tl;dr OP paid a bank to protect his assets from theft, he is a customer, not a creditor of the said bank, the bank took his payment then steal the assets themselves.
That's not how it works. Deposit is a liability to a bank, loan is an asset. Normally bank tries to have more assets than liabilities. If loans go bad, assets shrink and bank is insolvent: it can no longer pay back money to depositors. This is how fractional reserve banking works. Full reserve banking should work like you describe, but that's simply not what we have. |
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Special thanks to:
- Jeroen Dijsselbloem
- Angela Merkel
- Manuel Barroso
- the rest of officials of "European Comission"
You're barking at a wrong tree. Basically it is just a bank's fuck up. Bank is insolvent, it cannot pay everybody. Normally government steps in in such situations, but liabilities of Cypriot banks are way bigger than Cypriot government can afford. So they asked EU for a loan... But EU does not want to cover total liabilities of Cypriot banks, they want to reduce such liabilities into a more manageable sum so that people held money in Cypriot banks will take some loss. Otherwise debt is unsustainable, I guess. Without EU's bailout the only option is liquidation... It isn't true that bank is left with 0 assets, but it would take a lot of time to sell those assets, and in the end you'll probably get same 20%. So you should not blame European Commission. Yes, they could help you more, but it is up to them. They did not steal your money. It was oversight on your side to keep money in banks of a country with oversized banking sector. High liabilities to GDP ratio means that country cannot help its banking sector. Same thing happened to Iceland, although deal was different. Anyway, if you want to keep money in offshore banks again, that means that you haven't learned the lesson. |
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В общем. получается чуток централизованная система =) В принципе не так уж и плохо.
Насчёт майнинга я не понял, как-то мутно описано.
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Currently fees are used mostly to discourage 'spam' transactions which could flood the network. They are negligible compared to number of bitcoins mined. your knocking down the straw man. Are you retarded? You comment on two year old thread, completely miss the point, and claim it was a straw man. I was talking about significance of transaction fees for miners. Not about costs of fees to users. THIS IS what we were talking about, not what you imagined. Read what I was replying to. Fucking retard. Do you even understand what "straw man" means? It doesn't mean "people are talking about things I do not understand". fees are clearly not negligible compared to many tranfer sums, which is what counts. Yes. a 0.0005 btc fee is a bloody rip-off. that's 3 €cent and counting ... for a 200 byte transfer. that is immoral. You do not understand how it works, do you? It isn't just a data transfer, these 200 bytes will be stored FOREVER on thousands of systems. (And it will be transferred millions of times... So we are talking about gigabytes of transfer.) Absolutely nothing immoral about it... If anything, it is too cheap. Yes, Bitcoin is not suitable for microtransactions. If you think there is a need for microtransactions, try to design a system which works better. |
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I'm an atheist, though I can certainly understand the religious prohibition against crap like this. Will your business venture make the world a better or worse place? This kind of uncreative, greedy mentality and all the get-rich-quick type businesses popping up are a disgrace to the community. If this is the best people can come up with, you can say goodbye to your economy, standard of living, etc. Bitcoin or no, if all you can produce in your economy is lottery tickets, you are truly fucked. Even that 23yr old Avalon guy who calls his customers the bottom feeders of bitcoin is worthy of a lot more respect, at least he produced something of value. This is just another leach. Life is short, do something you could be proud of, and your childeren's childeren will be proud you did. What kind of people do you think get involved with running casinos anyway? Prediction market is not a casino. Have you heard about Futarchy? I'll give you a quote: Betting markets are our best known institution for aggregating information. Please read the whole article, though: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:W92w_ENQRbQJ:hanson.gmu.edu/futarchy.html+&cd=2&hl=uk&ct=clnk&gl=ua |
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There is a more secure design than what aan have described, basically a third party controls whether Alice or Bob will be paid. (It cannot send money to Eve, though.) But if third party dies, Alice and Bob can settle it among themselves.
This would be the n/k keys thing? Well, the basic version is just 2-of-3 multisig, however there is a more complex script which would decrease reliance on third party. Maybe that'd be better, even if to some degree it still requires A/B trust the third party. It is fundamentally impossible to settle bets securely without trust into a third party. Almost... I have a sketch of a fully decentralized prediction market design, but it is really complex and still kinda imperfect. |
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Basically betting is exactly the opposite of this scheme you're proposing. The fact that BitBet is doing thousands in bet BTC a month whereas an implementation of your idea doesn't even exist in practice should be sufficient empirical evidence that you're wrong. Why isn't it?
