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481  Other / Off-topic / Re: SOLAR ENERGY ? on: July 25, 2014, 03:07:56 PM
I thought you might find this December 2013 article interesting: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9244836/Solar_power_installation_costs_fall_through_the_floor

Particularly this part: "The cost of installing photovoltaic solar arrays has dropped to $3 per watt of electricity they produce - about the same as coal-powered plants cost to build ..."

So it sounds like the cost is quickly becoming less of a factor.

Well that is pretty darn interesting, I didn't know that!

If it keeps going like that it would be great, although I live in a crappy part of the states where I don't know if we could successfully use it because we don't get enough sun!  Stupid Minnesota!
The costs are getting much lower per year, I'm not sure what everyone is waiting for.
I don't think anyone is waiting around.  From that article: "As a whole, the U.S. installed 4.3GW of PV solar arrays this year, a 27% increase over 2012."  A 27% increase is a lot.  It takes time to ramp up manufacturing.  You can't just increase solar cell production by 100x in a year.  Besides, there's only so much demand.  It's not cost-effective (yet?) to replace existing power plants that work with solar plants, so demand is mostly going to come from the need for more electricity and from the need to replace old power plants that have reached the end of their useful life.  It also takes a lot of land area and of course the right climate to build a solar plant, so you can't just do it anywhere.
482  Other / Off-topic / Re: SOLAR ENERGY ? on: July 25, 2014, 02:56:23 PM
I thought you might find this December 2013 article interesting: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9244836/Solar_power_installation_costs_fall_through_the_floor

Particularly this part: "The cost of installing photovoltaic solar arrays has dropped to $3 per watt of electricity they produce - about the same as coal-powered plants cost to build ..."

So it sounds like the cost is quickly becoming less of a factor.

Well that is pretty darn interesting, I didn't know that!

If it keeps going like that it would be great, although I live in a crappy part of the states where I don't know if we could successfully use it because we don't get enough sun!  Stupid Minnesota!

Oh, man, how can you bash Minnesota like that!  I love the north woods! Smiley  But I don't live there, so it's a treat to go for me. Wink

Anyway, there are a lot of places, of course, where solar is not as cost-effective.  You really need dry, desert areas.  The southwest part of the US would likely be the best place in the country.
483  Economy / Speculation / Re: Dafuq is happening with btc price on: July 25, 2014, 02:48:14 PM
Yay for me, long time listener, first time caller. . I've been reading this forum for a long time now and I am long on BTC and have invested a signifiant proportion of my limited wealth. I'm currently torn as to weather to invest the lot and sell bits and pieces when I need cash. This would ensure that I'm well placed for the "moon" but hopefully can quickly change my position if things look seriously grim.
Well, it's your call, of course, but as with any risky investment, make sure you don't invest more than you can lose.  Markets are forward-looking, so if it were a guarantee that the price of bitcoin were going to be thousands of dollars or more, it would already be there.  And also consider how you would feel if the price starts dropping significantly.  Make sure you have the stomach to handle it if you have all of your wealth invested and the price drops $200.  And be sure you don't fall into the trap of thinking that you'll just sell if it drops $100.  Emotions start to kick in and you start to hope it will recover instead of being willing to admit that you were wrong and take a loss.
484  Economy / Economics / Re: Have you started spending rather than hoarding your bitcoins? on: July 25, 2014, 01:10:15 AM
Seems to me that the next key step for bitcoin is true mass adoption. The day my dad uses it to buy something is the day I know we've made it.

Problem is if everyone is holding rather than spending, I am not sure how we ever get there. I know that there are many people spending, but the main game is still buy and hold expecting profits through price appreciation. My question is is this changing now that the price feels like it is settling down a bit? Does anyone have the stats?

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The stats in this article only go through 2013, but I think this is the kind of thing you're looking for:

http://www.coindesk.com/mit-report-bitcoin-more-likely-spent-hoarded/

In 2013, the vast majority of bitcoins were spent within 24 hours of being bought.  If the pattern in that article has held, then there isn't much hoarding of purchased bitcoins going on.  Of course there are also mined coins...
485  Other / Off-topic / Re: Do you really earn more money because you went to college? on: July 25, 2014, 12:55:21 AM
Simple answer is no.

Your just taking a chance like everyone else.

That's not the case. Not everyone has the same intelligence or ambition. Some will be more successful than others given a college education.

You wont be successful if majority took the same route. I say chance like a lotto ticket because its not a guarantee to a job.

But you`ll have to pay $20k thats for sure certain. Keep in mind, that you cant or erase for file a chapter 7 bankcruptcy on student loans, so people planning not to pay back good luck with that.

And by the time you made your money in a white collar job, your not really enjoying esp when your old as hell.

You mind as well take that route though, if you dont have a plan to make some real money. People settle for whatever, some people settle for $30,000 per month its up to the person.

