http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?board=51.0

I've seen a serious uptick in the number (and quantity) of farms/rigs/mining cards being sold on this forum.
Especially in the last week or so -- pretty much since the last difficulty level.

And, of course, there is no shortage of such cards on eBay, though I think many of those are put there by common, money-grubbing scalpers. Though there are certainly a percentage of ex-miners represented there.

These guys are the vanguard -- the first guys in line to get out. Their logic goes like this:

"Ok, so I spent $2500 on equipment. I've earned MOST of what I'm going to earn, so why not sell them NOW before the flood of cards hits the market, and my $2500 investment becomes worth much less."

While other people say, "If you're making ANY money over the cost of electricity, even $5 a week with your 5 rigs running 24/7, keep mining, baby!"

Instead of looking at just MINING INCOME and ELECTRICITY COSTS, why not factor in VALUE OF EQUIPMENT as well?

After all, your mining cards are going to lose value every month, especially as difficulty goes up and more and more used cards hit the market. Then there's AMD's 7000 series, which will make gamers like our 6XXX and 5XXX cards even less.

So you should ask yourself: How much will I make in July, vs. how much my 4 mining cards will lose in value?


Like everything, you basically have to guess. Nobody knows the future.

In other words, if your $2500 farm has made $2500 -- you can either A) "re-invest" in $2500 right now -- by doing nothing, and continuing to mine -- and hope to make $2500 or MORE back again, or B) sell it off and end up with $5,000 -- which would result in *actually making money*.

You see, it isn't about "to mine, or not to mine" a month ago -- it's about TODAY. The fact of the matter is, most rigs today are worth 100% (or more) of what we paid. That won't be true in a month. So, basically, you can have it both ways -- you DO mine (preferably May-early June 2011) and earn a bunch if not all of your investment, then sell them before they lose any value. It's pretty clever, if you're not into mining for the techno-nerd geeky "fun" of it.

Personally, I'm into it for the geeky fun. I enjoy building computers more than I enjoy watching movies, going out and doing things, etc. I "hung out" in the computer lab in High School.

Again, the main idea is crucial to understand: selling your equipment does NOT imply you made a mistake, or that you shouldn't have mined in the first place. If you spent $1000 and you've made back $X so far, you have to constantly decide (every week, every month) "Will I make more going forward with mining, or cashing out?" Obviously at first you should have said "I'll mine, of course!" but as time goes on, and returns diminish, it may be worth it for some people to take the "lump sum" rather than the yearly payout.

What's controversial is whether or not $110 is a "lowball offer" for someone selling a Sapphire 5830 for $160.
The card is worth $110 new, so it's not like he's looking to take advantage of the seller, or get a "steal of a deal".
On the other hand, the card isn't available now. So maybe it's worth more like $120 or $130 on the market.

That one is open for debate, I suppose.

But usually lowball offers are like porn. You recognize it when you see it.

No! That's ridiculous.

Have you ever been in the Real Estate market (buying or selling?) I've been both.

Let me teach you -- offers are made all the time. An offer is a price a little bit less than the asking price -- in fact, in real estate you're almost EXPECTED to offer a few thousand less, at least.

A lowball offer is when it's 15 or 20% less than your price, and you're usually insulted.

Being acceptable has nothing to do with. An acceptable offer is "an acceptable offer", then there are offers, then there are lowball offers.

I guess I'll rephrase my original question:

What's the difference between a lowball offer, and an "offer"?

Offers are always to be expected when you're selling things used as a private individual. It doesn't make sense to take offense when you receive them.

I understand you had some issues in your life -- I just wish you had said something -- anything -- on here, even if it was just a few words.

When people get absolute silence, they begin to get worried and assume the worst. I hope you understand.

Obviously I didn't mean to accuse you of anything you're not guilty of -- I just didn't know what to think.

Matthew

Why does it boggle your mind?  People are welcome to make offers.

Maybe they didn't buy it from him for some other reason -- maybe related to his reputation? Who knows. I'll lower the price if need be.

I fail to see any hypocrisy.

I'm not gouging. 2 BTC is $32. This game is supposed to be worth $50. What's the problem?

I have a copy of Dirt3 that has never been used.

Asking 2 BTC or best offer.

Thanks,

Matthew

Just to clarify -- all the hypotheticals in my original post were just that -- hypotheticals. I don't have any monitors for sale, and I'd NEVER pay $250 for a 3 year old machine.

I agree with SgtSpike -- it's part of selling something used to have to deal with people making offers for your stuff. It should be expected. You can always say "no".