A lot of betting and trading sites have perished. Bitcoinica, Kronos.io, Mooncoin, Betcoin, Bitscalper... Is there a reason why BitBet is more secure than any of them? Aside from operator being a buddy of MP. BitVPS operator was also a buddy of MP, but it turned out he is an asshole, didn't he? So "being a MP's buddy" is not a good criterion. There is a more secure design than what aan have described, basically a third party controls whether Alice or Bob will be paid. (It cannot send money to Eve, though.) But if third party dies, Alice and Bob can settle it among themselves. It is based on hash-locked payout script, I've designed it back in summer of 2011. Implementation doesn't exist because people are way more interested to make a quick buck than to actually implement something worthy. Also users are not willing to sacrifice a bit of convenience in the name of security. |
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Fixed a bug (sounds like the one you describe) - check pull request. Yeah, works now. Thanks. Your second patch didn't work though: it says no valueToBigInt function, or something like that. |
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color-aware block explorer kinda works now: http://178.33.22.12:3334/bexplo.htmlIt is on testnet because there are performance issues with mainnet... Likely need to upgrade server to run it on mainnet... Also fix code, I guess. Two color definitions are loaded: red and blue. (In future one could just point it to a color definition bundle of his choice.) Genesis of blue: b1586cd10b32f78795b86e9a3febe58dcb59189175fad884a7f4a6623b77486e (loaded at start) Genesis of red: 8f6c8751f39357cd42af97a67301127d497597ae699ad0670b4f649bd9e39abf There is a bug: in some cases, colored input might be shows as having color 'none' at first, but when it shows same transaction again (click 'show' button) color is displayed correctly. E.g. here: bd34141daf5138f62723009666b013e2682ac75a4264f088e75dbd6083fa2dba (4 blue inputs are merged into one). Code is here: https://github.com/killerstorm/bitcoin-tx-spent-db (branch 'extra') |
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Would it be possible to return the money automatically after some period of inactivity, without any action by a mediator?
Do you mean as a protection against a case where operator is dead? Yes, it is possible. For example, user is given nLockTime'd transaction which locks in a year and sends money back to user, but operator has nLockTime'd transction which locks in 11 months and sends money back into escrow. If operator is alive he will release his transaction and thus will prevent release of funds back to user. However, it doesn't save user from a malicious operator. The site could also be run on any kind of shady web server in any part of the world, without a big risk by the user. I don't think so. Operator still controls payoffs. If private key is stolen, I'm sure you will lose some of your money. I personally would trust an automatic return of money more than any mediator, who could also disappear etc. Well, I don't know, it's very unlikely both will disappear at the same time. In my opinion, the worst thing in this scheme in general is that the winners have to wait for the losers to release their money. Of course this could be mitigated with the site keeping some amount of buffer funds available. And the buffer would be there just to speed up the payments, and not be an integral part of the operations. Yes. A different scheme is to use peer-to-peer bets with operator controlling payoff. (So-called contracts.) In this case no wait is necessary. (Winner can claim funds as soon as operator announces who wins.) Also people can simply get money back if operator is dead. |
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По моему мнению, без децентрализованного p2p-обменника подобные цветные коины не имеют смысла. Ключевое в данном утверждении именно 'децентрализованный'. Уже реализован. Хотя есть разные мнения по поводу того, какая степень децентрализации является достаточной. p2p-обменник должен реализовывать следующие вещи:
1. атомарная операция обмена - технически правильно это можно реализовать на основе blockchain и технологий аналогичным merged mining (точнее когда в блокчейне сохраняется слепок/хеш, подтверждающий информацию во внешней базе), иначе только централизацией (более красиво - наличием нескольких автоматизированных escrow, таит в себе кучу подводных камней) Операции обмена атомарны просто потому что "деньги" и "стулья" передаются в одной транзакции. Это очень просто реализуется, не нужно merged mining  Есть, конечно, такая проблема, что можно запостить оффер не собираясь его выполнять... Либо оборвать протокол в середине. Грубо говоря, spam и DoS атаки. Но эти проблемы можно решить. К примеру, введением репутации. 2. публикация и гарантии валидности информации об истории сделок, списке текущих предложений покупки/продажи. История сделок видна в blockchain. Но как бы информацию никто никому не обязан предоставлять. Если нужны такие гарантии, то это к SEC |
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In general, what you said sounds like a good way to do all kinds of betting services. Well, yeah, I was thinking about it since 2011... My plan was to start with BTC/USD futures, and then to expand into options, prediction market, betting, etc. Never got around to it, though I wonder why this kind of thing doesn't seem to be standard by now. I wonder about that too... Perhaps people simply do not give a fuck. Even without the use of a mediator this kind of system seems quite good to me. The risk the user of a site like this In an extreme case the operator of the site could refuse to release anybodies money, but he wouldn't get it either. The whole site could also be shut down by the authorities, with the same result. Well, it would be great to solve this problem... For example, it is possible to give a trusted 3rd party an ability to return funds back to user, but only after a large timeout. Say, two years... It is possible that users and this 3rd party will collude, but presumable it will be detected before timeout, and so it is possible to punish this trusted 3rd party before timeout. |