What does old have to do with anything? 

The guys have the money but the reason they don't get to enjoy their money is because 99% of them are married to women and the women are the ones who get to enjoy the money.  A lot of white collar professionals out there with money-spending wives and four kids who would be happier if they had remained a bachelor and spent their money on cars, boats and hot escorts.


That's a sad outlook on life.  I would have more money if I didn't have a family, but there's no way I'd make that trade.  What's the point in having a lot of money if you don't have someone to share it with?
486  Economy / Speculation / Re: My theory is proving true once again on: July 25, 2014, 12:44:24 AM
Chinesse bagholders who bought around 200-300 plus the merchants dumping definetely is a short term sell pressure.
That's possible, but you don't know that for sure.  I doubt that merchants would dump a bunch of coins all at the same time.  I would think that they'd convert them as soon as they get them to avoid potential loss.  It's also possible that a whale just decided to dump a bunch of BTC, whether to cash some in or push the market down or whatever.
487  Economy / Speculation / Re: Another dump to $550 can be expected in 48hours on: July 25, 2014, 12:35:34 AM
A troll quoting another troll, classic.   Roll Eyes

Hehe, best comment so far, i like those apocaliptic prophesies. A dump to 550 can be true but downtrend from 1200 to 0 really? Cheesy
I, too, am hoping that the price continues upward.  But you can't completely discount the possibility that we're headed to 0 (or at least close to it).  Purely from a trading perspective, we're not.  But there's always the possibility of unexpected bad events that could lead to things like the banning of bitcoin worldwide.
488  Economy / Speculation / Re: Dafuq is happening with btc price on: July 25, 2014, 12:18:06 AM
The price is really boring these days. Hovering around the 600-700 mark and just slowly falling. I want some excitement!
Oh, be careful what you wish for.  You just might get it. Wink

If we can't hold the $600 level, it will likely get quite exciting.
489  Economy / Speculation / Re: Is 2014 going to be the WORST EVER year for Bitcoin in terms of valuation? on: July 24, 2014, 11:56:03 PM
even if we get a bull-run towards $1,500, the gains would be the worst ever.. at least year-to-year. at least in terms of price.

but so far we've seen a lot of stability and merchant adoption rate.
Hopefully the stability and adoption will provide a platform for future increases, even if they're smaller.  Stability leads to trust, and bitcoin needs more trust....or an ETF. Smiley
490  Economy / Speculation / Re: My theory is proving true once again on: July 24, 2014, 11:44:15 PM
Well, if you actually know what you're doing, you don't lose. People around here always keep saying that daytrading is stupid and you'll always lose. Other add that only big whales win, and everyone else gets ripped off. I believe there are people who know what they're doing and are successful by doing it!

Trading is a game where 95% of the people loses and 5% of the people win big. Same thing on wallstreet and in Bitcoinland. The real challenge is knowing whether you are the 95% or the 5% before you invest your time and money into trading.

There's an additional catch in Bitcoin land, even when you win in terms of fiat, you could still lose if you hold the fiat, due to Bitcoin appreciation.

Buy and Hold has been the proven successful strategy in Bitcoinland.
The best way to win at day trading is to be the whale that moves the market.  That way you take out the guesswork.  The one danger, of course, is if there's an even bigger whale out there that gobbles you up.
491  Economy / Speculation / Re: Another dump to $550 can be expected in 48hours on: July 24, 2014, 11:33:18 PM
He's probably right. All we need is one nice piece of FUD and we'll see the price plummet. The mythical date of July 24 has come and will soon go, and we're still struggling to stay at 50% of the all time high. It looks like we could be facing months of the same old bearshit.
I hate to agree, but this is probably correct.  There's an awful lot of selling pressure above, and the price seems kind of fragile right now, especially with a couple shorter term technical supports being breached.

Edit: if it can't hold on to $600, then $550 is the next major support, so it would probably end up there pretty quickly.
492  Economy / Economics / Re: Global Financial Crisis scenarios on: July 24, 2014, 11:24:34 PM
do you think we`ll see something again like 2008? Its been 6 years already ever since that moment.
Will we have more recessions, financial crises, and market crashes?  Of course.  That happens every several years.  Will we have one that's as severe or worse than 2008?  Almost certainly.  Will the next one be that bad?  I really don't know, but I think it's possible.  Reserve banks are still overextended, interest rates are still ridiculously low in some countries, and some economies still aren't doing all that well.  During the next crisis, governments and reserve banks may not have the wiggle room they did in 2008.
493  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] SpartanCoin - Cryptocoin for the competitive world. on: July 24, 2014, 09:45:38 PM
In the Mintpal voting, does anyone know what happened to COOL?  They were in 3rd place with over 18k votes on July 19th.  Now they're in 50th place with a little over 4k votes.  Were they cheating or something?  In any case, great for us. Cool  That's a good reason to keep voting.  Other coins may get knocked down for whatever reason.

