Do you actually USE Bitcoin? Or does it use you?

[niko]

Folks, call me stupid and/or hyperfocused - all this time I was playing with Bitcoin, mining, buying high and selling low, getting genuinely excited about all the possibilities that Bitcoin seems to offer, pondering over questions that it opens, and dreaming up some distant future full of flowers and p2p transactions free of debt...   But I have a life, too, and part of that life for the past few years has been this routine of monthly exchange of my hard-earned Canadian dollars into US dollars that I send to a US bank: I often spend money in the US, online and offline. I never connected the dots until now.

Bitcoinless options are (1) a cumbersome and preposterously expensive currency exchange with an international wire transfer, or (2) exchanging currency, buying a USD draft (or "certified cheque") at my Canadian bank, and mailing this piece of paper to my US bank (credit union, to be precise), then waiting for a week hoping it doesn't get lost before it's deposited.

I'm sure you all see where this is going: I just walk across the street to the bank and deposit CAD cash into CAVIRTEX account (no fee); this is instantaneously available for purchasing Bitcoins; I send those coins to MtGox, sell them, and withdraw via Dwolla into my US bank (25 cents worth of fees). Ends up being ways cheaper and faster than what I've been doing this whole time.

In this moment of epiphany, I realize that my relationship with Bitcoin has evolved over the past year from Platonic, to a wet dream, and finally tonight to a fulfilling, full-fledged affair full of steamy quickies, and - who knows? - maybe an occasional multisig transaction if we feel like.


 

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[Stephen Gornick]

I just walk across the street to the bank and deposit CAD cash into CAVIRTEX account (no fee); this is instantaneously available for purchasing Bitcoins; I send those coins to MtGox, sell them, and withdraw via Dwolla into my US bank (25 cents worth of fees).

Just out of curiousity, are you U.S. living in Canada?  If not, how does this impact you?
 - http://help.dwolla.com/customer/portal/articles/87276-can-i-use-dwolla-outside-the-u-s-

[Sannyasi]

Do you actually USE fiat money? Or does it USE you?...... This is the real question.


 Gotta love controlled slavery

[niko]

I just walk across the street to the bank and deposit CAD cash into CAVIRTEX account (no fee); this is instantaneously available for purchasing Bitcoins; I send those coins to MtGox, sell them, and withdraw via Dwolla into my US bank (25 cents worth of fees).

Just out of curiousity, are you U.S. living in Canada?  If not, how does this impact you?
 - http://help.dwolla.com/customer/portal/articles/87276-can-i-use-dwolla-outside-the-u-s-

I currently live in Canada. I only use Dwolla to withdraw USD from the exchange into a US bank account.

[majamalu]

Do you actually USE gold? Or does it USE you?

[niko]

Do you actually USE gold? Or does it USE you?

As a matter of fact, I use gold to make stuff. Nanotechnology research.

[majamalu]

In this environment, those who hoard (those who save, to be precise) are not Platonic, they are sane.

[majamalu]

Do you actually USE gold? Or does it USE you?

As a matter of fact, I use gold to make stuff. Nanotechnology research.

I use gold as a means to save, and to protect my purchasing power. I am 100% Aristotelian.

[niko]

In this environment, those who hoard (those who save, to be precise) are not Platonic, they are sane.

I'd say hoarding Bitcoin today is more of a wet dream than sanity. The dream may or may not come true, but wishful thinking is not the same as sanity. Don't get me wrong - I save some, too, but the point of this thread was to discuss how much we use Bitcoin technology, and in what way. Right here and right now.

[majamalu]

In this environment, those who hoard (those who save, to be precise) are not Platonic, they are sane.

I'd say hoarding Bitcoin today is more of a wet dream than sanity. The dream may or may not come true, but wishful thinking is not the same as sanity. Don't get me wrong - I save some, too, but the point of this thread was to discuss how much we use Bitcoin technology, and in what way. Right here and right now.

What about hoarding Bitcoin in 2010? Was it a wet dream?

[niko]

In this environment, those who hoard (those who save, to be precise) are not Platonic, they are sane.

I'd say hoarding Bitcoin today is more of a wet dream than sanity. The dream may or may not come true, but wishful thinking is not the same as sanity. Don't get me wrong - I save some, too, but the point of this thread was to discuss how much we use Bitcoin technology, and in what way. Right here and right now.

What about hoarding Bitcoin in 2010? Was it a wet dream?

Absolutely, and if you sold in 2011, your dream came true. For some time, anyway.

[pazor]

my wife whould say: bitcoin does use me

[Matthew N. Wright]

I spent 100 BTC over the past week on digital products and services. I paid my dues to a designer, a programmer, and sent BTC to some friends in exchange for them purchasing something with paypal that I can't access in Korea.