If you want to get 100% full price from every customer, start a store. Seriously.

If you're an individual, and you're selling something used, don't expect people to always offer your asking price. You're not NewEgg, and people know it.

Yeah, all those costly $160 5830's on eBay have to go somewhere...

(I saw a 5830 on eBay for $550 -- no joke!  And lots of them as high as $200. Not exactly SELLING at that price, but still!)

After they begged Mom to buy them one, those dumb kids want to start making their $2.30 a day ASAP -- after all, they have a LONG way to go before they're actually making money...

How do you launch the program so that it uses your 2nd or 3rd video card instead of the first?

I never got that part figured out.

After running it for 5 minutes, one of my 3 cards "dropped out" so my hashrate went from 960 down to 560.

The other card didn't seen to come back, either.

Any idea why?

The cards aren't overheating or anything; they run fine with poclbm (and connected to the same pool, too)

What is a lowball offer? Is "lowball" a relative term?

What if the person just has unrealistic expectations of what his product is worth?
"Lowball", to me, is where the prospective buyer lops off 1/2 the price for no reason, just to see if the seller is desperate and/or because he is greedy/cheap.

For example, if I were selling a 23" LCD monitor in like-new condition (which cost $150 new today) for $80, and someone e-mailed me with:
"I'll give you $40"

THAT would be a lowball offer. Offering $40 is uncalled for; $80 is a decent price for a monitor whose only fault is missing the original packaging (it works, looks like new, no scratches on the screen or dead pixels, etc.) Now offering $70 -- that's part of buying/selling used. The buyer wants to feel like he's getting a good deal. So moral of the story: DON'T price things at the lowest price you're willing to accept. Better to say "$450" than "$400 firm". I don't think I've ever bought anything where the price was "firm" -- it makes the seller sound -- well, stubborn!

But what if the seller is charging too much? Maybe he wants $160 for a Sapphire 5830, or he wants $250 for a 5870. A price that wouldn't be profitable for mining *in the present time*.

You run your calculations, come up with a price that you'd see payoff in FIFTY or more days, and make an offer. Is that a lowball?

What about this guy, who had a computer built 3 years ago (Altex is an expensive local PC store -- their stuff is overpriced to begin with):

http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/sys/2468133543.html

If I offered him $250 (more than it's worth, probably!) would that be a "lowball offer"?

This has been sold.

Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI - LIKE NEW

Clean, excellent working condition; a great sound card.
I had to take it out of my machine to turn it into a mining rig.

My loss is your gain!

EDIT: Price lowered to 2.5 BTC or best offer.

Includes free shipping to the continental US.

PM me for details.

As far as references, I've been the owner of the Gregorian chant CD business "www.ChantCd.com" since 2005.
I've sold literally thousands of chant CDs in the past 6 years. I accept credit cards, and have for many years.
(Note: You can't have a merchant account if you're a thief/scammer.)
I have an old eBay account with 100% feedback, but I haven't used it in years.
And you can read my posts here, I suppose

Thanks,

Matthew

The 5830 makes a "whopping" $2.41 a day at the current difficulty, after electricity costs (assuming 8.8 cents a kWh, which is cheaper than most places).

It would take a month, with NO difficulty increases (not gonna happen!) to make $72.30 -- nevermind $200!

You got a 5830 for $72.30?  Good deal!

Because if you got one for $72.30, it would pay for itself in 30 days. (Actually, that calculation assumes no increases in difficulty...which is a bit of a stretch.)

Sell a few BTC and go buy yourself a sense of humor. 

On Mt. Gox, the price of BTC is wildly swinging up and down enough to make you lose your lunch.

Up as high as 17.009

Down as low as 17.002

But when the market moves this much, there's money to be made! 

Seriously, the "market price" chart looks like the EKG of a man who's been shot in the head -- 5 times.

"When to quit mining" -- that's a personal decision.

How much money would you have to earn to make mining worth it?

It's not a silent cash cube that spits out dollar bills every so many hours. It's a noisy, hot PC that has periodic problems (overheating, etc.) and needs regular check-ups/maintenance (cleaning the fans that run 24/7 before your PC is choked with dust)

You need to make sure the miners are always running, etc.

And of course you have to worry about selling the BTC, and turning it into something you can use/spend.

And you ARE taking the full attention (as in, 100%) of a $500 PC running 24/7 to get $X per week. You can't play games on it, for example.

Yes, altogether it's not that big of a deal, but it might be considered "not worth it" if, say, you were only making $10/week. Others might go through all that for $5/week -- it depends on the person.