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521  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 09:13:27 PM
I've not avoided anything.  I support democracy and a state having a monopoly of violence.  In the absence of that, there is no concept of murder. 
So, what you're actually saying is that the only thing stopping you from killing me is the words on a piece of paper, "Murder is illegal," and if it weren't for that, you'd go on a killing spree?
522  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 09:05:18 PM
Would you please stop avoiding the questions I ask you? I'm still waiting on an answer to whether or not you would continue to advocate and support a violent monopoly.
And on how, exactly, removing the government's monopoly on law enforcement would make murder legal.
523  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: May 20, 2013, 09:02:11 PM
Disgruntled sovereign individuals getting together and forming things called 'communities' and organisational bodies called 'governments', which sometimes collectively decide to do things for the "greater good" (never thought I'd have to use that horrible term, but there you have it) even though some individuals may suffer a personal loss....
Oh, such a shame... You had me right up until "greater good." People can group. People can collectively decide things. But if they force their decision on even one dissenter, that's tyranny.
You and your "objective morality" again...

When the majority wants something but Myrkul opposes and wants something different, that's tyranny... Sure, why not. But who's the tyrant?
They're welcome to do whatever they want. Among themselves.

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It all seems so strange considering that Capitalism is supposedly more efficient and all-round superior to 'coercion'. If societies with 'coercive' governments were less efficient than capitalist societies, surely they would have died out long ago due to evolution? How come they haven't?
AnCap was only first put together as a full philosophy about a hundred years or so ago. Look how long democracy took to get going. You're seeing the first stages of the out-competition right now. And you're resisting it. How does it feel to be the dude telling the man in an automobile to get a horse?
You got me. How does it feel to be telling "the Man" to get a horse?
Actually, I'm the one in the car. You can keep your horse.
524  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 08:57:48 PM
So you tell me that you will respond with violence if I support democracy and you deny that's a threat.  And then you say that threatening to strangle me is not a threat to kill Huh

Again, think before you post. 
Did I say I would strangle you?
No... I didn't.

And I would advise that you think before you post. If someone tells you that they paid a man to mug you, and kill you if you resist, what would you do?

Violently removing them from your presence would be the nicest thing, I would think. (Of course, you'll probably call someone to do it, since you prefer to do your violence by proxy.)
525  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 08:47:24 PM
I didn't.  "should be no government" is a moral position like "should be no homosexuals."  There is a government right now, its not going away and the important debate is how to make it as good as possible.  
Take away it's monopoly.
So you can legally kill me?  No thanks - I'll pass.
How would removing the government monopoly on law enforcement allow me to legally kill you if you don't threaten me with violence?

Unless you would? Would you continue to try and set up a monopoly on violence?

Its illegal for you to kill me now and you have threatened to do so.  Are you trying to say that you'd not do it if it was legal to kill me? 

Think before you post please.
I haven't threatened to kill you. I have said that I will respond with violence if you threaten me (by advocating that the government should forcibly extract payment from me and kidnap or kill me if I resist) in my presence. I would advise against threatening people.

And I'm still waiting on an answer to whether or not you would continue to advocate and support a violent monopoly.
And on how, exactly, removing the government's monopoly on law enforcement would make murder legal.
526  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 08:31:01 PM
I didn't.  "should be no government" is a moral position like "should be no homosexuals."  There is a government right now, its not going away and the important debate is how to make it as good as possible.  
Take away it's monopoly.
So you can legally kill me?  No thanks - I'll pass.
How would removing the government monopoly on law enforcement allow me to legally kill you if you don't threaten me with violence?

Unless you would? Would you continue to try and set up a monopoly on violence?
527  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: May 20, 2013, 08:27:10 PM
Disgruntled sovereign individuals getting together and forming things called 'communities' and organisational bodies called 'governments', which sometimes collectively decide to do things for the "greater good" (never thought I'd have to use that horrible term, but there you have it) even though some individuals may suffer a personal loss....
Oh, such a shame... You had me right up until "greater good." People can group. People can collectively decide things. But if they force their decision on even one dissenter, that's tyranny.