I'd imagine there are many people hoarding bitcoins because the are interested in saving money (a healthy practice) and more or less an equal amount of people hoarding them because they don't actually need them and to those people bitcoin is nothing more than an investment vehicle.

Still, there are realists like myself who recognize bitcoin as a young utility with potential, but potential that is only truly realized through regular use. I'm far from rich and I certainly do my share of producing (I am now either owner or equity holder in quite a few bitcoin related businesses and have no other "job"... Having the time of my life too!), but equally I spend as a consumer does and I spend in effort to produce more (paying salaries, buying equipment, paying fees, etc.)

Ironically, although I'm often both the most misunderstood person and the biggest troll in the bitcoin community, myself and the people like me are who actually make bitcoin work. People like me actually need bitcoin for what it's used for. Speculating is for investors. Exchanging is for consumers. When will bitcoiners start to realize that they are what backs bitcoin? When will you wake up and start being a producer too?

They may be few or far in between, but If anyone out there is truly torn about not being a producer and wants to step up but isn't quite sure what they can do or what skills they have or maybe even wanting to start a business but not sure about it, I welcome them to contact anyone in the DCAO for assistance, myself included.

Those already producing, keep up the good work. Those interested only in consuming, thanks for sharing your wealth. Those interested in speculating the exchange rate of bitcoins to USD please understand to the producers in bitcoin you are about as useful as Atlas. The sooner you cash out and go on to the next 'big scheme', the sooner the rest of us actually using bitcoin can have some stability. Bitcoin speculators are no different than the 1%.

P.S. feel free to edumacate me Erik ^_^

[majamalu]

I'd imagine there are many people hoarding bitcoins because the are interested in saving money (a healthy practice) and more or less an equal amount of people hoarding them because they don't actually need them and to those people bitcoin is nothing more than an investment vehicle.

Still, there are realists like myself who recognize bitcoin as a young utility with potential, but potential that is only truly realized through regular use.

What I mean is that saving and investing are also (legitimate and rational) ways to use Bitcoin (or gold).

[majamalu]

In this environment, those who hoard (those who save, to be precise) are not Platonic, they are sane.

I'd say hoarding Bitcoin today is more of a wet dream than sanity. The dream may or may not come true, but wishful thinking is not the same as sanity. Don't get me wrong - I save some, too, but the point of this thread was to discuss how much we use Bitcoin technology, and in what way. Right here and right now.

What about hoarding Bitcoin in 2010? Was it a wet dream?

Absolutely, and if you sold in 2011, your dream came true. For some time, anyway.

In that case, let's keep dreaming: there was nothing more profitable in 2010-2011.

[Matthew N. Wright]

I'd imagine there are many people hoarding bitcoins because the are interested in saving money (a healthy practice) and more or less an equal amount of people hoarding them because they don't actually need them and to those people bitcoin is nothing more than an investment vehicle.

Still, there are realists like myself who recognize bitcoin as a young utility with potential, but potential that is only truly realized through regular use.

What I mean is that saving and investing are also (legitimate and rational) ways to use Bitcoin (or gold).

Possibly, but I'm not educated in ecenomics enough to see selfish profiteering and saving as supporting society. Assassinations, porn and Silk Road are also legitimate uses for bitcoin but depending your politics and religion, it's also potentially bad for society.

I don't see how someone buying a million bitcoins low and selling a million bitcoins high helps anyone long term other then the greedy person doing the buying and selling. What if a super rich person went to a small village and started spending lots of money and then suddenly left without notice. Do you think that would do anything but screw up their existing economy?

[majamalu]

I'd imagine there are many people hoarding bitcoins because the are interested in saving money (a healthy practice) and more or less an equal amount of people hoarding them because they don't actually need them and to those people bitcoin is nothing more than an investment vehicle.

Still, there are realists like myself who recognize bitcoin as a young utility with potential, but potential that is only truly realized through regular use.

What I mean is that saving and investing are also (legitimate and rational) ways to use Bitcoin (or gold).

Possibly, but I'm not educated in ecenomics enough to see selfish profiteering and saving as supporting society. Assassinations, porn and Silk Road are also legitimate uses for bitcoin but depending your politics and religion, it's also potentially bad for society.

How could assassination be legitimate? Profiteering and saving are not only legitimate, they are the reason why most of the people are not starving. A society in which capital can not be formed only supports a subsistence living.

[majamalu]

I don't see how someone buying a million bitcoins low and selling a million bitcoins high helps anyone long term other then the greedy person doing the buying and selling.

It is not possible to buy a million bitcoins low, mainly due to speculation against you.

