|
Atlas, since I have proof it's you, can you explain why you are evading Theymos' ban just to comment on your abandoned threads?
|
|
|
|
And on what do you base this?
The fact he leaves troops and military bases in Iraq and says we are not there anymore. It's only 30k diplomatic defense forces and a really big embassy  . He can call it whatever he wants. The fact is the people of Iraq want us out of there and we continue to incite violence by staying there in whatever form. You're also ignoring the PMCs that fight the middle-east resistance on our dime. I'm for a country being in charge of itself as much as the next, but I don't think the "people want"ing something is our concern-- it's the concern of their government, which lets us do what it is you're saying is so bad for them. Instead of preaching to the choir, why don't you go there and preach to their government? |
|
|
|
Thank you Mathew for your perspective. Yes, this might all end badly and I have considered the risks if this particular investment, hence I have not poured everything I have into it, just some and incrementally (thanks Pirate - taking up some of the updated storage).
I didn't consider your post a "troll" at all, but I do need to check the bitcoin awards to see who got the 2011 prize.
I don't think "Worst Troll" made it into the final awards, but I do think "Atlas getting banned" made the best community effort lolz |
|
|
|
For anyone (not just Matthew) reading this and wondering where evorhees and others are coming from, here's an article that might provide food for thought. A common societal myth is that speculation is the cause of price volatility, or at least increases it. Hopefully this can address that concern (I haven't read it, I'm just providing it for those looking for data:) Is Speculation Destabilizing?
Thanks. Reading. |
|
|
|
What I argue about though is that I haven't seen the effects of it.
Do you think it's easier today, or a year ago, for the average person to get their hands on some Bitcoins? Obviously, I'm asking because I assume your answer will be that it's much easier today. Do you think this is because of people offering goods and services for Bitcoin, or because of speculation? If it's easier for people to get Bitcoins, it's easier for people to spend Bitcoins! It's also easier for merchants who want to use Bitcoins, but currently have to pay certain expenses in local fiat, to offer Bitcoins as a choice for their customers. The more liquid the market, the less barriers for wider adoption. Speculation is what has been improving Bitcoin liquidity from the start! If everyone only mines their coins and never uses a currency exchange, wouldn't that bring much more stability? I know this would create an issue about accessibility, but there is an issue with accessibility of gold too, until there was much more of it on the market. It's just that it seems the problem is not about the spot price, but the amount of bitcoins in circulation. Is my thinking flawed if I believe none of this will actually stabilize correctly until 20.999999999 million bitcoins have been mined? |
|
|
|
This kind of information belongs into a wiki or a FAQ if you ask me..
Assuming anybody actually reads these things. I have to because I subscribed 6 months ago. CHRIST HOW DO YOU UNSUBSCRIBE TO THREADS.. |
|
|
|
|
I am always more than happy to share my ignorance on certain topics on the forums to get a debate going that creates more solid arguments and explanations for others in the future.
After rereading the responses I think there is some validity to them so I'll hold off debating until I have more information.
|
|
|
|
|
I think this whole concept needs a reboot. Since I didn't clear this with my colleagues and they seem to think there are both one too many awards efforts in the tiny community to matter, and that it doesn't actually support bitcoin or help bring anyone new into it, I think it might be better to reboot this as a "Most Promising for 2012" awards, or otherwise scrap it altogether.
I love sharing, I love giving away, and I love entertaining people. This entire thread is just the result of thinking we could do a better job but that might have been in vain since the interest from get involved in this kind of awards from most people might just not be there anymore.
Your guys' call. We've got plenty to do at BitTalk.TV to not worry about this, but if you think a "Most Promising of 2012" awards ceremony would be better, I'll reformat to that instead.
|
|
|
|
Am I the only one here that thinks this entire thing will end badly?
Hey, troll somewhere else. kthnx Although hard to believe, I'm being serious. I've seen people in bitcoin throw their money away time and time again and it really feels like everyone is so loaded up on hope (and maybe dope) that they're willing to do anything for a chance of making bitcoin pan out for them. Be realistic afterall, if all I need to do is spend some time and a little bit of money passing money back and forth to get some credibility in order to rob people in a community of tens of thousands of dollars, that doesn't shine well on the community's common sense. I assure you though, if it makes sense to do I'm always involved, and that- not to troll-- is the reason I am here. Am I the only one here that thinks this entire thing will end badly?
