I am going to add "No Marginable Exchanges" to the OP.

Apparently the first and most immoral aspect of crypto work that needs to be addressed is how centralized exchanges are turning the entire ecosystem into a criminal enterprise:

The probable reason that whales (insiders) don't want DEX (decentralized exchange) is because then they can't do their "print demand out of thin air" margined premine manipulation pumps:

r0ach your allegation about ETH being manipulated is starting to resonate on this board:

They have an Achilles heel and I am about ready to put an end to this ICO nonsense (see my prior post upthread):

The criminality of the world is in crypto, so don't be surprised at the paid trolls and vitriol:

The way the insiders manipulate the market with these premined tokens is explained, and note the high leverage employed which means if they run out of tokens to margin with, it is like a house-of-cards and will implode to 0 in a heartbeat:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1524111.msg15340159#msg15340159

They siphon off BTC for as long as they can and high as they can pump it, then game over and they walk away with BTC and the fools walk away with empty bags.

Also some (including the Daoattacker) allege that the USGovt + MIT (university) are complicit in the ETH pump:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1413819.msg15343686#msg15343686

Please do not conflate ICO coins with premined, instamined, or stealthmined coins. If the ICO coins were distributed at the market price then that is not a premine. The problem is that ICO pricing is never set by the market and ICOs can be manipulated as follows.

Apparently they need to include WAVES in the "significantly premined". Please note that every ICO is likely "significantly premined" because the issuers can borrow BTC to buy the ICO from themselves, then pay back the loan (with the BTC they paid themselves) giving themselves free ICO tokens and giving the illusion that they raised more money than they really did:

Thank you for the information. I hope someone can document that, so it is a fact and not a hearsay.

I hope he also answers my question.

I am not here to play altcoin police. So I will not harp on this. Speculators should be free to do what ever they want and decide to use trust instead of trustless paradigms if they so desire.

I've asked the questions. Cheers.

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Does vaporware exist even though the ICO is underway, e.g. WAVES, Ethereum, etc.. when they were launched.

It is difficult to define the demarcation between "exist" and "talk" in Bitcointalk.

Darkened on purpose is usually to do a deceptive manipulation, such as an instamine, stealthmine, etc..

Frankly, you sound like you are having a fit of rage, and imagining that you used to be masculine, but if you actually got out of your armchair and into a confrontation or athletic competition with a real man, you'd discover that you are really just an out-of-shape, asshat with an attitude problem.

Theymos, whoop-de-do. Name dropping as a substitute for actual capability.

I already described the parameters of the market:

1. Competitive, i.e. the price not set by the insiders.

2. Insiders can't via deception amass large proportion of the tokens.

I should add a third:

3. Does not require tying the mining to centralization indefinitely, e.g. Zcash's plan to have the miners pay 10% to its foundation indefinitely (does theirs decline to 1% tail, I've forgotten?).


Ah maybe this is becoming a thread jack. Apologies. The opportunity popped up to ask a question. I was just hoping to get some feedback.

Market determined pricing. Free market competition to acquire the tokens. The insiders can't amass a large proportion of the tokens via deception, such as taking out a loan to buy their own ICO.

I mea culpa already (in May and reiterated numerous times in June). I am not the altcoin police any more. Never again. I will ask a few tough questions and leave it at that. iCEBREAKER got the facts wrong in the latest discussion about Monero's mining security.


Nobody reads the flame wars. His importance is entirely a figment of iCEBREAKER's imagination.

Ask tough questions, and leave it at that. Ethereum shows that a good pump manipulation is what speculators want.

Please don't try to cover up the truth. Let him answer.

The same question will be asked of Rise and Lisk.

I am planning to demonstrate a way to raise money without an ICO wherein the market sets the price and the distribution is fair and the scam of getting a loan to buy the ICO from yourself is not plausible. You can read more about that:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1526067.msg15362605#msg15362605

So my serious question to this forum is, with a fair distribution is it impossible for the price to go up? Monero was fairly distributed and the price went up and they have no serious means of attaining adoption (who cares about anonymity).

Is launching a project the honest way, with a serious plan for massive adoption and challenging Bitcoin technologically, going to be rewarded by our community or can only insider pumps succeed?

Serious question. Please feedback.

Here is follow-up on the "No ICO" ideal:

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Thank you sasha for the answer. Please see my logic on how ICOs can be manipulated with loans:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1524111.msg15340159#msg15340159

Please explain how you can prove you haven't taken out a loan to buy the ICO from yourself, for the following purpose:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1413819.msg15343686#msg15343686
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1483658.msg15362517#msg15362517

I do not consider you my enemy. We've for the most part had cordial discussion between us.

I hope you Monero supporters will soon realize that it isn't the one "real deal", so that you can escape the groupthink "assimilate or die" jail and speculate with a free mind.

And then you will hopefully realize how ridiculous it has been to have harassment trolls such as iCEBREAKER in your community. If iCEBREAKER buys tokens in my project, I will disown him from any community that has chosen me as a leader (of course decentralized open source so any one can go create another group if they wish). Who needs him? Where is the leadership in your community.

I had been in support of Monero's experimentation on privacy technology, and well I continue to support its coders in that respect. This isn't an issue of disrespecting Monero's technical work.

In my opinion, Monero's marketing cohesion and community leadership is atrocious. Maybe they can reform, but I doubt it. Seems ingrained into the culture and community mix at this point.

I do think if I am to become a leader of an open source group, I need to stop talking about other projects in a negative light. So I will leave this ongoing debate to you all.

Cheers.

Hahaha. Good one!

Btw, as I mentioned in the OP, I intend to demonstrate how to raise money for the development without the scam of an ICO and where the pricing is set by the market.

I am hopefully going to turn the entire altcoin arena upside down, and inside out.

I hope we can get back to discussing the IDEALs in the OP, irrespective of my plans. Thanks.