I would say bots were at work. Alot of coins got dropped down the voting list when botting started. More than likely they auto voted to where they were!

!!KEEP VOTING SPARTANS WE WILL BREACH MINTPAL'S RANKS!!

AROO!
That could be, but I can't imagine that making a bot to do those jigsaw puzzle confirmations would be easy.
494  Economy / Economics / Re: Either/Or on: July 24, 2014, 09:37:28 PM
Both spending and investing help grow the economy, but investing helps more.
How do you figure that investing helps the economy more than spending?  I agree that investment money is very important, but you only need so much of it, which is dependent on how much demand there is for it.  Let's say you have to figure out where to get $100B in extra tax money.  If you take it from the rich, then the poor and middle class get to keep $100B, most of which will be spent soon thereafter, which drives the economy.  If you take it from the poor and middle class, then the rich get to keep that $100B.  They already have plenty of money, so most of that goes into the stock market and real estate.  That increases stock prices, which mostly helps the rich get richer, and it increases real estate prices, which makes it even harder for the poor and middle class to afford it (e.g., houses).

Your examples of spending money on stocks or on real estate are not great because they are really no different from spending money on cars or on groceries. Besides, giving out money to spend on cars and groceries drives up those prices just as much as stocks and real estate.

Having more money to spend on cars and groceries doesn't necessarily mean prices will go up over the longer term (although they may in the short term).  Yes, one way for a market to balance when demand increases is for prices to increase (short-term effect).  But the other way for it to balance is to increase supply (long-term effect).  If demand steadily increases, that drives industry expansion and increased production, which creates more jobs and economic growth.

So you're right that real estate may not be the best example because supply will eventually respond to demand.  However, such rebalancing happens much slower in real estate that most other industries.

So, let's talk about core investing, giving money to people to build or create things. You know, companies, infrastructure, houses, farms, etc. -- the stuff that creates jobs and increases everyone's standard of living. The economy grows through production, not consumption. Investment increases production.

I agree that investment increases production, but over the long term, increased production means nothing without increased consumption.

I think we're basically getting into the classical debate here between supply-side and demand-side economics.  First, let me say that I think the ideal situation is when the two are balanced.  If demand greatly outweighs supply or vice-versa, you have all kinds of problems.  I think it's best if production proactively keeps up with anticipated future demand so that you get efficient markets with few price fluctuations.

That said, I prefer demand-side to supply-side because, IMO, focusing on increasing demand before supply leads to a more guaranteed and predictable rate of growth.  The drawback is that it can lead to higher prices.

My basic argument here is that you can increase production all you want, but if typical consumers don't have money to buy your products because it was taken away by taxes, then it makes no difference.  I understand that the idea behind what you're saying is that investing money in, say, factories will create more jobs, thus putting more money in the hands of consumers, which will drive demand.  In theory, that sounds good.  But who, other than venture capitalists, invests in more factories when the demand doesn't exist yet, and they're unsure if or when it will?  Now, if the economy is chugging along and there are clear indications of increasing demand, then sure--that would help to achieve the ideal balance I was talking about before.  But if it's not, why would you increase supply?

Reading through what I've written, I realized that my take on things is probably very colored by the 2008-09 financial crisis.  Most of what I said is based on unhealthy, uncertain economic times when you don't know when demand is going to increase again.
495  Other / Off-topic / Re: Do you really earn more money because you went to college? on: July 24, 2014, 08:26:09 PM
there are just some situtions when people left the college and even so earnt a lot of money, but the is more successful people who dedicate a lot of years to study. Study hard and you will get the results, the problem is the education system, in USA the college is the more expesive on earth, but why the ''richest'' country on heart cannot do something about it??? just leae the young people without giving the chance to have decent college studies, but in other case Sweden the tuition is free, because they know the valuable recourse on a country are the people and the students.
How does Sweden determine who goes to college and who doesn't?  Can anyone go who wants to, or is it very selective?

In the US, it's a supply and demand problem.  Demand for a college education keeps increasing, and the student loans business and government enable it by approving a lot of loans that perhaps they shouldn't approve.  It seems like a lot of times, more emphasis is placed on getting a college education than on getting a good or worthwhile college education.
496  Economy / Economics / Re: Either/Or on: July 24, 2014, 07:59:12 PM
All income should be taxed at the same rate. i say that knowing it would increase my own taxes...but it is just fair.
I disagree.  I think everyone should be taxed something, but the more you make, the higher your tax rate should be.  I think a progressive system is both fair and better economically.  The rich benefit more from a capitalistic society than the poor, so it seems fair for them to contribute more to it in taxes.