I am truly honored the be trolled by the king of all trolls. I fell like I have gotten to the top somehow. Thanks In other news I wake to find that the DC where btclending.com is being hosted is under DDoS attacks. I am not a happy camper.  Atlas is gone. So quiet here.  Have to find new meat to chew on for comedic value. Am I the only one here that thinks this entire thing will end badly?
There's always a non-zero risk of defaulting in any loan situation. As a compulsive loaner on IRC, pirateat40 was just another borrower to me, and I evaluated him as I do with anyone else and decided it seemed safe enough for me to risk it. His actions since my initial loan to him have reinforced my trust in him, but anyone who assumes you can make big money with no risk is going to get burned eventually. Personally, I'd be pretty bummed if he disappeared with my money, but I won't have trouble making the rent and will probably keep dealing bitcoins with other people. And on the grand scheme of things, I still think this deal has probably one of the highest reward/risk ratios out there. So anyway, I think it's a lot more likely to end well than to end badly, but one can never be sure  the only difference between us is that I've dealt with pirateat40 a hell of a lot more than you have. That could either cloud my objectivity or give me more information to form a correct opinion, and I guess time will tell which  tl;dr: yours is a valid concern, and is definitely one that all lenders should be aware of at all times, but I think the risk is low, and I'm risk-tolerant enough to bet a lot of "real money" on that viewpoint Makes perfect enough sense and thanks for taking the time to explain. I understand risk perfectly and appreciate it far more than many people I know. But as you mention: the only difference between us is that I've dealt with pirateat40 a hell of a lot more than you have. That could either cloud my objectivity or give me more information to form a correct opinion, and I guess time will tell which And that response is the one I am looking for. Does everyone here know him? Is everyone just hopping on the trust train because one guy trusts him? That's why I'm asking. To find out. |
|
|
|
What am I missing here?
That it doesn't matter what you think is healthier, people will speculate. Does it bother you that people speculate with other currencies as well? Look at the volume of forex compared to GDP. The volume in speculation dwarfs the volume of actual economy. It doesn't matter though, they aren't mutually exclusive. Bitcoin is young, so it will be volatile (and I think the volatility is what you are actually complaining about, after all, without it people couldn't do the things which you are condemning, e.g., pump and dump). Speculation opens the door for people to easily obtain Bitcoins for use in the economy. As Bitcoin grows, speculation will become more and more competitive and the volatility will slowly fade. If you are a fan of Bitcoin, which it seems you are, why would speculation bother you? It's a result of the market being free. If you want a stable exchange rate, you either need a much larger, more competitive group of speculators, or artificial controls. One is compatible with Bitcoin, the other is not. I understand the desire to see people using Bitcoins, but speculation doesn't harm that at all, in fact it helps! Even if speculation was harmful, which it isn't, what would you propose we do? Outlaw it in an attempt to promote the Bitcoin economy? If you can see how silly that sounds, you must realize speculation is good for Bitcoin. What will help dull the effects of pump and dump, profiteering, etc. is a much higher Bitcoin exchange rate and a much more diverse ownership of Bitcoins. That way, the capital requirements needed to affect the market will be greatly increased, therefor less people will have the ability to do so. TL;DR: It's a waste of energy to complain about speculation, especially if you refuse to look at the whole picture. There are many things I'm still learning and as Erik and yourself pointed out, what is good for bitcoin is good for bitcoin, so I won't argue about it. What I argue about though is that I haven't seen the effects of it. All I know is that if my bitcoins were 'worth' $1 or $10, I'd still spend them just the same. So maybe I should just clarify by not saying speculation is wrong, but that people basing their involvement in Bitcoin based off of speculation doesn't make sense to me. |
|
|
|
I love how Zhou has placed the "Buy" button next to the Ask price in the instant execution window to encouraged noobs to make their BTC buys at the Ask resulting in an immediate loss on the spread to the buyer and an immediate profit for Bitcoinica.
