I've stayed out of this debate because I really don't understand it. Maybe one of you can explain it to me. Here's what I see.
Everyone is delusional and believes there are 100 million users out there in the ether just dying to use Bitcoin but can't because the current limit keeps it from being used (Satoshidice proved that to be false long ago). We have to find a fix for this spam restriction issue within the next year or chicken little is going to fall from the sky and take a giant shit on Bitcoin. There's a couple of ways to do it that involve different levels of increase. The Chinese (mining majority) want an 8mb increase because 8 is a lucky number in China and their bandwidth isn't good enough to support a larger change. Part of the tiny dev team want sidechains to do it because they work for a company that will profit from it. Another part wants to raise the cap some and another part wants to raise it a lot.
Am I close at all and if not what am I missing?
You've got the gist of the debate, which is predicated on a false (empirically denied by the results of the stress tests) sense of urgency. You've wrong about the defamatory Sidechains=Block$treamCon$piracy nonsense. BTC core devs can name their price in the private sector; they don't need to resort to cartoonish Snidely Whiplash schemes. You should know that by now... Here's a key bit of info you missed:  Lightning's scaling potential also stacks on top of side and alt chains. LN can run on top of sidechains which are pegged to LTC, VIA, XCN, XPM, PPC, and perhaps even XMR (probably/eventually). All of these Layer 2+ and Layer A+ permutations depend on Bitcoin's Layer 1 remaining diverse, diffuse, defensible, and resilient. That's why I support davout's BIP000 (AKA Bram Cohen's " 1MB now, then reassess in 2 years" proposal). The most important point BIP000 makes is " blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security." If you don't understand that simple yet profound fact, you don't understand Bitcoin (and probably failed Econ 1). |
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We are fucked with XT and we are fucked with 1MB blocks. Solution: A reasonable blocksize increase with blockstream. Unfortunately it seems you have to choose between decentralization of nodes or low fees for everyone (at the expense of centralizing the nodes).
 Everything fine over here... Let's start a Trolltalk drinking game, where we take a shot every time some moran expresses their false sense of urgency. |
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Now: XT/101 Officially #REKT
2016: 1MB endures, aided by Alts, Sidechains, and Lightning (maybe extension blocks too)
best regards
FIFY  As long as appropriate fees continue to prioritize their transactions, shorting fake "Bitcoins" will work just as well to prevent contentious forks next year as it does today. Cheers! |
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Happy little 1MB'ers. XT triggered so many BIPs about limit increase now.
The great thing about having so many BIPs is they collectively slow the process down to a deep freeze of eternal consideration. Those of us who like the 1MB cap get exactly what we wanted all along. Yes. We know that you trojans are happy about the current stalemate. But it won't last. Why Monero matters
Adaptive limits. Doesn't suffer from the 1MB block limits.https://moneroeconomy.com/faq/why-monero-mattersAre you saying Bitfury, F2POOL ("Gavin should be fired"), LukeJr, Mircea Popescu, thermos, and Blockstream are against XT because they want to kill Bitcoin, in order to pave the way for Monero? Do you realize how counterfactual and paranoid you are being? Monero matters because its blockchain is private by default and resists analysis. The trade off for that privacy is greater bloat per tx, so without a Layer 2 it's not much more scalable than Bitcoin. For years, we've been told the "current stalemate" "won't last." But here we are with 1MB blocks. Go sell your false sense of urgency somewhere else. We're didn't buy it when Death&Taxes was moaning about coffee, and we're not going to change our minds about it now. Your limited success in creating a temporary stampede among the cattle at /r/bitcoin is over. BIP101 and XT are DOA.  1. You are not Szabo 2. Is the new Szabo the old Szabo? http://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-10#post-3113. If I compare the posts of @Death&Taxes with those of the @LittleDogs, I know which side will win in the end. Death&Taxes' false sense of urgency, which debuted way back in February, is long past its expiration date. You can only cry wolf for so long before rational people tune you out. You Gavinistas need to manufacture a fresh new fake crisis, as the 'stress tests' only backfired by showing the world how well Bitcoin works under an ambient backlog. I edited the word 'Szabo' out of my previous post. That didn't change the meaning of it one bit. Now what? Got any more kneejerk objections as splendidly non sequitur as ' B-B-B-BUT Szabo is a Pod Person, Because Maybe?'  |
