Here is the other passthrough - to BitVPS

This one really bothered me. I have an email from MtGox support saying that my >$1,000 deposit, after it cleared from Dwolla would have NEVER been returned to me had I not provided my ID, despite the fact I made the transaction before the AML laws went into place. The sheer disregard for their customer's funds deserves to be a mark on their reputation forever. They should be upfront and honest about such things, and they should apologize profusely when they fail to properly communicate. We already know they are being forced to abide by local laws, so it's easy to dismiss the actual implementation, but the fact they wouldn't have even returned the money to my Dwolla account really f'ing bothers me.

The point is tho that I tried. The plan was, we would expose ourself to a reasonable but not overbearing sum of pirate default risk (say, 1000 bitcoins) and then when pirate blew up as everyone knew it would, we would be the heroes and pay out.

And pay we did. We paid over 1,000 bitcoins to one guy, 250 to another, we paid over 2,500 bitcoins to cover YARR, and so forth. We paid out significant sums on options contracts, on hardware and power outages to mining companies, and so on and so forth. Yes, we made some money too. It wasn't all loss. Don't forget, we made money on the premiums too. But that's not the point.

As it turned out, it was the general community that failed CPA. People on the board didn't even want their name associated as members.

You have terminal brain cancer. EVERYTHING lost money. Everything. Unfortunate for you.

My question is.. why? Why me? I came to the conclusion that it is because I set the standard for disclosure with my online spreadsheets, websites and FAQs

Hehe.
Of course, it's all because The Goat has done nothing wrong - right?

So now you have chosen to cover up your ass, instead of getting paid for being his lying bitch?
Sounds like quite some desperation... But I am afraid it won't help you much - you will still end up in jail so better start buying some lubricants...
A pretty boy like you, with such a big experience of being a bitch - it will be a great gift for your new mates

Aug 31 05:50:14 <mircea_popescu>   dude, it's just funnay. you've been trading with yourself to give the appearance of  volume to that turd of yours, and now you accuse me of doing it ? lol.
Aug 31 05:50:24 <mircea_popescu>   im sure it'll stick. what with you being credible and all.
Aug 31 05:50:41 <mircea_popescu>   kakobrekla im actually starting to suspect more than glbse. a bunch added this month, too.
Aug 31 05:51:38 <kakobrekla>   ballpark number?
Aug 31 05:51:39 <BTC-Mining>   mircea, stop deluding yourself... if you don't make an interface like a broker and insist on having a stock exchange backbone and only allow quality companies IPOing, you'll need brokerage platforms like GLBSE
Aug 31 05:51:53 <BTC-Mining>   Which acts like any bank's online brokerage service
Aug 31 05:51:54 <mircea_popescu>   more than 100 less than 1k.
Aug 31 05:52:26 <mircea_popescu>   BTC-Mining i would like better run platforms tho.
Aug 31 05:52:46 <BTC-Mining>   It's a beta... it's not even supposed to be finished yet...
Aug 31 05:52:50 <mircea_popescu>   right.
Aug 31 05:52:52 <BTC-Mining>   People just started using it
Aug 31 05:53:18 <mircea_popescu>   lol. you are aware glbse was scamming investors back in june last year right ?
Aug 31 05:53:46 <Ignatius-otc>   I wasn't aware, links?
Aug 31 05:53:57 <BTC-Mining>   You should show proof indeed.
Aug 31 05:54:28 <mircea_popescu>   Ignatius-otc SIN. LIF.A LIF.B LIF.CX. SMM. DISHWARA. PBJ. UBTC. BitFlowSys. GEM. SLV. BID. USGOLD. BB. SDM.
Aug 31 05:54:31 <mircea_popescu>   forum's your friend.
Aug 31 05:54:43 <mircea_popescu>   add it all up, it comes up to more than the most recent pirate thingee.
Aug 31 05:55:08 <mircea_popescu>   this if we look the other way and pretend to not notice that giga's thing went from 1.5 to .8 in the time it took it to pay ~.2 in dividends.
Aug 31 05:55:13 <BTC-Mining>   Was any of those asset issued by Nefario?
Aug 31 05:55:44 <mircea_popescu>   o dude i dunno, there was this guy that came and stole your money in my house ?! odd dood...
Aug 31 05:56:02 <mircea_popescu>   o, you mean we were all friendly and all ? well... ya, it happens, you know... investin'.
Aug 31 05:56:05 <mircea_popescu>   in da hood.
Aug 31 05:56:15 <mircea_popescu>   free market!
Aug 31 05:56:50 <assbot>   [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 1417 @ 0.00079232 = 1.1227 BTC