Yea he's got himself a nice a little business. To open a position, you lose the spread (~1%) not just once, but as many times over as your leverage. So each time you open a position at five to one leverage you're basically giving him 5% of your deposit, and at ten to one its 10%. Bitcoinica daytraders would more than likely be seeing their accounts dwindling if this wasn't such a strong uptrend. Even as it is, for my risk profile its better to just hold my coin for longer-run gains and sell on mtgox (or any other real exchange). I'm not subject to a zhoutonging at every whim of the market, and I won't have to give away my (still fantastic) gains 5x over on those rare occasions when I will want to reduce my risk. Short-term traders just don't seem to realize how much your gains multiply themselves when you aren't hovering over the sell button and biting your nails during a monster fucking bull run. You just have to let them run. When you trade short-term all you're doing is giving away your gains to sophisticated market makers. You still make money, but they don't multiply when you do that. Its all in good fun though. Not like any of us here are folks desperate enough to bet more than we can afford to lose, right? CAN ANYONE LOAN ME 3000BTC I NEED THIS MAN IM SO CLOSE OHNORS ITS GOING DOWN FFFUUUUUUUU |
|
|
|
|
Am I the only one here that thinks this entire thing will end badly?
|
|
|
|
Those already producing, keep up the good work. Those interested only in consuming, thanks for sharing your wealth. Those interested in speculating the exchange rate of bitcoins to USD please understand to the producers in bitcoin you are about as useful as Atlas. The sooner you cash out and go on to the next 'big scheme', the sooner the rest of us actually using bitcoin can have some stability. Bitcoin speculators are no different than the 1%.
P.S. feel free to edumacate me Erik ^_^
I've been summoned! Matthew your basic sentiment is excellent, and as btc enthusiasts we should all strive to participate in the btc economy. The more Bitcoin is used, the stronger it gets. However, I strongly disagree with your antagonism toward "speculators" and those who buy Bitcoins merely to hold them. Hoarders of coins, or those who buy them to speculate on future appreciation, are risking their own capital to bring value from the future to the present. Those of us who believe in Bitcoin know that if it succeeds, the price will necessarily be far higher than today, as a massive economy uses it around the world. Speculators offer the crucial service of recognizing that future value and risking their capital to bring a portion of it into the present. What benefits does that give Bitcoin World? Many. Primarily, it delivers exchange value to those holding bitcoins currently. It provides capital for those who use bitcoins to start new businesses. It demonstrates that people believe in the system, and are willing to risk their own wealth on it - which says much more than any forum post could. A speculator who risks $100,000 on BTC gets no promise of any return. He may lose everything. But he sees a valuable system, before the world recognizes it, and he stakes his money on that observation. His $100,000 is traded to those in the Bitcoin community who need the dollars instead of the coins. To the extent that money is traded to Bitcoin enthusiasts and entrepreneurs, it becomes the seed capital from which all these endeavors are able to take place. The horder of bitcoins enriches the community with wealth - a portion of which will inevitably be spent building new systems from which Bitcoin gains strength. Anyone who trades within the bitcoin economy - regardless of whether its for a good, a service, or another currency - enriches the person with whom he trades. The buyer of Bitcoin enriches the seller of Bitcoin, perpetuating the price signal to other market participants that Bitcoins are valued and demanded. Case in point: I'm working on a new project and needed to buy a VPS a few days ago. Due to recent price appreciation in my BTC holdings, it was very affordable and I was able to purchase it earlier than I would have if the btc price was lower. By holding btc, I was made wealthier by others who sought to hold it, and as a result my Bitcoin project is progressing faster. The greedy speculator, unintentionally, just helped build the Bitcoin economy vis a vis my VPS purchase. The horders and the speculators bring the future value of Bitcoin into the present. They raise the market price above what it would otherwise be, and in so doing, they enrich the community and advance its cause. It is another beautiful example of Adam Smith's Invisible Hand - for the speculator need only be self-interested for this to work. Continue to cheer the merchants and developers... but also cheer the speculators, investors, and hoarders. It is the interaction between all these parties which advances the Bitcoin economy. What you say sounds lovely, but I still see it as a bunch of people dumping money into bitcoin and a bunch of other people cashing out for profit. My point was, although it seems your points are quite valid, they only apply if people are using bitcoin for more than a pump and dump. Who is using bitcoin for more than just speculative profiteering? I am personally not seeing it yet. What I'm seeing is one newbie coming in, dumping money, other people waiting for the price to increase cashing out, then the market settling until the next new investor comes along to which the previous investors just cash out on. Endless cycle until people start actually using bitcoin. I don't see speculating and dropping large amounts of money into the market as helping anyone in bitcoin. It helps people still using USD of course! If 100 people use bitcoin and each invest im each other, buying from each other in bitcoins only, selling to each other in bitcoins only, isn't thst actually healthier? What am I missing here? |
|
|
|
|
@OP: don't let me get you sidetracked from your business too much, but why does your website say you've been in business 5 years and yet your domain is only 6 months old? I'm sure there is a perfectly good explanation but as your 'About us' page is under construction, your site is an OpenCart page with a free theme (e.g. Not much invested into your business) and your registration information is hidden giving only a potentially bogus residential address in London, I can't say it nevessarily helps build any trust on the side of the consumer.