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So who's winning, red or blue? I can't tell you guys apart anymore for all the name-calling and tantrums.  Ah yes, yet another poster more concerned with process objections (zomg someone is being rude on the internet) than technical details about scaling Bitcoin. That's the opposite of what I was saying. This thread, like pretty much all others on the issue, has completely ditched any actual technical discussion in favour of the usual primate shit-slinging as far as I can tell. It's coming from both "sides", if you can call them that, since the only difference seems to be that both hate each other's guts. What's a Gavinista? I'd like a technical breakdown of the term so I can see if I'm one. There you go again, with your process objection meta. I'll fetch your fainting couch because in an unprecedented outbreak of ill manners, several Bitcoiners (having uncharacteristically strong opinions) have expressed themselves vehemently! Gavinista is a play on Sandinista, a Marxist variant of the Free Shit Army that came to power in a putsch comparable to Gavin's takeover bid. As you sympathize with Death&Taxes' long-debunked Chicken Little panic over lack of more ~free tx, the Gavinista label applies. I don't hate Frap.doc's guts, I'm just disappointed (albeit amused) he wound up on the wrong side of history but is too stubborn to admit being wrong. As we consider the friendships and fortunes destroyed by the Bitcoin Civil War, let's remember it was Hearn who decided it best to force the governance issue Right Fucking Now, using overhyped block size FUD to incite the mob against their superiors, for the benefit of his junta. As for "primate shit-slinging," yes we are going to rub the Gavinistas' faces in the steaming pile of poo XT represents. There are consequences when you attack (with fully malicious intent) a multi-year multi-billion-dollar socioeconomic consensus and quickly destroy 20% of its market value. These examples of what happens when you attack Bitcoin need to be publicized, so that next time someone considers attacking Bitcoin with their vanity fork, they may account for such precedents in their decision. |
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Please take the OT discussion elsewhere. jeez i've not even seen a chart for three pages.  The sooner XT gets its 75% majority the better as far as i'm concerned. we could do with forking bitcointalk and /r/bitcoin while were at it.  How's that "XT majority" coming along? How's your attempted fork of our socioeconomic majority working out for you?  |
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Happy little 1MB'ers. XT triggered so many BIPs about limit increase now.
The great thing about having so many BIPs is they collectively slow the process down to a deep freeze of eternal consideration. Those of us who like the 1MB cap get exactly what we wanted all along. Yes. We know that you trojans are happy about the current stalemate. But it won't last. Why Monero matters
Adaptive limits. Doesn't suffer from the 1MB block limits.https://moneroeconomy.com/faq/why-monero-mattersAre you saying Bitfury, F2POOL ("Gavin should be fired"), LukeJr, Mircea Popescu, thermos, and Blockstream are against XT because they want to kill Bitcoin, in order to pave the way for Monero? Do you realize how counterfactual and paranoid you are being? Monero matters because its blockchain is private by default and resists analysis. The trade off for that privacy is greater bloat per tx, so without a Layer 2 it's not much more scalable than Bitcoin. For years, we've been told the "current stalemate" "won't last." But here we are with 1MB blocks. Go sell your false sense of urgency somewhere else. We're didn't buy it when Death&Taxes was moaning about coffee, and we're not going to change our minds about it now. Your limited success in creating a temporary stampede among the cattle at /r/bitcoin is over. BIP101 and XT are DOA. |
