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4101  Economy / Speculation / Re: I just cashed out my lot of Bitcoins for Gold. Here's why. on: June 08, 2013, 06:51:01 PM
Historically the gold/silver ratio has been averaging 1/16 (this goes back to ancient history).
Currently gold is over this ration, so I would expect silver to do better than gold in the near term.
As to what both will do against bitcoin, that would be pure speculation but all are alternatives to inflating currencies.
No one knows when inflation is coming, but when it does, it typically comes quicker than folks expect.
4102  Economy / Goods / Re: Thinking about creating my own physical Bitcoin... on: June 08, 2013, 04:30:37 PM
Definitely interested in 1 BTC silver rounds!  The market needs competition.

Please expect our offering into this market of fine silver and gold bitcoin pieces shortly as well.
4103  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin at $112! on: June 08, 2013, 02:43:13 PM
109 . . .

They are on sale.
4104  Other / Politics & Society / Re: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? on: June 08, 2013, 09:00:52 AM
someone who works for free is also a volunteer.
An office worker might not be a volunteer,


If work without pay is volunteer, and with pay is slavery, then we are in a place I've never been.  Or heard of for that matter.
4105  Economy / Speculation / Re: Liberty Reserve shutdown is a boost for Bitcoin? on: June 08, 2013, 04:33:44 AM
I'm not endorsing anyone's arguments, but the fact that sources are concealed (or perhaps more suitably, that attempts were made to conceal the sources) doesn't mean there is no evidence of illegal proceeds.
Well, answer my question then. What evidence would you have of money being illegal if you don't know where they come from?
You made the same assumption again. How do you know that I don't know? That attempts were made to conceal the sources does not necessarily make it so.
Again, you avoid answering my question. The reason you avoid answering is obvious. There is no way to claim my money are illegal if you don't know where they come from!

So, LR can't be indicted for money laundering since there is no way they knew where their customers money were coming from!

There are very many ways to determine the flow of funds.  Those may not be the most difficult part of the criminal allegation. The electronic record is only one of many pieces of evidence that can be brought to a court.  Testimony, affidavits, confessions of others who did buisiness with them.  All of those can be problems for the accused.

I don't know all the specifics of what they are being charged with, but I suspect it may include:

26 USC §7203 - Willful Failure to Keep Records
Willfulness will also be inferred if a concealment motive is part of the failure to keep records. However, an important factor in the probability of conviction in these investigations may be a substantial deficiency attributable to the failure to keep records.

The "willfulness" may require evidence of statements they made, or other communication records.  That may prove a more difficult thing than "knowing where the money came from".  It is very likely that the prosecutors won't have detail on all the transactions, (reportedly there were about 55 million transactions) but they likely have details on more than just a few.
4106  Other / Off-topic / Re: Let's Count to 21 Million with Images on: June 07, 2013, 11:45:48 PM
4107  Other / Off-topic / Re: Let's Count to 21 Million with Images on: June 07, 2013, 11:45:00 PM
4108  Other / Off-topic / Re: Let's Count to 21 Million with Images on: June 07, 2013, 11:40:41 PM
4109  Other / Off-topic / Re: Let's Count to 21 Million with Images on: June 07, 2013, 11:39:06 PM
4110  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Response to CIA FOIA request on: June 07, 2013, 10:49:13 PM
Quote
I want a clearance lol

No you don't it's a pain in the ass. You even have to fill out forms to travel abroad.
Agreed.  It is a cost more than a benefit.
4111  Economy / Speculation / Re: Liberty Reserve shutdown is a boost for Bitcoin? on: June 07, 2013, 08:10:27 PM
I can't say who is right and who is wrong in this LR stuff, but the legal system is working as it was designed. 
Not at all. You seem to forget the definition of money laundering you pointed out? You don't have any evidence of illegal money because their source is concealed. To have any evidence of money being illegal you have to know the source. Simple as that.

Your arguments are the same the Holy Inquisition used during the dark ages. Inquisition agents selected their targets on "probable cause" based on "some evidence". During the interrogation the "defendant" has to prove he/she is law-abiding citizen and that he/she is not guilty. If the poor victim died during the "indictment process" this was the ultimate proof that they were guilty, because God won't allow innocent people to die.

