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541  Economy / Speculation / Re: proudhon on: March 19, 2013, 06:37:31 PM
EVERYONE in this forum is a bull, even the ones that claim to be bears because if you were a bear, you wouldn't care about bitcoin and you wouldn't be in this forum to begin with.
I disagree!

If we define "bull" as "one who expects the BTC price to rise", and "bear" as "one who expects the BTC price to fall", I can imagine plenty of reasons to be interested in the Bitcoin technology that don't imply bullishness - even long-term bullishness.

There are people who think that the blockchain technology is the future of currency, but see the Satoshi implementation as riddled with instabilities or bad design decisions that will require a new blockchain to (and thus, the eventual abandonment of BTC as current money) to resolve.

There are people who simply believe that the practical use of BTC is too niche to justify a half-billion total nominal value - who reject the "rocketship or nothing" dichonomy and expect the price to eventually stabilize at something more like $13/coin.

There are miners who think BTC will fail in the long-term, and are just here to get their block rewards (cashed out for fiat) until it happens.

And that's not even counting all the people who think BTC will go to the moon in a hundred years, but think it'll revisit $2 before it gets there.
542  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: LTC v BTC Quantum attack on: March 19, 2013, 06:18:44 PM
They are equally vulnerable.

Quantum attacks on the hashing algorithm are utterly irrelevant. The best quantum algorithms give you a big advantage in making hashes, but doesn't let you make them at will; the difficulty will adjust and life will go on. The only relevant quantum attacks are on the digital signature scheme that protects wallets from thieves, and both Bitcoin and Litecoin use ECDSA (which can be broken by Shor's Algorithm).
543  Economy / Speculation / Re: Iam going ALL IN on: March 19, 2013, 09:20:56 AM
544  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: FinCEN addresses Bitcoin on: March 19, 2013, 09:17:35 AM
The way I read this is that mining for bitcoins and selling those for USD is now illegal unless you are a corporation with the right licenses (which cost many thousands) and hundreds of thousands (or even millions) of dollars for bonding requirements, etc.
A significant downside to the ruling, but one that's easily circumvented; all you need to do is cash in your mining spoils by actually spending them in the Bitcoin economy. Buying 1oz rounds, for instance (which can then easily be exchanged for fiat if that's your thing).

Edit: Of course, you could also just ignore the law, provided you're careful enough about where you cash out (and willing to risk the book getting thrown at you if you're discovered).
545  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? on: March 19, 2013, 09:13:04 AM
what does this mean if you sell BTC on Gox?
Nothing.

The cases that are affected are:
1) Mining coins and then selling them for fiat.
2) Acting as a third party who sends coins from Person A to Person B (neither of whom are you) as part of an exchange of fiat.

So, exchanges and miners are affected - nobody else.
546  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: FinCEN addresses Bitcoin on: March 19, 2013, 05:54:14 AM
So now I'm wondering; is anyone free to use bitcoin? Or, is it only for those granted special permission by FinCEN to use in a specified way?  

I suppose if this community endeavors to interface with the establishment, it will have to get used to being constrained by its rules.  
The way I read these rules, the only people affected by it are
1) miners who sell their mined cryptocoins for fiat, and
2) third parties who transfer someone else's cryptocoins as part of an exchange of fiat (i.e. exchanges, BitPay, &c).
547  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? on: March 19, 2013, 04:42:26 AM
Anyone else perplexed by the distinction between "real" and "virtual" that's arbitrarily made without definition?

They provided a definition, though. A "virtual currency" is any currency that isn't legal tender in any country.
548  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: FinCEN addresses Bitcoin on: March 19, 2013, 04:07:49 AM
Why would you set up a decentralised exchange that could be hosted on multiple computers in multiple jurisdictions if you were going to comply with all their endless rules & regs?, especially if you are in multiple countries it will be infeasible to comply. What would be the point of the decentralisation?
The exchange needs cryptographic objects to buy and sell and trade.

The ones who provide those objects (which, at launch, will probably include me) ought to be aware of the laws that will apply to them - whether in order to comply, or merely so that they know what the risks are if the country in which they live finds them out.
549  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: FinCEN addresses Bitcoin on: March 19, 2013, 02:41:17 AM
Me thinks somebody should get working on a decentralised exchange if its even technically feasible.
I've been considering how to do it. I'll need to obtain legal advice, though - there's one piece of it that will probably require a lawyer's advice (especially in the light of the guidance memo's mention of "e-precious metals").
550  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? on: March 19, 2013, 12:54:02 AM
The only downside of this ruling, to me, is that it adds overhead to some mining operations.