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... I see there is exactly 1 Member online at Bitco.in. Is that you Zartard? Are you lonley over there, while we keep on partying at thermos' crazy nerd disco? They are actually making screen-caps of this board so they have something to do over there. I guess them milked each other dry in their little circle-jerk already. Could anything possibly be more pathetic? Now that XT is 100% FUKKIN #R3KT all they can do is discuss what's happening here on the real forum. They are like a knitting circle of gossiping old ladies, except instead of making nice sweaters they just produce gobs of butthurt. |
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^Fixed it; no charge. The great thing about having so many BIPs is they collectively slow the process down to a deep freeze of eternal consideration. Those of us who like the 1MB cap get exactly what we wanted all along. You Gavininstas and Redditurds get to keep pounding sand. As a HUUUUGE bonus, Team Core gained the benefit of many greedy impatient illiterate malcontents rage quitting to other forums, as pro-XT advocacy forced many clueless/useless posters (both young and old) to self-identify and encounter ridicule.  I see there is exactly 1 Member online at Bitco.in. Is that you Zartard? Are you lonley over there, while we keep on partying at thermos' crazy nerd disco? |
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So who's winning, red or blue? I can't tell you guys apart anymore for all the name-calling and tantrums. Ah yes, yet another poster more concerned with process objections (zomg someone is being rude on the internet) than technical details about scaling Bitcoin. There's that last resort of moral equivalency I referred to earlier.  Since you can't be bothered to parse the signal from the (icky, ever-so-objectionable) noise, here's a picture which may help you understand who is winning.  Instead pretending to be a neutral arbiter of netiquette, why not just admit you are a Gavinista ( of the Death&Taxes variety)? Oh that's right, I forgot how much Team Gavin loves to mislead the public. Why don't you fork off to an impeccably polite Gavinista circlejerk forum like bitco.in, since the "name-calling and tantrums" here so irritate your delicate sensibilities? |
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You can download XT now, nobody will stop you, you have choice, that is a fork of the code.
You should not tho because its damaging to Bitcoin (I believe). I cant force you either way.
If you run XT (and thus signal commitment to aiding in a "75%" attack on Core) you risk DDoS counterattacks. Some of them are >25Gb, capable of knocking out an entire neighborhood/ISP/region. Your ISP might decide it's a good time to start enforcing the 'no servers' part of their TOS, or just cut you off completely. |
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Him and his cargo cult are still entertaining the no block size cap idea in their new forum You mean the new forum that typically has about 4 3 people online, one of which is me lurking and laughing? Ah oh. World domination is right around the corner. I wonder if fap.doc will sue theymos for stealing his perceived mojo? Theymos giveth, theymos taketh away I guess. XT is sure to win dominate now that Doctor Frappe, the LeBron of Bitcoin, is aboard!  The problem we can't tell if XT is winning, because they are admitting defeat (by NotXT and Bitkiller) and spoofing their version as Core. bitcoin-xt › Changing XT ver string to be the same as Core https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bitcoin-xt/IWg3JHvOWJo The funniest part of this is Hearn sacrificing Lighthouse in a vain attempt to save his vanity fork of Bitcoin! Hearn and Frap.doc are such epic lulzcows. Every day, we get to enjoy fresh buckets of comedy thanks to their hapless, domesticated nature. How quickly then went from 'fine, we'll make our own Bitcoin with giant blocks and blacklists' to 'aww, screw the whole thing.' |
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Happy Halving Day! I'm sending our core devs and other pillars of the community some (private, unlinkable, untraceable) tokens of appreciation. Next Halving Day (21.01.2017) will literally be celebrated ON THE MOON.
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Damn, I wish my old pal cypherdick was around to enjoy the laughs but he ran away with his tail between his legs and leaving a yellow trail some time ago. So sad Him and his cargo cult are still entertaining the no block size cap idea in their new forum You mean the new forum that typically has about 4 people online, one of which is me lurking and laughing? |
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Pretty sure there's been quite enough of that from both sides. Now it's time to cut that shit out and discuss proposals on technical merit and not the personalities involved. Less character assassinations all round, please.