I agree with that view, but, the rest of what you wrote is flawed.

...  Additionally, taking more money from the poor and middle class hurts the economy.  They spend most or all of what they make.  Whereas taking more money from the rich just decreases the amount that they can invest in stocks, real estate, etc.

Both spending and investing help grow the economy, but investing helps more.
How do you figure that investing helps the economy more than spending?  I agree that investment money is very important, but you only need so much of it, which is dependent on how much demand there is for it.  Let's say you have to figure out where to get $100B in extra tax money.  If you take it from the rich, then the poor and middle class get to keep $100B, most of which will be spent soon thereafter, which drives the economy.  If you take it from the poor and middle class, then the rich get to keep that $100B.  They already have plenty of money, so most of that goes into the stock market and real estate.  That increases stock prices, which mostly helps the rich get richer, and it increases real estate prices, which makes it even harder for the poor and middle class to afford it (e.g., houses).
497  Economy / Economics / Re: Global Financial Crisis scenarios on: July 24, 2014, 07:27:33 PM
Something else to consider about those "irretrievable" coins: they may not be permanently irretrievable.  As technology progresses, it may eventually become feasible to brute force the keys in a reasonable amount of time (although I'm not exactly sure how this would work, so I could be wrong).
It's not and never will be. It's not a matter of technology. There is simply not enough energy in this solar system to brute force private keys, even in theory.

I wonder how many times humanity has claimed the impossible only to be surprised by a very rude awakening.

Let's modify that to, "Based upon our current understanding, we believe this will never happen."

Brute forcing *does* seem overwhelmingly infeasible (but NOT impossible as there is a known chance of a collision, and though this likelihood is unfathomably small, it's still there).  But, there may be alternative methods to brute forcing we haven't considered.  In *theory* an advanced quantum computer would contain all possible private key solutions -- an analogy of how such an advanced computer can be imagined is to think of a library that contains all books that ever have *and* that ever will be written, and that there simply needs to be a method to find the book you're looking for.  Accordingly, it's not so much about solving for the correct answer, but rather removing everything that's unnecessary to leave only the correct answer.  Take this with a grain a salt; I'm by no means an expert on the subject.
The Infinite Library does not exist, and quantum computers only exist in sci-fi novels. Let's discuss this when we have a working model.
Actually, small quantum computers do exist.  I don't know much about the details, but the company D-Wave claimed they did an 84-qbit (quantum bit) computation in 2012.  See wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_quantum_computing#2012
498  Economy / Economics / Re: Either/Or on: July 24, 2014, 05:14:13 PM
All income should be taxed at the same rate. i say that knowing it would increase my own taxes...but it is just fair.
I disagree.  I think everyone should be taxed something, but the more you make, the higher your tax rate should be.  I think a progressive system is both fair and better economically.  The rich benefit more from a capitalistic society than the poor, so it seems fair for them to contribute more to it in taxes.  Additionally, taking more money from the poor and middle class hurts the economy.  They spend most or all of what they make.  Whereas taking more money from the rich just decreases the amount that they can invest in stocks, real estate, etc.

Of course the flip side is that tax rates should be reasonable, and the government should spend money wisely.
499  Economy / Economics / Re: Can bitcoin survive without the Internet? on: July 24, 2014, 04:56:03 PM
The problem is not switching off internet, it is keeping it switched off not locally but globally.

You could have an AM radio signal broadcasting, globally, transactions and the blockchain.
You could have satellite broadcasting the transactions and the blockchain
You could have the DVB-T/S/C broadcasting transactions and the blockchain.
You could have wi-fi and wired ethernet networks to broadcast transactions and the blockchain.
You could have analog modems do it.
Yes, most of these things could be used (although it would depend on why the internet is down; some things that would shut down the internet would shut down some of these things, too), but would they be?  Plus, most of these things don't interface easily with computers, so trying to organize one of these things, especially without the internet, would be difficult to impossible.
500  Other / Off-topic / Re: Do you really earn more money because you went to college? on: July 24, 2014, 03:38:10 PM
This doesn't have to be true.  If you go to one of your state's public universities, you'll probably pay no more than half of that for tuition.  If you need to cut costs further, you could go to a community college for the first two years and then transfer.  Community college shouldn't cost you more than a few thousand a year for tuition.

It is slightly cheaper if you go to a state college in your state, but you will still rack up easily 50k in just tuition, and then top that with books, room and food  you probably will hit 75k....

That is likely true.

School is a sick sick idea of buying a piece of paper for a lot of money, then getting a job with that piece of paper so you can pay off the loans in which you took to acquire that piece of paper...stupid cycle!

True for some fields, but necessary for others.  Although I'm also biased because I got my degrees over a decade ago when prices were a lot cheaper.  I was able to get a BS for around $40k for everything, including books and R&B.
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