Aug 31 05:56:56 <BTC-Mining>   glbse clearly state they're not regulating what's getting on the platform and to investigate the issuer yourself
Aug 31 05:57:17 <mircea_popescu>   and this clearly is a flawed business model.
Aug 31 05:57:27 <BTC-Mining>   Also Gigamining paid over 0.4BTC in dividends so far
Aug 31 05:57:43 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1200 @ 0.0003934 = 0.4721 BTC [-]
Aug 31 05:57:55 <mircea_popescu>   !pl gigamining 1.5
Aug 31 05:57:56 <assbot>   Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
Aug 31 05:57:59 <assbot>   GIGAMINING [1@1.5BTC] paid: 0.41490096 BTC. Last price: 0.82 BTC. Capital gain: -0.68 BTC. Total: -0.26509904 BTC. (-17.7%)
Aug 31 05:58:15 <mircea_popescu>   41 the man says, but you got a point there.
Aug 31 05:58:33 <mircea_popescu>   -17% in 4 months is not so bad, given the alternatives on glbse.
Aug 31 05:58:57 <BTC-Mining>   don't forget that GIGAMINING is not completly fixed, it upgrades
Aug 31 05:59:06 <mircea_popescu>   im just working on past data.
Aug 31 05:59:20 <mircea_popescu>   the future's outside the scope of this conversation.
Aug 31 06:00:38 <mircea_popescu>   .py 0.823 ** 3
Aug 31 06:00:41 <markac>   0.557441767
Aug 31 06:00:43 <assbot>   [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 7600 @ 0.00080907 = 6.1489 BTC