I think there is something to be said for that. Then again, Mike Hearn has proven time and time again to push agendas that are divisive to the community and toxic to decentralization -- redlists, blacklists... I'm legitimately curious what color lists he produces next. Who was it, Wladimir, I think?--that said he was toxic to the development process, that every pull he touched turned to a cesspool? No wonder he was ostracized. (Shrug) You know the Gavinistas are in deep trouble when they resort to playing the moral equivalency card. They have no good options left, and are resorting to the hypocrisy of calling their DoS attacks "stress tests" while at the same time bawling about how retaliatory DoS attacks on their precious XT nodes/pools/sites are " criminal bitcoin terrorism." The XT assclowns are so eager to attack Bitcoin they don't care when their Troll Fork infrastructure naturally encounters pushback, and ensuing counterattacks wipe out internet/phone access for their entire ISP/.edu/region. I wonder how their neighbors would feel if they knew their critical information utilities are being broken because the dweller next door feels entitled to attack Bitcoin with zero repercussions. Perhaps we should be letting them know why they can't watch Fear The Walking Dead, much less use emergency 911 type services... Now that Bitkiller and his 25Gb+ lulzcannon are a known factor, Gavinistas have no excuse for putting their political agenda (governance coup) above the interests of other uses of their networks. In Gavinista Logic, it's perfectly OK to incite attacks which take out your town/ISP/region's connectivity, as they are entitled to attack Bitcoin Core (because thermos/Blockstream/etc. are the epitome of authoritarianism). |
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And you Gavinistas enabled them with your greedy, impatient, simpleminded 'zomg just change 1mb to 8mb and then moon' nonsense and ungrateful, toxic 'zomg szabo/back/thermos >> worse than hitler' social engineering.
Yeah, that was completely one-sided and not even remotely the same thing as your toxic 'zomg gavin/mike >> worse than hitler' social engineering. Pretty sure there's been quite enough of that from both sides. Now it's time to cut that shit out and discuss proposals on technical merit and not the personalities involved. Less character assassinations all round, please. They destroyed $1 billion of our market cap.
All by themselves, huh? And you weren't doing anything at all that might encourage just the slightest hint of uncertainty in the markets? Early this summer, Frap.doc was telling us Bitcoin was coiling for a rally. Then XT happened, and the price went to shit. 100% not Team Core's fault. The price would have gone down even more if not for my (and others) assurances that XT was 100% guaranteed to be #REKT like Stannis at Winterfell. As for "character assassinations" it would help if Team Gavin could distinguish between moderation/moderators and censorship/dictators, as well as the vast difference between stress-testing XT nodes/pools and "terrorism." Don't be surprised when such nauseating self-pity results in a focus on the maudlin personalities involved, because many of us take offense at comparing first world nerd problems to the tragic circumstances of actual censorship/terrorism/dictatorship victims. XT's biggest problem is social. IE, the impatient/demanding/entitled/whiny Can't-Get-Along types who eagerly defected from Team Core's socioeconomic majority are now unable to get along with each other, much less work together effectively to fight Team Core. Speaking of Team Gavin personalities, isn't it hilarious that cedivad (bitcointa.lk) and cypherdoc (bitco.in) can't get along well enough to avoid splitting their XT splinter group into even smaller, less effective, self-imposed ghettos of circlejerking? IOW, Team XT is a group composed of individuals self-selected by virtue of being cranky, fractious malcontents. |
