You also won't see theses, articles of Blockstream's enemy-of-the-week defending themselves:
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitmain-never-used-asicboost-production-says-jihan-wu/
“Bitmain Has Never Used AsicBoost in Production”, Says Jihan Wu

Bcoin supports SegWit, and as of a week ago you started hearing more sane voices out there, even from individuals in Blockstream/Core, they probably realized their old plans had no chance, and with the deadline looming, they're moving to plan B to find a way to launch SegWit as soon as possible.


60  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: AsicBoost Probably the reason Segwit is being blocked. on: April 09, 2017, 09:07:57 PM
coindesk is a well known Blockstream mouthpiece.


That is to say, the vast majority of people support Core as the most open and reasonable method for improving Bitcoin. Since Blockstream has some devs helping Core, biased people can complain that most of the bitcoin community is a "Blockstream mouthpiece" but that gets a bit silly.

That is so fucking retarded, that wasn't even what I said. If you have no proper come back, the don't quote me and pretend you had one.

Vast majority of people have no idea what's going on, 1/3 of the nodes don't even vote or upgrade properly.

But some of us know what is going on, and we're calling Blockstream/Core out on their bullshits.
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