I don't have any evidence of anything, and am not involved in the case in any way.  The evidence was presented to the judge who processed the warrants.  If this is anything like most criminal cases, the evidence has been piling up for a long while and they don't pull the trigger on prosecuting until they are pretty sure they have what they need, or they aren't likely to get anything better by waiting. 

And yes, modern law is based on some pretty archaic and ancient principles, though the frequency that they blame god for things since the inquisition has decreased.

To be clear, you are arguing against someone who is a strong advocate of 4th amendment protections, and is more or less on your side.  All I have been doing is explaining the process.  It is not so unusual.

As to what evidence the prosecution might have there are all sorts of possibilities irrespective of where any particular transfer originated.  According to the public reports, this was the combined effort of 17 countries.  For AML, usually it is some criminal that gets caught on something more serious that cooperates with their local authorities and explain to them their process.  Sometimes they get a lower penalty when the give the state evidence against others.  The electronic transfer record is not the only evidence that can exist, so even if you are acting anonymously digitally, you may not be anonymous in other ways.
=-=-
...from a recent theft of some $45 million from two Middle Eastern banks. “The complaint against one of the Dominican Republic gang members allegedly involved in the theft states that thousands of dollars' worth of stolen cash was deposited into two Liberty Reserve accounts via currency centers based in Siberia and Singapore,” the AP reported.
4112  Economy / Speculation / Re: Liberty Reserve shutdown is a boost for Bitcoin? on: June 07, 2013, 04:41:37 PM
Then the presumption is that at least some of it is ill-gotten
No. The presumption always is "not guilty unless your guilt is proven"! Or, are you saying that AML law is an exception to this universal principle in every judicial system? You're guilty by presumption and you have to prove you are not guilty?!
...if there is probable cause for indictment and some evidence against them.

Please accept my apologies for putting an important part of the sentence near the end where it can be neatly chopped off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause
Probable cause is like probable pregnancy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy

Is the probable pregnancy a pregnancy or it isn't?

So, please accept my apologies I should have modified the universal principal to suit AML laws. It should read - "not guilty unless you're probably guilty"

Or to put it more accurately, once prosecution shows evidence of all the prongs of the crime, the burden is on the defense to create doubt and one ignores this at their own risk.

Further, when probable cause is established, and the prosecution convinces a judge that the crimes are continuing and the only way to stop them is to hurt innocents, sometimes a judge agrees! 
They think of it as blocking traffic on a block where there is a violent crime occurring.  Lots of folks suffer but they think that maybe they stop something worse from happening and make an injunction judgement on that risk.

I can't say who is right and who is wrong in this LR stuff, but the legal system is working as it was designed.  Disagree with the design if you like, but it is not good to ignore it.
4113  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin at $112! on: June 07, 2013, 04:11:01 PM
Too much good news to drop below $100. Even with the lack of a decent exchange, I believe we'll hold up, and if price does crash through $100, I hope you all have your fiat ready to go!
I buy my bitcoin with silver and gold because I value my bitcoin community too much to pay in fiat.
4114  Economy / Speculation / Re: One day, holding one bitcoin will make you a millionaire. on: June 07, 2013, 04:07:46 PM
There is nothing special about bitcoin.  Anyone can start a new tree and start mining to transfer value across the internet.  This is likely to be become very attractive if a bitcoin ever reaches an absurd value level.

In the case that government is good (lol) and BTC survives, then the above quote is so true, and most people try ignore that fact.

Most software over time becomes obsolete, due to new hardware, new operating systems, or just better ways of writing the code. I could give a ton of examples of this, and I'm sure everyone reading this can quickly come up with many examples of software that is so old that we don't use it anymore. BTC will obviously evolve and update to newer technology, so even if we do have BTC in 10 years from now, might not even been the same old BTC as before.

If someone was smart enough to create BTC the way it is now, then what is to stop someone from stealing the idea, making a new tree, and possibly modified to be better or more desired?

Math eventually is obsoleted as well, but the leaps between old and new tend to take a LOT longer, and to be more disruptive.
Bitcoin is resilient to software and hardware advancement.  Worry/hope instead about math advancement.
4115  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Its artificial on: June 07, 2013, 03:50:09 PM
"money laundering" is an artificial, made-up crime.
All crimes are.

Surely you mean non-violent ones?
Hopefully he does.
I mean all crimes. Even the violent crimes weren't crimes until someone(s) decided they are.