It all seems so strange considering that Capitalism is supposedly more efficient and all-round superior to 'coercion'. If societies with 'coercive' governments were less efficient than capitalist societies, surely they would have died out long ago due to evolution? How come they haven't?
AnCap was only first put together as a full philosophy about a hundred years or so ago. Look how long democracy took to get going. You're seeing the first stages of the out-competition right now. And you're resisting it. How does it feel to be the dude telling the man in an automobile to get a horse?
528  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 08:19:08 PM
I didn't.  "should be no government" is a moral position like "should be no homosexuals."  There is a government right now, its not going away and the important debate is how to make it as good as possible. 
Take away it's monopoly.
529  Economy / Economics / Re: Is it true that the Fed is privately owned on: May 20, 2013, 08:16:39 PM
Hmm, if you put it like that I guess I do hold some communist views. I do think capital should be privately owned though, so I'm far from a communist. I think a balance of power is probably best.

Capital property: liberal (individual ownership)
Property of land: social (public ownership)
Intellectual property: anarchy (information should be free)
I have bad news for you. Land is "capital property."

1. Ok. Lets for a second pretend I think this is a good and realistic idea. How are we gonna decide who gets to have the North Sea. I'd like to have it? Can I just claim it? I call North Sea! Just like that?
Have you ever fished the north sea?
First appropriation requires use. Can't just "call" it.
2. So apparently it's more profitable to cut that shit down, right? Apparently cutting it down will make you more money than leaving it in tact! Why else would anyone want to bribe a politician? They're not gonna bribe him to do something that will lose them money? It's clearly more profitable for any individual to cut down the rainforrest, while it is potentially devastating for humanity. Be honest for a second: how is this NOT a tradegy of the commons?
Oh, I agree with you that it is. But if you owned a large portion of a rainforest, would you sell it cheaply, or get as much as you could for it? And if your neighbors did the same, would it still be profitable to cut it all down?
3. Ok lets "hypothetically" presume for a second that it is indeed the burning of fossil fuels that ruins the environment. Would that mean it qualifies as a tragedy of the commons, and thus requires regulation?
The answer to the tragedy of the commons is not regulations. The answer to the tragedy of the commons is to internalize the externalities. By private ownership.

Yes, but anybody can choose to not use bitcoin, or make another cryptocurrency. Plus, nobody just claimed bitcoin. People put actual time and effort in making them. That's the difference.
Do you think homesteading is as simple as saying "that's mine," or drawing a line on a map? No, that's how governments claim land. A homesteader works his land, or at the very least marks it out somehow. To say nothing of actually getting there, which can be a lot of work, as well.

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Let me explain. If land is owned by nobody, anyone can come and take it at any time. I could justifiably force you off your land. I'd say that's "strife." If land is owned by "everybody" and some organization is going to come around and collect rent, they'll have to force me to pay, because I won't want to. That also qualifies as "strife." On the other hand, if someone wants to buy my land, they need only offer me enough money to convince me to sell it. Voluntarily. Peacefully.

You must see what is wrong with that first sentence yourself. For the rest: the peace you speak of is like the peace slave-owners liked to have. There might not be any fighting but there's not exactly freedom either.
So, you own your mother? And your sister? "Your" can be used to establish relationship without implying ownership. If land is not owned by anyone, that is to say your rightful claim to be there is not recognized by society, when I come in and kick you out, you have no recourse. That sucks pretty hardcore. And I don't see how my having land makes you a slave.

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There are absolutely arguments to be held against democracy, but I don't think these are it.
Well, any other result means that the majority has enforced their will on the minority. That's just might makes right. So when you say "WE THE PEOPLE," what you actually mean is "WE THE STRONGEST."

WE THE MAJORITY would be a better way to put it, yeah. But I also think that a true democracy can only function if the rights of the minority are protected, much like the constitution seeks to do.
How are the rights of the minority respected by majority rule? If you want the rights of the minority to be respected, you must have a proportionally representative system. Like capitalism.

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I don't think imposing yours on others provides any more freedom or peace than them imposing theirs on yours.
I'm not imposing my views on anyone. Merely resisting their attempts to impose theirs on me.