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Time for Schadenfreude Theater, courtesy of the dead-ender Gavinista Sad Pandas at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bitcoin-xt/IoGjEt89CeM. bitcoin-xt › XT nodes dropping. I am concerned about adoption. I hope there are some bright ideas as to how to get Bitcoin XT adopted by miners because right now it's looking pretty bleak. I don't mean to be a negative Nancy but there needs to be a real campaign and concerted effort to bring this change about. The number of XT nodes are dropping. Does anyone know of a specific reason why? XT looks like a deflated balloon Current situation took XT side by surprise, so we need to regroup and come up with a new strategy, and announce it clearly for people to stop feeling depressed and lost. And it requires stronger leadership. Saying things like: > Ultimately XT just gives the community another option. It's up to the wider Bitcoin world to take it. If the community collectively decides that this whole decentralisation thing is too dangerous and unstable to be worth it, well, I guess that means lots of people will lose interest and drift away.is as weak as Obama's "sorry folks, I can't do anything, call your congressman... err... miner". Except we don't have one. Without leadership nothing will happen, XT will flop and a lot of best and brightest, who gathered around it, will feel betrayed and leave. my XT node doesn't live for longer than a few seconds and then dies. >In which case, OK then. As long as the block size keeps ahead of traffic, so be it. This passive attitude from our side (not just you) is one of the reasons why XT looks so bad now with its 1.5% of blocks. Yes, we all hoped that support would be much stronger, but then BIP100 happened and other things, and our side was in limbo for a week. And now what, we just give up? If there is no firm resolution and no active effort but "meh", people won't treat XT seriously and won't consider switching. You need a will first. Right now those on the fence are just waiting for the 8 companies to change their minds and XT will be dead, supporters will feel betrayed and disappointed. The DDoS attack is annoying. Although I don't want the 'bad guy(s) to win', I am also not happy about the extra time and effort (not to mention annoyances) that this takes. I don't want to spend my time fighting to keep a service online that I provide for free, and am considering just taking the nodes offline It is really sad that the attacks on my nodes seem to be coming from the bitcoin community itself Aww, poor Team XT. It's just so sad they are getting fukkin' rekt, exactly as predicted. 
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Any speculations on why the price of Dash dropped on exchanges like Cryptsy?
Dash is dropping because its hype cycle is long over and cannot be repeated. Bitfinex delisted Dash, while Cryptsy added Monero. ETH sucked all the oxygen out of the altcoin room. Dash is past its expiration date and rotting on the shelf. Dash's shady practices ("accidental" insta-mine, "accidental" broken emission, faked airdrop vote, bad crypto, cargo cult, etc) are now well known. Not even yet another shitty amateur promotional video (LOL) will restore the high hopes of last year's (pre-rebrand) Darkcoin mania. Dash will never be the golden donkey you were hoping for (unless your name is among the owners of THE DARKCOIN FOUNDATION INC). Masternode blinding was supposed to be in the most recent release. It wasn't. Yet another lie told to bagholders, while insiders dump and GTFO ASAP. |
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I'll admit - I'm still here on bitcointalk, I still download software from bitcoin.org and I hit /r/bitcoin so that just shows that the network effect is not inconsiderable.
I don't think this is over yet. BIP100 doesn't have consensus (or finalized code). BIP101 could be tweaked with more conservative numbers. We could still be arguing about bigger block BIPxxx a year or two for now. I also don't think XT is pointless. There will be more than one version of consensus software that runs bitcoin and that's a good thing.
We already had "more than one version of consensus software that runs bitcoin" so please spare us the empty platitudes. I already mentioned B100 doesn't have finalized code, and support for it can thus reasonably be interpreted as a giant FUCK YOU to B101. XT's 15 minutes of fame are over. Nobody will ever jump on a Gavin/Heam bandwagon again after such a spectacular failure. They destroyed $1 billion of our market cap. And you Gavinistas enabled them with your greedy, impatient, simpleminded 'zomg just change 1mb to 8mb and then moon' nonsense and ungrateful, toxic 'zomg szabo/back/thermos >> worse than hitler' social engineering. Of course Bitcoin will continue, thanks to the Scaling workshops and Blockstream's amazing innovations. On balance, I believe $1 billion is a small price to pay to (nearly) rid Bitcoin of those who fundamentally lack comprehension (or even dim awareness) of cypherpunk/extropian motivations/methods/goals. |
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