P.S Whenever you see Inaba/Josh attempt to bash other vendors for minor slips, keep in mind his own vendor has oil spills the size of Kansas.

That lame attempt to portray other vendors in a negative light just needed a few tweaks to make it a mirror for BFL's own lack luster performance.

You can't throw a rock in a glass house I think the saying goes.

If you really want to corner someone who is doing trollish defense out of self interests.

1) Simply ask them what is so great about BFL. (in very concise terms...no vague remarks)

2) Then, ask them how they view the faults of BFL. (again, in very concise terms)

3) Once they have excused their chosen vendor for their errors, however grave it may be...

4) Use or "Adapt" the exact same reasons and words they used or employed to defend your own vendor.

(Note: If they try to invalidate their own arguments, then you use their invalidation attempts against their own points. Zero Sum Game.)

5) The trollish crowd will keep quiet having been backed into a self created corner.

6) Repeat.

Actually, they haven't been paid yet as far as I know.

They have been promised that when BFL's products are ready, then they will receive one for free.

-----------------------------

People who are in the contest or have been promised an item because they "won"...for doing pretty much nothing but becoming a walking billboard....have a reason to defend BFL.

If BFL fails to deliver (for any number of reasons) they neither get their purchase orders nor their free item that they won.
If BFL does delivery, they just sold a bit of their pride for hardware.

The interesting thing is not that they want "free stuff" and are willing to edit their collective signature....I mean who wouldn't right?
The really interesting part is what it does to their psychology and how they handle whatever may happen that threatens that return.

For example, if customers complain and bitch and moan (legitimately) because they haven't yet received their item, then they have to protect their own interests and drown out the complaints. (Trollish)

Another example, if there are droves of people heading out of BFL and asking for refunds, the walking bill board folk, will fall into two possible categories. They are either the type to ask people to GTFO even faster by throwing them out the window. Or, they are the type to call for people to "hold on" a "bit longer" that everything will be alright. (probably true if BFL does someday deliver)

------------------------

To put it simply, the walking bill boards have an invested interest. More so than just a paying customer.

If BFL gets too many refunds and for whatever reason they cannot continue their operations of building the ASIC, then they are SOL. (Sh*t Outta Luck)

Excuse my parlance.

When you argue with those whom seem to be overly accepting of the delays and call out for others to hold on, keep in mind they are looking out for themselves. If their vendor goes, so do they.

EXCEPTIONS: There are only a few exceptions that wear the banner and are still critical of BFL.

I doubt there are 88 chips. But if there were, the slightest overclocking of that group of chips would incur one hell of a performance gain. (And lots of extra electrical use)

@ Friz

A strong counter point is proving that there have been more than 2 delays as well as how long the duration is between each one.

Slock is citing an [estimate] of 4 to 7 days delay for Avalon. Compare that to the average BFL delay of multiple weeks and the whole thing is contrasted pretty easily. It's an ant vs dog type of comparison. (a scale issue IMO)

Unfortunately, bASIC delays are unclear to me. I do not have a solid idea as to how long they are taking or have estimated to be taking. Someone will have to inform me of that.

As the Avalon reps previously stated that 60Gh/s itself was a very conservative value. I am going to further guess they had envisioned using less efficient chips than 7.5Gh/s and that they were using a shotgun approach of many chips to compensate for the inefficiency.

If they are actually using 4.5Gh/s chips. Then by increasing the number of chips, they increase the performance. (as well as the power use)

4.5Gh/s seems to be a conservative enough number to me. Not as high as 7.5Gh/s per chip which caused "disbelief" of competitors claims by Avalon representatives for various reasons.