Aug 31 06:01:37 <mircea_popescu>   half yer money in a year, who can argue with that.
Aug 31 06:01:56 <Obsi>   !pl futurefund 0.0001
Aug 31 06:01:56 <assbot>   Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
Aug 31 06:01:59 <assbot>   FUTUREFUND [1@0.0001BTC] paid: 1.625E-5 BTC. Last price: 0.000116 BTC. Capital gain: 1.6E-5 BTC. Total: 0.00003225 BTC. (32.3%)
Aug 31 06:01:59 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39701 @ 0.0003934 = 15.6184 BTC [-]
Aug 31 06:02:00 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34008 @ 0.00039526 = 13.442 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:01 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5519 @ 0.00039584 = 2.1846 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:02 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10372 @ 0.0003959 = 4.1063 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:03 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17400 @ 0.00039624 = 6.8946 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:04 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37900 @ 0.00039662 = 15.0319 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:05 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39000 @ 0.00039689 = 15.4787 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:06 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11800 @ 0.00039712 = 4.686 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:07 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27922 @ 0.0003973 = 11.0934 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:08 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6378 @ 0.00039781 = 2.5372 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:16 <Ignatius-otc>   I fail to see a direct connection showing collusion by GLBSE staff.
Aug 31 06:02:31 <kakobrekla>   when are smpoe div commin out
Aug 31 06:02:35 <Ignatius-otc>   Next time you are looking at one mp, please forward it along.
Aug 31 06:02:39 <mircea_popescu>   tomorrow about this time kakobrekla
Aug 31 06:02:46 <kakobrekla>   k
Aug 31 06:02:49 <mircea_popescu>   Ignatius-otc mkay, lets see here
Aug 31 06:02:51 <BTC-Mining>   yes, yes... and you're completly ignoring why the price is currently low and declare it as a linear loss of value
Aug 31 06:03:01 <Chaang-Noi>   !pl gigamining 1
Aug 31 06:03:02 <assbot>   Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
Aug 31 06:03:15 <Chaang-Noi>   i bought in at 1
Aug 31 06:03:37 <BTC-Mining>   Didn't gigamining IPO at 1 by the way?
Aug 31 06:03:39 <assbot>   GIGAMINING [1@1BTC] paid: 0.41490096 BTC. Last price: 0.82 BTC. Capital gain: -0.18 BTC. Total: 0.23490096 BTC. (23.5%)
Aug 31 06:03:39 *   asa has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
Aug 31 06:03:46 <Chaang-Noi>   yes i bought a huge amount at 1
Aug 31 06:03:52 <BTC-Mining>   Making it a 0.20 loss for 0.40 dividend?
Aug 31 06:04:07 <Chaang-Noi>   yeah i think i did well
Aug 31 06:04:07 <mircea_popescu>   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35775.msg699659#msg699659 you can start there Ignatius-otc
Aug 31 06:04:17 <mircea_popescu>   BTC-Mining why is the price currently low ?
Aug 31 06:04:23 <Chaang-Noi>   i also sold some very near 1.5
Aug 31 06:04:36 *   asa (~asa@31.7.59.226) has joined #bitcoin-assets
Aug 31 06:04:48 <Ignatius-otc>   I would normally just do the work myself mp, but I have already went on a wild goose chase once today. To read about Chaang and his glbse "scandal". Wasn't worth my time and didn't prove Chaang dishonest or doing wrong.
Aug 31 06:04:51 <Ignatius-otc>   ok ty for the link
Aug 31 06:05:20 <BTC-Mining>   The price of bitcoin more than doubled since it IPOed and mining difficulty has been raising accordingly
Aug 31 06:05:23 <mircea_popescu>   Chaang-Noi is just front and center in pretty much any drama, but other than that it's not clearly proven he's dishonest.
Aug 31 06:05:26 <mircea_popescu>   just a little silly at  times.
Aug 31 06:05:43 <BTC-Mining>   Thus price lowered, however Gigamining's rig should get upgraded.
Aug 31 06:05:43 <mircea_popescu>   BTC-Mining and we should discount this for what reason ?
Aug 31 06:05:52 <Chaang-Noi>   means a great deal coming from you mircea
Aug 31 06:05:59 <Chaang-Noi>   i would ahte for anyone to think we were friends
Aug 31 06:06:14 <mircea_popescu>   lol
Aug 31 06:06:17 <Chaang-Noi>   yeah im very happy with giga stock
Aug 31 06:08:11 <BTC-Mining>    <@assbot> GIGAMINING [1@1BTC] paid: 0.41490096 BTC. Last price: 0.82 BTC. Capital gain: -0.18 BTC. Total: 0.23490096 BTC. (23.5%)
Aug 31 06:08:25 <BTC-Mining>   0.41 paid, -0.18 capital gain, net +23.5%
Aug 31 06:08:37 <BTC-Mining>   Gigamining's price at IPO wasn't bad
Aug 31 06:08:42 <mircea_popescu>   as long as we're making scenarios, you could have bought at 1 sold at 1.5
Aug 31 06:08:44 <mircea_popescu>   some people did.
Aug 31 06:08:55 <BTC-Mining>   aye, and some people overpaid the stock
Aug 31 06:08:58 <mircea_popescu>   more's the point, on any stock chart you can make these imaginary paths where you win money no matter what happens.
Aug 31 06:09:09 <mircea_popescu>   with the benefit of knowing the future, that's grea.t
Aug 31 06:09:30 <BTC-Mining>   Indeed, you could, assuming you can foresee the future... unfortunatly you can't
Aug 31 06:10:23 <Chaang-Noi>   im glad im friends with james
Aug 31 06:10:30 <Chaang-Noi>   and let me in on the ipo
Aug 31 06:10:42 <mircea_popescu>   it was public on the forums wasn't it.
Aug 31 06:10:51 *   blazing (~lew@38.105.30.224) has joined #bitcoin-assets
Aug 31 06:11:01 <BTC-Mining>   hmm...
Aug 31 06:11:59 <mircea_popescu>   ;;ticker
Aug 31 06:12:00 <gribble>   Best bid: 10.78001, Best ask: 10.79, Bid-ask spread: 0.00999, Last trade: 10.78, 24 hour volume: 29529, 24 hour low: 10.6, 24 hour high: 10.907
Aug 31 06:18:16 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [BITBOND] 2 @ 0.4693 = 0.9386 BTC [-]
Aug 31 06:19:50 <Ignatius-otc>   mircea_popescu: what measures are in place on mpex to prevent a lif.* like asset from defaulting in the way the thread you linked to me describes?
Aug 31 06:20:31 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [V.HRL] 1 @ 1 BTC
Aug 31 06:20:39 <Ignatius-otc>   does mpex have investment funds? if so, when they are poorly managed and lose most/all btc...how would this play out any differently if the exchange were mpex instead of glbse
Aug 31 06:20:40 <Chaang-Noi>   there is not money traded on mpex so nothing can be lost
Aug 31 06:20:42 <mircea_popescu>   i don't allow random people to list.
Aug 31 06:20:50 <mircea_popescu>   Chaang-Noi now why do you insist to lie on the matter ?
Aug 31 06:21:13 <Chaang-Noi>   not a lie, but an exageration to absurdity
Aug 31 06:21:20 <Chaang-Noi>   clearly a few btc is on your exchange
Aug 31 06:21:22 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [BFLS] 2 @ 1.09 = 2.18 BTC [-]
Aug 31 06:21:24 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [BFLS] 1 @ 1.099 BTC