Keep up the good work (even though I detest smoking, I respect businesses that start from nothing and find success)!
|
|
|
|
I'd imagine there are many people hoarding bitcoins because the are interested in saving money (a healthy practice) and more or less an equal amount of people hoarding them because they don't actually need them and to those people bitcoin is nothing more than an investment vehicle.
Still, there are realists like myself who recognize bitcoin as a young utility with potential, but potential that is only truly realized through regular use.
What I mean is that saving and investing are also (legitimate and rational) ways to use Bitcoin (or gold). Possibly, but I'm not educated in ecenomics enough to see selfish profiteering and saving as supporting society. Assassinations, porn and Silk Road are also legitimate uses for bitcoin but depending your politics and religion, it's also potentially bad for society. I don't see how someone buying a million bitcoins low and selling a million bitcoins high helps anyone long term other then the greedy person doing the buying and selling. What if a super rich person went to a small village and started spending lots of money and then suddenly left without notice. Do you think that would do anything but screw up their existing economy? |
|
|
|
I spent 100 BTC over the past week on digital products and services. I paid my dues to a designer, a programmer, and sent BTC to some friends in exchange for them purchasing something with paypal that I can't access in Korea. I'd imagine there are many people hoarding bitcoins because the are interested in saving money (a healthy practice) and more or less an equal amount of people hoarding them because they don't actually need them and to those people bitcoin is nothing more than an investment vehicle. Still, there are realists like myself who recognize bitcoin as a young utility with potential, but potential that is only truly realized through regular use. I'm far from rich and I certainly do my share of producing (I am now either owner or equity holder in quite a few bitcoin related businesses and have no other "job"... Having the time of my life too!), but equally I spend as a consumer does and I spend in effort to produce more (paying salaries, buying equipment, paying fees, etc.) Ironically, although I'm often both the most misunderstood person and the biggest troll in the bitcoin community, myself and the people like me are who actually make bitcoin work. People like me actually need bitcoin for what it's used for. Speculating is for investors. Exchanging is for consumers. When will bitcoiners start to realize that they are what backs bitcoin? When will you wake up and start being a producer too? They may be few or far in between, but If anyone out there is truly torn about not being a producer and wants to step up but isn't quite sure what they can do or what skills they have or maybe even wanting to start a business but not sure about it, I welcome them to contact anyone in the DCAO for assistance, myself included. Those already producing, keep up the good work. Those interested only in consuming, thanks for sharing your wealth. Those interested in speculating the exchange rate of bitcoins to USD please understand to the producers in bitcoin you are about as useful as Atlas. The sooner you cash out and go on to the next 'big scheme', the sooner the rest of us actually using bitcoin can have some stability. Bitcoin speculators are no different than the 1%. P.S. feel free to edumacate me Erik ^_^ |
|
|
|
Regulators taking an interest in bit coin is something that should be welcomed. Any currency will always have a number of enquiries into it. It's a sign that it's growing up.
1+. Beat me to it. |
|
|
|
|
This domain only has one purpose in my opinion.
Videos of casascius coins rubbing up against each other, being inserted into holes, and then pooped out.
|
|
|
|
|
Didn't Theymos himself say that he learned about bitcoin first from 4chan?
|
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