Assuming 4.5 is the Avalon standard per ASIC:

2 chips =  9 Gh/s @ 5 watts per Gh/s power consumption is --> 45 watts
4 chips = 18 Gh/s @ 5 watts per Gh/s power consumption is --> 90 watts
6 chips = 27 Gh/s @ 5 watts per Gh/s power consumption is --> 135 watts
8 chips = 36 Gh/s @ 5 watts per Gh/s power consumption is --> 180 watts
10 chips = 45 Gh/s @ 5 watts per Gh/s power consumption is --> 225 watts
12 chips = 54 Gh/s @ 5 watts per Gh/s power consumption is --> 270 watts
14 chips = 63 Gh/s @ 5 watts per Gh/s power consumption is --> 315 watts
16 chips = 72 Gh/s @ 5 watts per Gh/s power consumption is --> 360 watts
18 chips = 81 Gh/s @ 5 watts per Gh/s power consumption is --> 405 watts
20 chips = 90 Gh/s @ 5 watts per Gh/s power consumption is --> 450 watts
22 chips = 99 Gh/s @ 5 watts per Gh/s power consumption is --> 495 watts
24 chips = 108 Gh/s @ 5 watts per Gh/s power consumption is --> 540 watts

If Avalon has 4055 chips per wafer and 2/3 turn out bad, then to service 300 customers they would only have about 1,350 ASICs per wafer. They would need multiple wafers (4 actually).

If each Avalon would have about 4 chips. Each would have to run at about 16.5 GH/s.

--------------------
We know it won't be that few because Avalon has already commented that they believe that their competitors claims of 7.5Gh/s per chip is "unrealistic".

So, I will revise my numbers and go on what they originally have planned in the past.

--------------------

In the past, Avalon claimed they were going to design a device with up to 15 chips. They later said that plan was out.

But assuming they originally planned for 15 chips lets do the math....

60Gh/s \ 15 = 4Gh/s per chip.

So by their original ideas at their original spec of 60Gh/s, they had planned for 4Gh/s chips.
At 4Gh per chip, they would require about 4.500 chips to fulfill their first batch (of 300). That is currently more than a single wafer holds. (Assuming 100% working chips, which is just unlikely)

------------------------

Assuming their old design used anywhere from 60 to 600 watts as one of their reps stated, the original chips had a power use of anywhere from

Best case: 1 watt per Gh/s
Worst case: 10 watts per Gh/s

Of course this is not including all the other electronics and various kinds of inefficiencies of a normal Power Supply.

Their current revision is now at 400 watts.
Which means their current guesstimate is somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 watts per Gh/s. Probably less considering all the other onboard electronics. Probably somewhere in the range of 5 watts.

---------------------------

I am going to make a forecast that they are using an even number of chips rather than an odd number of chips.

So either they are probably using 12 ASICs at 5.5Gh/s each. In 2 clusters?

or 16 ASICs at 4.1 GH/s. 4 clusters?

or 24 ASICs at 2.75Gh/s. 8 Clusters?

Contradictions of all sorts ruined the "honesty".

Josh says that they will be ready to ship in October.
Jody then reveals in November or December that they don't yet have all the parts to ship yet....Stating as soon as all the parts are in, they will be able to ship. (And no, she was not referring to ASIC chips.)
Josh then gloats in late November or early December that the storage room is filling up with parts.

--------------

When Josh is asked, "When will Yochdog or Kano be invited for the plane ride to see the new facility?"
Josh responds that there is nothing yet to see. Late in November and again in December if I am not mistaken.

--------------

What honesty?

You are just doling out the delays in small increments to keep customers happy as far as I can see. Feel free to spin or "correct me" if you really believe that is even possible.

If I ask a simple question, you will duck and run for the nearest hill.

Here is a good question:



That one above is from Mr Teal.

------------------------

This is mine though:

What did you even have "ready" in October?

You didn't find out about the delays of your fab until the last hour (late in October).
You seemingly didn't have the parts.
You didn't even have your new facility up and ready (and still don't).
You haven't finished moving in at the new facility as of today. (still under construction)
You were going to be doing final assembly at the new facility.
You didn't have the cases done for various models until just now. (Probably still don't)
You didn't finish the Mini rig designs until very late in November or well into December.

etc.

So what was actually "ready" in October?

P.S. You certainly knew the above in October.

I prefer you answer Mr. Teals full line of questions rather than answer mine. It will be 10x more evident that you honesty is anything but, if you answer his questions.

Post of the day:



Give that guy a cigar, he has earned it over and over again.

Actually that applies to every ASIC company.