Aug 31 06:21:29 <mircea_popescu>   but you are aware that glbse did something like 20% of the satoshi dice volume, right ?
Aug 31 06:21:35 <Chaang-Noi>   so yes you can be scammed too
Aug 31 06:21:37 <mircea_popescu>   mostly because... it has no investors.
Aug 31 06:21:43 <mircea_popescu>   of course i can be scammed  too.
Aug 31 06:21:59 <mircea_popescu>   the difference is that i haven't been.
Aug 31 06:22:04 <Chaang-Noi>   glbse took 20% of the volume of a stock on your exchange? oh lol
Aug 31 06:22:07 <mircea_popescu>   just like any wife could be a whore. she has the equipment.
Aug 31 06:22:12 <Ignatius-otc>   is there an actual third party blockchain like way to verify any of your volume claims mp?
Aug 31 06:22:12 <mircea_popescu>   the ideea is that some are and some aren't.
Aug 31 06:22:16 <Chaang-Noi>   thats pretty funny stat
Aug 31 06:22:24 <mircea_popescu>   Ignatius-otc you could try twitter i guess ?
Aug 31 06:22:40 <Ignatius-otc>   twitter? as proof of volume? so...the same as glbse?
Aug 31 06:22:44 <Chaang-Noi>   why would 20% not wnt to use your exchange and pick glbse over it? oh wiat, never mind
Aug 31 06:22:54 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 1 @ 0.45 BTC