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Но тут возникает один момент, при относительной простоте выпуска цветных коинов, каких угодно, кем угодно и в неограниченных количествах, это, по-моему, может привести к переполнению всего возможного пространства, так сказать. Замусориванию различными пирамидохайпами и подобным им лохотронами, а в таком мусоре уже мало кто будет копаться. Более-менее серьёзные инструменты, на фоне этого, будут выглядеть не очень привлекательно, а значит выпускать их будет не выгодно. Я думаю как раз наоборот =) Сейчас биржи контролируют и техническую сторону торговли, и отбор компаний. Серьёзно делом занимается только MPEX, у остальных позиция такая: заплати мзду, нарисуй более-менее правдоподобный контракт, и всё. С другой стороны, MPEX это закрытая платформа, только зарегистрировать трейдером стоит 30 BTC. (Трейдером, не компанией... Я даже не представляю сколько они берут за IPO.) Цветные коины позволят отделить техническую платформу от функции отбора компаний. Это позволит создание компаний, специализирующихся на составлении контрактов, проверке, аудите, отборе и т.д. Сейчас войти в этот бизнес очень сложно и дорого, т.к. требуется разработка торговой площадки, поиск одновременно и компаний для размещения, и инвесторов. Если цветные коины решают вопрос с торговлей, то достаточно просто заниматься анализом, сбором, публикацией информации. Поскольку дружить с программистами уже не обязательно, делом могут заняться специалисты в других областях: финансисты, юристы и т.д. Я себе это представляю так: люди, которым нужны деньги для бизнеса обращаются к криптовалютным инвестбанкирам, так сказать. Те проверяют бизнес модель, личности учредителей компании, составляют контракт, проводят проверки. И в конце концов проводят размещение, публикую информацию на своём сайте. Разумеется, инвесторы будут доверять в первую очередь компаниям, по которым есть солидная документация. А впоследствии "инвестбанкиры" могут заработать себе репутацию. Очень просто проверить какой процент компаний рекомендованных определённой групой инвестбанкиров оказались реально прибыльными. |
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Если я правильно понимаю суть, то механизм цветных коинов получается примерно такой:
- скачиваю клиент, запускаю, перевожу туда немного биткоинов
- "окрашиваю" все эти биткоины или их часть своими обещаниями и обязательствами, допустим, выплатами некоего % каждый месяц
- продаю получившиеся "обещания" на каком-либо стороннем ресурсе(или может сразу в клиенте), например, по десятикратной цене
- в дальнейшем выполняю или не выполняю свои обещания
Так?
Да. Продажа идёт через клиент, но контракт, то есть обещания, это вещь по отношению к клиенту внешняя, поэтому его нужно опубликовать на каком-то ресурсе, возможно, на своём. В противном случае просто покупателей не будет, т.к. никто не будет знать В принципе с точки зрения пользователей оно может выглядить идентично уже существующим биржам типа: https://btct.co/ http://mpex.co/Но при выпуске через цветные биткоины не требуется доверия самой бирже... Напоминаю, прошлой осенью закрылся GLBSE, что обеспечило гемор инвесторам и компаниям на несколько месяцев. Собственно есть даже такая идея -- предложить подобным биржам использовать цветные коины для взаиморасчётов, чтобы не нужно было делать passthrough. |
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Please elaborate further, how this could be done. We have no need for the coins before the maturity, so if there is no risk to us, or hassle to the user, we certainly want to give it a shot. The basic idea is that funds are blocked in such a way so both service's and user's signatures are require, i.e. neither service nor user can move money on his own. There is a risk that user won't unblock funds when he should. Normally this isn't a problem as you can give user an incentive to unblock funds. For example, user deposits 110 BTC, puts 100 BTC into a bet, loses it. He still has 10 BTC on account, and he needs to unblock whole sum to get it. However, there can be a problem with users who are stupid assholes, are dead or want to ruin service financially at their own expense. I don't know how likely are these scenarios, but it's possible to try to fix it using a more advanced scheme, say, 2-of-3 signature: some trusted 3rd party can unblock funds when user isn't cooperating. As for the tech side, in the most minimal way you can generate a private key from a user's password in browser and use it to sign multi-sign transaction. It is relatively easy to implement. People did something like this via command-line interface... However, as far as I know, currently it isn't used in any of user-facing apps. blockchain.info has a page about escrow, but it isn't present in wallet. |
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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155597.msg1650031#msg1650031В общем, нужны программисты на C++, Python, JS, (возможно) Java; желательно хорошо разбирающиеся в биткоинах, криптографии, безопасности, алгоритмах. Ну и вообще умные люди Оплата в форме bounties, то есть сделал задачу -- получи деньги. К примеру за сравнительно небольшие задачи, так, на день работы мы платили по 5 BTC. Но курс подрос, так что наверное уменьшим =) Есть возможность брать задачи побольше, но тогда нужно предоставить информацию о сроках выполнения, прогресс и т.д. В общем, если интересует, пишите PM (да в принципе можно и в коменты, мне без разницы =) ): * что умеете * что уже делаели * чем хотите заниматься * сколько на это требуется денег * сколько времени можете отвести на работу в неделю (минимум) Тогда мы сможем более конкретно выделить задачи и т.д.
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