By the same measure, so also are words, ideas, and the characterisation of all experiences are artifice.
At the risk of skipping to your punchline, why make this distinction as to whether it is or isn't artificial if all are?
4116  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: 100 free Goldcoins GDC for 1st 100 people on: June 07, 2013, 03:16:22 PM
DwvANN2Kye4WwwzhY8prhLLu88UypbSJX2

Am I #100?
4117  Economy / Speculation / Re: Liberty Reserve shutdown is a boost for Bitcoin? on: June 07, 2013, 02:56:58 PM
Then the presumption is that at least some of it is ill-gotten
No. The presumption always is "not guilty unless your guilt is proven"! Or, are you saying that AML law is an exception to this universal principle in every judicial system? You're guilty by presumption and you have to prove you are not guilty?!
...if there is probable cause for indictment and some evidence against them.

Please accept my apologies for putting an important part of the sentence near the end where it can be neatly chopped off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause
4118  Other / Politics & Society / Re: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? on: June 07, 2013, 02:48:07 PM
My body is an object, it is owned by me. The systemic, unidealized process of selling my labor for a wage or other price is not dissimilar to slavery. I cannot sell my labor for a fair price, because my labor cannot be returned to me. I can be coerced into selling my labor by circumstances beyond my control, namely the stigma of joblessness, the risk of homelessness and starvation, the boot of the cop, the IRS agent and the soldier.
Who has a claim on my labor? Every living person has a fraction of a claim as long as they don't put me on their books as an employee.
Mutual aid, not greed or euphemisms for it drive the evolution of the world.
This is a beautiful and generous sentiment.
To do that which is meaningful for many is aspirational and laudable.
One who can make a contribution to every living person is rare and precious.

Capitalism is dying.
One of the risks of the philosophical is that we can lose touch with the broad popular usage of words to which we may ascribe a narrow meaning and purpose.
In the broad sense, capitalism is dying, it is killing, it is wickedness, greed, corruption, selfishness, jealousy and all manner of other wrongs.
In the narrow sense the philosopher might say those were not capitalism, but greed and the corruption inherent in creating and empowering the engine of a government useful for turning against our fellows and coercing what is theirs for our benefit.
http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html
That capitalism instead is the pure and noble voluntary exchange for mutual benefit which depends on having some decision authority (capitalism's ownership) over what we each might exchange.  To seek a higher mutual affluence through trade.
But this philosopher can only speak with other philosophers who use the same definitions, and those are likely already in agreement about much.
And so broad labels often do not serve us well, and when we use them to attack an argument we unwittingly often engage in making straw men.

We also forget why we argue at all, which is to benefit our common understandings, rather than to defeat a foe.  I suspect the only foes I can ever address are the wrong ideas I myself hold.  For all I've written, I may never have convinced anyone else of anything.  I may like to think I am helping someone else in understanding something, but in honesty admit that is more likely vanity.
4119  Other / Politics & Society / Re: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? on: June 07, 2013, 10:14:38 AM

Capitalism- an historical era where the means of production and products belonged exclusively to moneyed entrepreneurs, state officials, and speculators due to state protection of legal claims to privateized property.
There, does that not cover both communism and capitalism as they have always existed?

Well, of course not, but at least it's a start.  What you seem to be railing against could be either corporatism (i.e. fascism) or merchantilism, or both; but it's certainly not capitalism in it's natural form.  Both of those could be considered corrupted versions of capitalism, so I can see the confusion, but one should be willing to start with first principles. 

The first principle is this...

Who owns you?  Is there anyone who has a greater claim upon your body, thus your life, then yourself?  If we cannot agree that I own myself and that you own yourself, as nominally free adults, then we can't proceed.



True, but also don't ignore the validity of Kittn's point that:
The difference between the philosophic capitalism and what is in practice are not the same.  Using the same word for both is confusing.
"Communism" likewise.
"Anarchy" as well.
The terms are appropriated by popular culture and media.
4120  Other / Politics & Society / Re: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? on: June 07, 2013, 03:38:01 AM
But yes, that was his goal. His means, however, don't work. He is elegant though. The communist manifesto is beautiful. Seductive, in fact. Unfortunate that it's core program just don't work.
It may not work, but folks are working toward it anyhow.
Marx/Engels may have had a more profound effect on US politics than many of his contemporary presidents.  Seems like we are following his playbook more than not:
http://www.libertyzone.com/Communist-Manifesto-Planks.html
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