Aug 31 06:22:56 <mircea_popescu>   Chaang-Noi because they don't have 20 btc, mostly.
Aug 31 06:23:06 <mircea_popescu>   Ignatius-otc how would you construct proof of volume ?
Aug 31 06:23:08 <mircea_popescu>   in an ideal world ?
Aug 31 06:23:21 <Ignatius-otc>   trusted third party verification
Aug 31 06:23:33 <mircea_popescu>   there's not that many third parties that i trust.
Aug 31 06:23:37 <Ignatius-otc>   just generally aksing though, your statements seem like they could alle asily apply to any exchange,even yours
Aug 31 06:23:43 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43000 @ 0.00039724 = 17.0813 BTC [-]
Aug 31 06:23:47 <mircea_popescu>   which specifically ?
Aug 31 06:23:48 <Ignatius-otc>   apply easily*
Aug 31 06:24:05 <Ignatius-otc>   mainly the collusion thing is what got me to chime in and the fun here
Aug 31 06:24:12 <mircea_popescu>   a. well here's the thing :
Aug 31 06:24:17 <Ignatius-otc>   i still havent seen anything suggesting glbse is in collusion with defaulting assets
Aug 31 06:24:42 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [FDBF] 1 @ 0.14 BTC [-]
Aug 31 06:25:19 <mircea_popescu>   you got neighbourhood A, where there never was a violent crime. you got neighbourhood B, where about half the citizens routinely get hauled off to prison on various violent charges.
Aug 31 06:25:25 <mircea_popescu>   now... where do you make your home ?
Aug 31 06:25:45 <mircea_popescu>   sure, in principle crime is crime, it can happen anywhere, innocent till proven guilty and all that.
Aug 31 06:25:49 <mircea_popescu>   but, where do you make your home ?
Aug 31 06:25:56 <Ignatius-otc>   that wasn't my concern
Aug 31 06:26:03 <mircea_popescu>   well that was the extent of my argument.
Aug 31 06:26:13 <Ignatius-otc>   my concern is when you alluded multiple times that glbse staff are/were involved in scams
Aug 31 06:26:19 <mircea_popescu>   shit happens too many times it's either incompetence or collusion.
Aug 31 06:26:27 <BTC-Mining>   This isn't about making your home tho, it's about making money
Aug 31 06:26:49 <mircea_popescu>   BTC-Mining no, the making money part has been longresolved. anyone with any capital and any sense goes wherwe the volume is.
Aug 31 06:26:57 <mircea_popescu>   we're on to discussing the irrational part, of homemaking.
Aug 31 06:27:03 <BTC-Mining>   and although GLBSE had many scam/default, when chosen correctly, the assets pay a lot more.
Aug 31 06:27:03 <mircea_popescu>   that being the last argument left, really.
Aug 31 06:27:17 <mircea_popescu>   BTC-Mining do you know which is the highest yield asset on glbse ?
Aug 31 06:27:29 <BTC-Mining>   So people only go where the volume is eh? Guess we should all strictly invest in government bonds then
Aug 31 06:27:41 <BTC-Mining>   The highest were pirate's passthrough
Aug 31 06:27:44 <mircea_popescu>   nope
Aug 31 06:27:46 <mircea_popescu>   try again ?
Aug 31 06:28:08 <BTC-Mining>   hmm... OBSI.HRPT currently
Aug 31 06:28:11 <mircea_popescu>   mnope
Aug 31 06:28:17 <mircea_popescu>   want a third or are you bored ?
Aug 31 06:28:27 <BTC-Mining>   Bored
Aug 31 06:28:28 *   TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
Aug 31 06:28:33 *   [7] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) has joined #bitcoin-assets
Aug 31 06:28:34 <mircea_popescu>   !pl mpoe.etf 0.1
Aug 31 06:28:34 <assbot>   Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
Aug 31 06:28:52 <mircea_popescu>   gee they take this beta thing seriously.
Aug 31 06:28:52 <assbot>   MPOE.ETF [1@0.1BTC] paid: 0.0104835 BTC. Last price: 1.3 BTC. Capital gain: 1.2 BTC. Total: 1.2104835 BTC. (1210.5%)
Aug 31 06:29:11 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [DMC] 1 @ 0.0622 BTC [-]
Aug 31 06:29:23 <Ignatius-otc>   To be clear I personally am not arguing that any glbse asset is a sound investment, I just want to make sure the exchange itself is reputable.
Aug 31 06:29:32 <mircea_popescu>   Ignatius-otc how would you do that ?
Aug 31 06:29:59 <Ignatius-otc>   similar to feedback systems all voer the internet is how I personally went about it
Aug 31 06:30:04 <mircea_popescu>   i regard it as disreputable. i might just be biased. some people regard it as reputable. course they don't tend to disclose their ownership interest in it.
Aug 31 06:30:07 <mircea_popescu>   what can you do ?
Aug 31 06:30:24 <Ignatius-otc>   and in doing so, found absolutely no evidence glbse is up to no good, same for chaang, yet I watch you sit here and bash the fk out of these things pretty frequently...

