 By the way, i'm wondering if it does exist some experiment of P2P social network, a sort of Distributed, democratized facebook, twitter or similar I post here also because my english sucks, as you can see  |
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Esiste qualche progetto simile che voi sappiate?
Avevo letto che qualcuno dell'Occupy Wall Street se ne stava occupando ma poi non ne ho più sentito parlare e ho perso i link.
Sarebbe una svolta!
Considerando quello che si riesce a fare con bitmessage, opentransaction, ripple, e tutte le nuove idee che stanno uscendo fuori per un currency exchange P2P... perchè non dovrebbe essere possibile?
Sarà che ormai ogni volta che uso facebook (molto raramente) e google mi vien voglia di rileggere la bibliografia completa di George Orwell...
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I was one of the few people who got into that thread when there were still lesser then 5 views, you know what I did after reading till just before the picture? I closed my window of the thread thinking of the noobs who dont get hints
TF who publicly advertises Ripple is a scam opens a thread to give ripple btcs <<< what is the first thing that comes to your mind? If you are retarded enough not to get the hint that something is bound to happen and simply post your ripple address thinking of "FREEEEEEEE MONEYYYYYYYYYYY" and "FREEEEE MONEYYYY , ILL JUST REPORT OP AS A SCAMMER IF I DONT GET FREEEEE MONEEYYYYYYYY". Thats probably most of the people thoughts when they posted thier addressess. I would really like to help the guy who lost his real btc if he really lost it, I just cannot belief it and the evidence that is provided.
All this points to Ripple being a scam instead of TF, the developers of OpenCoin couldnt possibly never though of such an easy loophole when they designed the system. Knowing a potential loophole of your system but still advertising it and not fixing it but rather treating it as a plus for your system is essentially the same as a scam to me.
Alright, Im outta here before I get labelled as a scammer for nothing as well /sarcasm
Again this nice argument: noobs must be scammed !!! ; ) But you probably miss the point: people who do understand the trick could have used it to steal, as actually did that weird guy ironcross ; ) What you call a loophole... it isn't in my opinion... is a good thing that you're forced to think at trusted relationships when you talk about money, because it is the way money flow, bitcoins included. By the way, of course it is an opinion, which i won't try to impose scamming someone. Alright, Im outta here before I get labelled as a butt-hurted scammed or a Ripple Addicted or a paid troll. |
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His newbie thread was to make a point.
BTC and BTC IOUs are not the same thing.
DUH.
Oh, really do you need that thread to understand it? WOW |
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All the haters probably
1. Supporters of Ripple
2. Enraged that it isnt real BTC
3. Doesnt understand that Ripple IS a lie, with its many flaws im surprised there are still people using it.
1. NO 2. NO 3. NO I like Ripple but i'm not affiliated nor a "supporter" (maybe... still) nor i'm in love with it. Infact diskiling Ripple shouldn't be a handicap in understanding how dishonest TF was. I see here a lot of people wich basically are saying that letting people to lose theyr money to demonstrate (without any logic in this demonstration) that Ripple is flawed it's right. That's simply absurd. People trusted TF, in a system they don't understand well, but they never thought to be in danger of losing 100 BTC each. That's because he intentionally misrepresented Ripple and his IOUs. i don't think you understand what happened in the thread. webr3 tried to get his btc "stolen" but it didn't work the first time around, so he told tradefort to send it on ripple /again/ after letting the whole community know where to steal it. "FREE BAG OF MONEY UNDER THE PARK BENCH ALL NIGHT. BUT IF YOU STEAL IT, THE PERSON I TOLD TO PUT IT THERE (INSTEAD OF GIVING TO ME THROUGH BLOCKCHAIN) IS A SCAMMER." All the haters probably
1. Supporters of Ripple
2. Enraged that it isnt real BTC
3. Doesnt understand that Ripple IS a lie, with its many flaws im surprised there are still people using it.
agreed I was not talking about webr3, but the whole thing. Another user (who still didn't claim it) has lost 1 BTC, and it could have been ended much worse. Why you're screaming? Did you follow this affair from the beginning?
I see here a lot of people wich basically are saying that letting people to lose theyr money to demonstrate (without any logic in this demonstration) that Ripple is flawed it's right. That's simply absurd.Is that right in your opinion? |
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Exactly, and one non-niave person who let himself be defrauded of 10+ BTC to save some newbie loosing his life savings.
Yes webr3, of course i wasn't talking of you and i appreciate very much what you did ; ) |
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Shibaji, I have to differ: this thread is very much needed as it exposes blatantly a huge flaw in debt-based systems, including Ripple.
...
As it is, Ripple is scammer paradise, and in some way "democratizes" the very characteristics of the financial system that Bitcoin was designed to address.