Balancing that are what I see as a major upside, plus a minor one:
1) FinCEN has acknowledged Bitcoin as a real thing, and done so in a way that implies they aren't going to pee in the end users' soup. One of the big possible uncertainties of Bitcoin's future was that the gummint, once it took notice of Bitcoin, would react punitively. The fact that the ruling places no restrictions on end-users (or, really, anyone who isn't mining for fiat or running an exchange) goes a long way to dispelling that cloud.
2) Miners are now incentivized to spend their mined coins within the Bitcoin economy, because then they don't have to register as money transmitters. This means an increase in demand for BTC-denominated goods, which is excellent long-term for Bitcoin as a whole.
551  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Experts : Expect a continent wide bank run on: March 18, 2013, 09:50:22 PM
Yes, with bitcoin you can still do fractional reserve....but not to the same degree system-wide as with fiat. Things shouldn't lever as far with bitcoin as the monetary base, since there's no way to backstop it (print more) if/when failures due to leverage occur. Thus, depositors would get freaked out at lower leverage levels, preventing these huge bubbles from getting created.

So in a bitcoin world, Cyprus' banking system wouldn't've gotten to the point where it needed the bailout; thus there would've been no talk of deposit confiscation.
An optimistic view of things. Perhaps, once the financial industry learns that Bitcoin has no printing-press, no fiat safety net, they'll be more prudent with their client investments. But personally, I feel like it'll be hard for financial professionals who have used fiat all their lives to really adjust to that mindset, and until they do, they'll be just as reckless as always.

I suppose we'll just have to see.
552  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Experts : Expect a continent wide bank run on: March 18, 2013, 06:20:51 PM
Founders Note:
This would never happen to bitcoin.

I disagree!

I mean, certainly, people with checking accounts wouldn't be affected, because with Bitcoin you don't need a checking account. But savings accounts? Earning interest? That stuff still requires putting your BTC on deposit with an organization making loans and investments, and such an organization can go insolvent as easily in BTC as they can in your favorite flavor of fiat. And unlike with fiat, there's no remitter of last resort like the EU has (which can theoretically print money to cover government-insured deposits if all else fails).

So, it may be emblematic of the ongoing failures of the banking system, but it's not something that Bitcoin really solves.
553  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why is Bitcoin safe against a quantum computer? on: March 18, 2013, 06:17:14 PM
Bitcoin has some protections against a quantum computer, although not enough.

The thing about addresses is that they aren't cleartext public keys - they're hashes thereof, which for quantum computers are only slightly less infeasible to brute-force.

So the good news is that until you spend from a particular address, your coins at that address are safe; if you avoid reusing addresses, and if you always empty them out when you spend them, and if you submit your transactions directly to the big pools, the risk of someone stealing your coins with a quantum computer is low (because even if they cracked your private key, stealing the coins would effectively require them to double-spend against you).

Really, a quantum-resistant signature scheme would be ideal, but they all have a digest+public key size in the kilobytes (which would require significant, possibly infeasible, block size increases). Hopefully, as the state of the art advances, a more succinct post-quantum signature algorithm will be found that can be easily rolled into Bitcoin.
554  Economy / Speculation / Re: Do the Banks manipulate Bitcoin? on: March 15, 2013, 11:24:02 PM
Similarly, I wonder if people making a profit from investing in bitcoin are liable for capital gains tax, and if so, how many people would actually report it. 

Kind of off-topic to the issue of banks, but it's another legal concern for the bitcoin economy.
Everything I've read seems to indicate that trading in bitcoins works just the same as trading for barter, tax-wise. That is, when you get income in BTC, you report it as income worth what the bitcoins were worth when you got them, and then when you spend/sell the BTC, you report the capital gain/loss.

I'm doing my US taxes right now, and I'm trying to report everything in a forthright way. But it's a lot of busywork.
555  Economy / Speculation / Re: serious Crash Poll on: March 15, 2013, 09:36:43 AM
My bet is as low as 0.5 $/BTC.
Don't get me wrong. I think it's still possible that this is a bubble, and that the pop will be nasty.