While no proof or even evidence of scamming, I did a quick back-of-envelope calculation to get an idea of the size of this unfolding trainwreck. Im ignoring YARR here, I havent read up on that yet.

IPO revenue:

CPA  46423 shares x 0.1 = 4642
BMF 5147 shares (x1)
Nyan.A  1606 bonds (x1)
Nyan.B  2263 bonds (x1)
Nyan.C 3565 bonds (x1)

Total collected from investors: 17,223 BTC

How much value of that is left?
Paid out in dividends
CPA  178
BMF 418
Nyan.A  112
Nyan.B  280
Nyan.C  302

Total dividends: 1,290

If we unrealistically assume all usagi's assets can actually be sold at current highest bids and multiply that by oustanding shares/bonds, I get the following remaining  market cap:

CPA  1666
BMF 2511
Nyan.A  959
Nyan.B  1543
Nyan.C  399

Total market cap: 7,078

Total loss = 17,223 -(1,290+7,078) = 8,855 BTC.

Thats how much your "financial friend for life" has lost for its investors so far at the very minimum.

My first thought is, yes, lets get it implemented, any thoughts from the community?

It would not be a pain in the ass if -in case of breach of the contract- the asset get forcibly liquidated using the fund to indemnify (partially) the investors. It could be seen like an insurance, and it may make sense if the asset issuer contribute significantly to it (in advance, not just with the funds raised from investors).

edit: honest asset issuers would be motivated to fund even a 100% insurance fund, since that money remains their -even if locked for a period- until they behave honestly.

Excellent advice, and I don't think it sounded that dick-ish.

This is a great idea.  I too suspect that the GLBSE has overall been a huge transfer of wealth from investors to asset issuers and scammers.

This is a good explanation.  Me willing to sell PUT options is only a bet that the share price is currently undervalued, and it's a bet I would be making with my own funds.  The only effect it should have on shareholders, is to inspire confidence that I'm willing to bet the share price will go up.

I've suggested this many times to Nefario.  It could be another level of verification (and the only one that would actually matter in my eyes).
"Bonded for X BTC against default" would go a long way in providing a bottom for shares and instilling confidence in GLBSE assets.

This is really worth of another thread. It could be entirely voluntary and fractional (e.g. cover an x% of the value of the total shares issued).
With such guarantee (to be managed by GLBSE in case of a proven breach of the contract) many (if not all) investors would be happy to accept a much lower interest, so it would be a positive-sum game since everybody would gain something.

edit: but it is to be solved what happens when someone keeps issuing more and more shares, even after he already defaulted like in this case.

In the event of liquidation or breach of this Agreement they solemnly promise and warrant to repay all investors holding shares at this minimum value.

That's why I asked about time-zone - as one pretty obvious interpretation of Mirceau's irc chat was that he was intentionally quoting from this thread, then his next line was commenting (in a joky fashion) that you were stealing his idea.

I don't take anything usagi says at face value.  I was also accused by it of being an account made on mirceau's behalf in early august this year.  Despite the FACT that my account wasn't even created this year - let alone in the week that it alleged.

Far too bad conditions for the lender for my taste in the sample contract, good luck in finding someone else to borrow you shares for shorting/whatever.

Im amazed this has managed to make 100btc

It seems the easiest way to get bitcoins out of people is ru a ponzi scheme, and thats a sad realisation 

The forum shouldn't be about trading, these tags are useless IMO.

If they paid 64000x for every zero, 31981.573x for every 1, etc. using the current payouts, the expected return per 1 BTC bet would be 9.3 BTC.

So to make a game with a small positive (1.9%) expectation for the house, but with the same proportions of the payouts, we need to scale the current multipliers back by 9.3 / 0.981.  I left the 'losing' return at 0.005, and slightly adjusted the 3rd decimal place of the payouts to make it work.  Then we get:


Which gives pretty much the correct house edge:


Would people be willing to play a game where you need to roll less than 6000 to 'win'?  It means that less than one ticket in ten is a winning ticket.