I don't agree, Ripple makes explicit the problem of trust, which you faces everytime you put your money in a bank or in an exchange, as you do for sure with mtgox or btc-e or similar. This is the feature i appreciate most in Ripple. Infact, only newbyes or naive people trusted TF, that's why it is a scam. TF exposed nothing, and i'm really surprised there is people who didn't understand how Ripple works. He only exploited trust of naive people. |
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All the haters probably
1. Supporters of Ripple
2. Enraged that it isnt real BTC
3. Doesnt understand that Ripple IS a lie, with its many flaws im surprised there are still people using it.
1. NO 2. NO 3. NO I like Ripple but i'm not affiliated nor a "supporter" (maybe... still) nor i'm in love with it. Infact diskiling Ripple shouldn't be a handicap in understanding how dishonest TF was. I see here a lot of people wich basically are saying that letting people to lose theyr money to demonstrate (without any logic in this demonstration) that Ripple is flawed it's right. That's simply absurd. People trusted TF, in a system they don't understand well, but they never thought to be in danger of losing 100 BTC each. That's because he intentionally misrepresented Ripple and his IOUs. |
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a me sfugge come farà un sistema così complicato a diventare di uso comune
anche a me. è davvero cervellotico lol effettivamente da niubbo lo trovo anch'io nn facilmente fruibile. se far accettare l'uso dei btc al grande pubblico comporta già qlk problema, immagino che x ripple la cosa sarà ancora più ardua. se poi aggiungiamo la campagna denigratoria da parte di veterani esperti .... Si, anche io ho le stesse perplessità, spero solo che l'avvento di nuovi custom clients semplifichi il suo utilizzo. Il problema più urgente è che bisogna rendere evidente la rischiosità dell'attribuzione di fiducia; per il resto, come per utilizzare bitcoins non è necessario conoscere la struttura della blockchain o essere un'esperto di criptografia, lo stesso vale per Ripple ed i suoi meccanismi di pagamento, o almeno spero ; ) Quello che più mi ha sconvolto, di tutta questa faccenda di TF, è che anche membri anziani del forum (e quindi navigati utilizzatori di BTC) non avevano capito un tubo di Ripple pur riponendovi un discreto interesse... D'altra parte nonostante il numero elevatissimo di newbyes e lo specchietto per allodole del finto BTC regalato da parte di un trusted member, la truffa ha permesso di rubare un solo bitcoin (anche se potrebbe non essere finita del tutto) dimostrando una certa resistenza del sistema.... Sono perplesso... |
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I'm responding to someone saying sending XRPs does not require trust, which is factually incorrect.
Playing with the word trust ; ) another example of empty rhetoric |
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There are numerous differences with XRP/BTC, most importantly the fact that you still need trust to send XRP transactions Whoa whoa whoa, stop there. Sending XRP from any ripple address to any other ripple address requires no trust. Unless you're going to claim it's the users trusting Ripple itself but that's no different from trusting bitcoin itself. Seems that he rly doesn't understand ... Other fake arguments, instead, are only purely rhetorical and didn't surprise me, they only demonstrate a sort of obsession against ripple which we shouldn't be interested in. Although is very interesting to elaborate about Ripple and the false flaws he claims to find, i think that is more important here to understand the fraudulent nature of his original thread and how he exploited his reputation as a member of this forum putting in danger a lot of users.I think that an analysis purified from the instrument (i.e. Ripple) could help to better understand the dynamics which are, precisely, independent from that instrument.
That's why i posted my question to him but, who knows why, he doesn't want to answer: Just confirm if i'm right: 1) Did you warn people who trusted you that you weren't able to repay that "I owe you" with real bitcoins?
NO
2) You encouraged people to withdraw those IOUs in a gateway?
YES
3) Did you know that such a withdraw could have (and probably did) resulted in financial loss (even huge one) to another user who naively trusted you?
YES
[if not, you hadn't understand ripple and you weren't able to criticize it]
4) That Bitcoin you withdrawed to Bitstamp, was previously owned by you?
NO, as you said
Sounds like an admission. Just to clarify: point (3) states that you've allowed the guys who understand the mechanism to steal money to the gullible. I'd like to hear from you the answer of the last 2 questions: 5) Why did you choose to post that thread in the newbye section?
6) Why the thread was self-moderated?
MAy i add: 7) Do you are conscious that it could have ended with people losing much much more bitcoins? 8 ) Given that only 1.01 bitcoins were stolen, you consider what you call an "experiment", and i define a scam, succesfully? |
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Allora, nel software la fiducia significa che tu consideri "validi" gli IOU di un gateway, nel senso che se glie li reinvii indietro lui te li ripaga con soldi veri.
Ti "fidi" di bitstamp nel senso che accetti i suoi USD (iou) su Ripple confidando di poterteli fare bonificare da bitstamp in un secondo momento.
Se ci pensi è giusto, sei tu che ti fidi di Bitstamp se gli dai i tuoi USD (o bitcoins) veri, in cambio di una cambiale su Ripple.