Right. But if I don't believe land can't be anybodies private property, you'll probably still violently get rid of me if I step on the land you call 'yours'.
Well, that depends. If you're just visiting, there's no need to be rude to visitors. If you decide you'd like to live there rent free, though, you'll find that rather tough with my boot up your ass.
530  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 07:48:01 PM
Saying there was an administrative issue in the "back country" doesn't change the fact the the US government has claimed to right to levy taxes from day 1.
And thus the argument that all governments, by their nature, are illegitimate, because they violate the rights they pretend to protect.
531  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: May 20, 2013, 07:42:23 PM
*yawn* So it's usually appropriation from the previous owner.
You mean, theft? Or did they pay that previous owner for the property?
*double yawn* Some exchange is made and the new person somehow gets the materials from the previous person.
Yes, that's the way capitalism works. A voluntary exchange of value for value is made, and the new owner gets the materials from the old owner.
You mean that would be how your simplified theory of Capitalism might work if it weren't for all that confusing "real world" stuff that keeps getting in the way.
Like?
532  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 07:39:34 PM
 There is no such thing as a society without violence so the best we can do is have an institution that has a monopoly on violence and then have the servants of that institution tied up in rules that limit their scope for violence.  That institution is the democratic state.
Actually, the best thing we can do is allow market competition to select the best providers of security from that violence, and do so in such a way that those providers do not themselves violate their customers security.

That is indeed a threat.  But I don't make it - its the law.  You personally made death threats.
And who makes the law, Hawker? It's a democracy, right? The people make the law. Are you not people?
533  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 07:35:46 PM
I live in an area where if the state failed, we would be subject to sharia law, I would be forced to pay special taxes for not being a muslim and could end up being killed.
How is that any different from what you advocate - pay taxes or face imprisonment and possible death?
I do not advocate that myrkul be killed for disagreeing with me.
Well, it's good to see that you've finally come around and agreed that payment for government services should be voluntary. I think we can end this conversation, now. You're no longer threatening me.

I never have threatened you.
No? What's this, then?
 And I have never said that payment for government services should be voluntary.
Sounds like a threat, to me. Pay up, or you get worked over.
534  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 07:30:40 PM
I live in an area where if the state failed, we would be subject to sharia law, I would be forced to pay special taxes for not being a muslim and could end up being killed.
How is that any different from what you advocate - pay taxes or face imprisonment and possible death?
I do not advocate that myrkul be killed for disagreeing with me.
Well, it's good to see that you've finally come around and agreed that payment for government services should be voluntary. In that case, I think we can end this conversation, now. You're no longer threatening me.
535  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: May 20, 2013, 07:28:07 PM
*yawn* So it's usually appropriation from the previous owner.
You mean, theft? Or did they pay that previous owner for the property?
*double yawn* Some exchange is made and the new person somehow gets the materials from the previous person.
Yes, that's the way capitalism works. A voluntary exchange of value for value is made, and the new owner gets the materials from the old owner.
536  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 07:22:43 PM
Do you deny that your beliefs support and uphold the murderers and robbers, making you a danger to me?

Myrkul, I have great respect for your opinions but have to agree with hawker here. I can see where your argument is tending and to be honest, it'll take you down the Trotsky Road if you get my drift. Wink
Anyone who knowingly supports tyranny is a sociopath. The kindest thing I can and should do is refuse to associate with them. As I stated before, if they choose to make an issue of it, I'll defend myself.
537  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 07:14:40 PM
You say that my beliefs are a danger to you making me a murderer and robber.
Do you deny that?

The interesting thing is that given the chance to step back from the death threats, you wriggle around looking for a way to change the subject.  Do you think no-one will notice?
Answer the question. Do you deny that your beliefs support and uphold the murderers and robbers, making you a danger to me?

You don't have the right to act as judge, jury and executioner.  Whether or not I deny your beliefs does not give you the right to kill me.

Again, look at yourself.  You are making death threats because your argument doesn't persuade.  Its disgusting.
The interesting thing is that when given the chance to own up to your actions, and change the evil of your ways, you wriggle around looking for a way to change the subject.  Do you think no-one will notice?
Answer the question. Do you deny that your beliefs support and uphold the murderers and robbers, making you a danger to me?
538  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: May 20, 2013, 07:12:14 PM
*yawn* So it's usually appropriation from the previous owner.
You mean, theft? Or did they pay that previous owner for the property?
539  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 07:09:35 PM
You say that my beliefs are a danger to you making me a murderer and robber.
Do you deny that?

The interesting thing is that given the chance to step back from the death threats, you wriggle around looking for a way to change the subject.  Do you think no-one will notice?
Answer the question. Do you deny that your beliefs support and uphold the murderers and robbers, making you a danger to me?
540  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Make sure you pay your taxes to the government that spies on you! on: May 20, 2013, 07:04:26 PM
You say that my beliefs are a danger to you making me a murderer and robber.
Do you deny that?
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