But would you like to know why I consider $5/coin an absolute floor, barring some impossible-to-forsee disaster?

Observe.



This is a chart of the three most stable months in BTC's history. During this time, the BTC price was never more than 10% away from $5/coin. After that, the price began to steadily increase - reaching $15, crashing to $8, floating around $10-$13 for a while, and then finally beginning the rally that is still going on today.

But those three months of stability created an impression. There could be no bubble involved - there could be no bull run. There was confidence, for a time period that's still a significant portion of Bitcoin's whole history, that BTC were worth about $5.

To shatter such confidence would, in my view, require the king of all bear markets.

But if you're not convinced by that, then let me show you why expecting the price to drop below $2, barring some impossible-to-forsee disaster, is total fantasyland:



This is a chart of the end of 2011. After the Big Bubble popped, the BTC market was in a downtrend. Many predicted, on this very forum, that BTC was dying and it was just a matter of time.

The price got to $2 in mid-November. At that time, Mt. Gox experienced the biggest trading volume ever - a record that still has not been broken. For several days, the market threatened to break through $2/BTC. It did not. Even in the face of a bubble that brought the price above $1/BTC and had been slowly sputtering out for six months, even among doomsayers who believed with all their hearts that the Bitcoin experiment had failed and the bubble was a one-time event... even in such a climate, people wanted BTC for $2. People wanted them enough that the price never crossed that line. It was an insurmountable foundation of support, and from there the price began to climb again.

Now, the BTC price has beaten the previous bubble - market participants know that high prices were not a one-time opportunity. There are major online services that accept it, other than Silk Road. There's been media attention. In today's environment, what could possibly hurt confidence in the currency any worse than it was hurt in November 2011? What could possibly make people less confident in BTC than they were a year and a half ago, when they bought in with all their might at $2 a coin?
556  Economy / Service Discussion / Bitfinex is down [Update: Nevermind] on: March 15, 2013, 08:38:29 AM


What's up?

Edit: Fifteen minutes later, problem went away.
557  Economy / Speculation / Re: Do the Banks manipulate Bitcoin? on: March 14, 2013, 09:19:29 PM
First!,  you have to buy
Or, borrow.

Of course, that means...
Are they the sharks and most of us the fish that gonna be eaten?  Cool
If they're the sharks, the true believers lending them BTC to short with (and extracting heavy interest in exchange) are shark-farmers. Smiley
558  Economy / Speculation / Re: serious Crash Poll on: March 14, 2013, 09:16:40 PM
Barring a disastrous technological or legal black swan (Gox robbed again, ECDSA broken, Bitcoin outlawed, &c), I can't imagine dipping below $5 and am willing to bet we won't dip below $12 either.

Anything else, well, we'll see. Other than the kodiak in the room, news has generally been bullish; how these forces will play out - and whether the next major correction will take minutes or months to materialize - is anyone's guess at this point.
559  Economy / Speculation / Re: The rally is over on: March 13, 2013, 06:29:41 PM
I may be missing something but it seems to me that when a new version is released, *nothing* it does should be considered valid until there is a high degree of confidence that it is performing as expected. Rollback to 0.7 should have been the default and anyone upgrading to 0.8 should have been made aware that should it generate problems, any output would be regarded as faulty and ignored. If the blockchain continues to match then each block is accepted as valid one at a time. If the blockchain agrees for a long enough amount of time and no issues show up, at some point (Though I know there is no central authority but surely consensus is possible) the new version is accepted as the default and should any discrepancies show up, it is the fork with the new version which is taken as valid and people running outdated versions who are regarded as invalid.
LukeJR was already doing something like this. Apparently Eligius runs two Bitcoin clients, and in the case of a contradiction between them goes with the more "mature" version.

Unfortunately it's hard to incorporate such logic into the client itself - miners have to do it manually right now.
560  Economy / Speculation / Re: The rally is over on: March 13, 2013, 05:32:22 PM
Bottom line is: any automated feature-based unit and integration testing is necessarily focussed on how the developer intends things to be, and thus will never be able to catch all the cases which arise from connecting things in unexpected and never intended ways.
That's why, ideally, you have an independent QA team - who has no expectations of what was in the developers' heads - doing the integration tests.

Of course, in a crowdfunded project like this (as compared to a start-up or corporate R&D project), an independent QA team may be an unaffordable extravagance, barring a community fundraising effort.
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