IL thread di TF è fuorviante perchè lui ha donato degli IOU (Io ti devo) che però non aveva nessuna intenzione di ripagare (e lo ha fatto esplicitamente). La gente ingenuamente gli ha dato fiducia e questo significa che, per quegli ingenui, gli IOU di TF hanno lo stesso valore di quelli garantiti da bitstamp e possono essere scambiati gli uni per gli altri automaticamente.
Il bilancio di TF infatti è negativo, quello degli utenti è positivo, nel senso che loro hanno un credito, registrato su Ripple, di BTC nei confronti di TF.
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E' tutto giusto, tranne: - uno di questi utenti "il pollo" aveva in realtà versato BTC "veri" ad un gateway e dato fiducia a TF, il gateway ha dato fiducia "al pollo" per i BTC versati e qualcuno è riuscito a cedere i BTC ad un gateway e ad incassarli nel suo wallet in BTC?
Il gateway non deve mai estendere la fiducia, è il "pollo" che estendendo fiducia sia al gateway che a TF ha permesso che gli ious presenti nel suo account venissero scambiati. Anche a me si blocca tutto se becco un account con molti contatti; dchapes ha elaborato un custom client (ancora non lo ha rilasciato) per analizzare meglio la rete, sennò si dovrebbe controllare account per account ed è un casino. |
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Fake argument? Lol, I've already addressed it, try to read. Someone who I sent 100 BTC to could pretend that they "lost" their 100 bitstamp IOUs, when they have not lost it, and just traded it to their alt account.
This is about the fourth or fifth time you disregarded what I have read, so you've being put on my ignore list.
I didn't disregard anything. YOu don't understand ripple i guess. You can CONTROL anything there. Is it possible to make lots of fake Bitcoins and withdraw them through Bitstamp?
You can alwais create fake credit of any currency by issuing trust to another account you own, as TF did with that 10000000 btcs in his account. But to withdraw them to a gateway, someone with ious of that gateway must TRUST you, i.e. accepting your fake ious for reliable's one. FALSE. If you TRUST someone who have TRUSTED me, or if you have trusted someone who have trusted someone who have trusted me, [ infinite web of trust ], then you will accept my IOUs and give the sender your bitstamp / etc IOUs. Even if you have never trusted me, your Bitstamp IOUs could be being substituted for my IOUs.Hence why Ripple is broken. You know, try reading RippleScam.org, I wrote about it. Before I waste any more of my time, you're now on the ignore list. Go back to ripple forums (or primary school and learn how to read)  FALSE what? It is exactly how it run. Trusting someone who trusts you is the same thing of trusting you. You're only adding a corollary to my explanation. PS: would you please ask the last questions? |
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Is it possible to make lots of fake Bitcoins and withdraw them through Bitstamp?
You can alwais create fake credit of any currency by issuing trust to another account you own, as TF did with that 10000000 btcs in his account. But to withdraw them to a gateway, someone with ious of that gateway must TRUST you, i.e. accepting your fake ious for reliable's one. |
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I am consistent, I have not withdrawn a Bitcoin to bit stamp (I don't even trust them enough for more than a couple of dollars). So, like I said, transactions > 0.01 are not mine, my test transactions which were .01 and smaller amounts on other accounts are my coins.
Also, I feel the need to say this because I know you will get it wrong - not all of the 0.01 may be/are mine, anyone who I gave BTC to could have done it, and I don't know other peoples transactions or care enough to check.
I'm happy to sign a message for you to prove it.
No, you are everything but consistent. Of course i got it wrong, I made the question for this specific motivation: you couldn't be in control of what ious the system would have swapped. But you can know it after, if you have lost at least 0.01 bitstamp ious in that trick, which i don't think. Re covering losses: nobody has claimed any with me. I cannot have a policy of covering all losses, as I do not know if they are the same person pretending they lost, but I'm happy to work on a case by case basis. In addition, I did not directly cause anyone any loss, the flaws in the ripple system had allowed other people to.
fake argument. It's all public and documented in the ledger, noone can lie about it. Just ask for the ripple account of the person who is claiming the loss and ask them to prove its property. PS: would you please ask the other questions? |
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@Runam0k: i totally agree with you in all your points ; )
@drawingthesun:
TF later denied to cover the losses, this would have been very nice (considering that we are talking about only 1 BTC).
But... did he show anything? Besides in that thread there were a lots of noob, only 1 BTC was stolen, and he has contributed to explain Ripple's trust lines... great fail in my opinion ; )
But to understand how rash he was, you have to think how many bitcoins could have been stolen with that mess... hundreds...
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@Deprived: probably you don't read my previous posts. I'm totally conscious that he didn't explicity promise to repay those IOUS. The trick consist of another mechanism, which i explained so many times, and is based on trust (ripple's one), not on his IOUs. Please, find the time to read the denunciation thread ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207535.0)or my previous posts here. At least 1 bitcoin was taken away from a noob, but this trick could have caused much higher losses. |
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I'm interested also in what YOU think
I think that is very bad for bitcoin itself if someone can exploit his reputation as user of this forum to organize a scam letting people to steal other's bitcoins, whatever are his intentions.
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