The next hurdle after that is passed, is whether their [any ASIC vendors] hardware is stable and free of long term problems.

I have rewritten this only for comedic relief. This is an artistic expression not meant to be sourced from BFL at all.

-----------------------------

BFL ASIC Delays - An In-Depth Explanation

Anticipation is running high at Butterfly Labs in advance of receipt of our chips from the foundry. The production of these very dense, hand-routed chips are the reason for the delay in the latest line of bitcoin mining machines. Unlike our competitors, Butterfly Labs ASIC chips are 100% custom. Producing custom chips requires foundry scheduling and forces us into the queue with other chip developers (from all industries). This is true of all contracted production at a fab, including that of Avalon AND bASIC. All of them have to be scheduled and placed into a queue.

The design is complete. █WTF?█ It’s just a matter of waiting for production and delivery. The boards, enclosures, and assembly teams are standing by, anxiously awaiting delivery of the chips so we can begin assembly and start shipping.

Remember this paragraph, then laugh, as you read the exact same below. (Please, I encourage you to read the original for extra laughs!)

Our competitors We are facing worse challenges.
Recent posts from BFL have outlined redesign plans and delays for their chip and board. When aA road map doesn't exist, let alone a trail to follow, it canwe create situations that require extra time to develop solutions throughout the development process. Butterfly Labs has been down this road before and we anticipated, long ago, the issues that bASIC iswe are now facing. The reality is, this technology does not exist anywhere else in the world. It's not as though you can go to a big box electronics retailer and buy this technology off of the shelf.

The ASIC miners are revolutionary machines that will render most, if not all, graphics card miners ineffective and cost prohibitive. ASIC miners will not be eclipsed as quickly and significantly as their predecessor, the FPGA units. They are meant to be a long-term investment. Their performance should be sustained for at least two years and potentially as many as five years. That is not to say that there won't be improvements over the next few years; there will be. The improvements just won't be the night and day difference of the ASIC vs. FPGA technologies.

Butterfly Labs is committed to offering products and solutions that will enable bitcoin miners to pay us to remain competitive. That is why we have an upgrade program for all of itsour [typo] FPGA customers to be able to receive 100 percent trade-in value towards a new Single SC or Mini Rig SC. [This is actually called vendor lock in] Nowhere in the world can you find that kind of offer. [Except Avalon and bASIC with their own trade in programs!] It's similar to buying a high performance car one day and then after six months going back to the dealer and asking for 100 percent of what you paid towards a new, even higher performance car. It is unprecedentedquite common, to say the least.

So let us repeat - The only uncertainty left is the exact date in January our 100% custom BFL ASIC chips will arrive at our facility. [plus 20 to 30 days for PCB assemble, test, and final assembly...err February..] And we’re getting closer to knowing that exact date now. [LMAO]

For the latest informationexcuses and delays visit Jody's Customer Service Blog, and more, please visit our new BFL
Forums at <https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/>
[/quote]

Sounds like the truth?

MPW = ?

Wait...did you get refunded the 8,000 USD equivalent in Bitcoins or did they "literally" give you back the same coins you paid with at the time?

If it is the latter, then you sir have just [possibly] opened Pandoras box.

Whoa, 1 week. I thought they said it would be "prompt"?

May I ask by which method they refunded you? (WireTransfer? Swift? Paypal Refund? Paypal Send Money? BTC?)

The reason I ask, is because I thought there were limits to how much money you could refund in such a short period of time without it looking incredibly suspicious. Especially for Paypal.

And...any change in the power/hash numbers?

Link: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/519-10-dec-2012-bfl-asic-update-18.html#post8108

The BFL rep says you guys will have "clock buffer" issues. Any truth to that?

You mean...300 hundred lucky individuals will mine like crazy while the other thousands are stuck waiting in line? Say it ain't so!

How many wafers are you two waiting on at this time?

Newsletter time?

Nah, he just [probably] disowned BFL as a legitimate vendor. Sent all the redundant threads into limbo, where even BFL cannot find them.

BFL should pay Theymos the ad rent they owe.

Now ASICMINER is our new attention. BFL Who?