[evoorhees]

Those already producing, keep up the good work. Those interested only in consuming, thanks for sharing your wealth. Those interested in speculating the exchange rate of bitcoins to USD please understand to the producers in bitcoin you are about as useful as Atlas. The sooner you cash out and go on to the next 'big scheme', the sooner the rest of us actually using bitcoin can have some stability. Bitcoin speculators are no different than the 1%.

P.S. feel free to edumacate me Erik ^_^

I've been summoned!

Matthew your basic sentiment is excellent, and as btc enthusiasts we should all strive to participate in the btc economy. The more Bitcoin is used, the stronger it gets.

However, I strongly disagree with your antagonism toward "speculators" and those who buy Bitcoins merely to hold them. Hoarders of coins, or those who buy them to speculate on future appreciation, are risking their own capital to bring value from the future to the present. Those of us who believe in Bitcoin know that if it succeeds, the price will necessarily be far higher than today, as a massive economy uses it around the world. Speculators offer the crucial service of recognizing that future value and risking their capital to bring a portion of it into the present.

What benefits does that give Bitcoin World? Many. Primarily, it delivers exchange value to those holding bitcoins currently. It provides capital for those who use bitcoins to start new businesses. It demonstrates that people believe in the system, and are willing to risk their own wealth on it - which says much more than any forum post could.

A speculator who risks $100,000 on BTC gets no promise of any return. He may lose everything. But he sees a valuable system, before the world recognizes it, and he stakes his money on that observation. His $100,000 is traded to those in the Bitcoin community who need the dollars instead of the coins. To the extent that money is traded to Bitcoin enthusiasts and entrepreneurs, it becomes the seed capital from which all these endeavors are able to take place. The horder of bitcoins enriches the community with wealth - a portion of which will inevitably be spent building new systems from which Bitcoin gains strength.

Anyone who trades within the bitcoin economy - regardless of whether its for a good, a service, or another currency - enriches the person with whom he trades. The buyer of Bitcoin enriches the seller of Bitcoin, perpetuating the price signal to other market participants that Bitcoins are valued and demanded.

Case in point: I'm working on a new project and needed to buy a VPS a few days ago. Due to recent price appreciation in my BTC holdings, it was very affordable and I was able to purchase it earlier than I would have if the btc price was lower. By holding btc, I was made wealthier by others who sought to hold it, and as a result my Bitcoin project is progressing faster. The greedy speculator, unintentionally, just helped build the Bitcoin economy vis a vis my VPS purchase.

The horders and the speculators bring the future value of Bitcoin into the present. They raise the market price above what it would otherwise be, and in so doing, they enrich the community and advance its cause. It is another beautiful example of Adam Smith's Invisible Hand - for the speculator need only be self-interested for this to work.

Continue to cheer the merchants and developers... but also cheer the speculators, investors, and hoarders. It is the interaction between all these parties which advances the Bitcoin economy.

[majamalu]

Those already producing, keep up the good work. Those interested only in consuming, thanks for sharing your wealth. Those interested in speculating the exchange rate of bitcoins to USD please understand to the producers in bitcoin you are about as useful as Atlas. The sooner you cash out and go on to the next 'big scheme', the sooner the rest of us actually using bitcoin can have some stability. Bitcoin speculators are no different than the 1%.

P.S. feel free to edumacate me Erik ^_^

I've been summoned!

Matthew your basic sentiment is excellent, and as btc enthusiasts we should all strive to participate in the btc economy. The more Bitcoin is used, the stronger it gets.

However, I strongly disagree with your antagonism toward "speculators" and those who buy Bitcoins merely to hold them. Hoarders of coins, or those who buy them to speculate on future appreciation, are risking their own capital to bring value from the future to the present. Those of us who believe in Bitcoin know that if it succeeds, the price will necessarily be far higher than today, as a massive economy uses it around the world. Speculators offer the crucial service of recognizing that future value and risking their capital to bring a portion of it into the present.

What benefits does that give Bitcoin World? Many. Primarily, it delivers exchange value to those holding bitcoins currently. It provides capital for those who use bitcoins to start new businesses. It demonstrates that people believe in the system, and are willing to risk their own wealth on it - which says much more than any forum post could.

A speculator who risks $100,000 on BTC gets no promise of any return. He may lose everything. But he sees a valuable system, before the world recognizes it, and he stakes his money on that observation. His $100,000 is traded to those in the Bitcoin community who need the dollars instead of the coins. To the extent that money is traded to Bitcoin enthusiasts and entrepreneurs, it becomes the seed capital from which all these endeavors are able to take place. The horder of bitcoins enriches the community with wealth - a portion of which will inevitably be spent building new systems from which Bitcoin gains strength.

Anyone who trades within the bitcoin economy - regardless of whether its for a good, a service, or another currency - enriches the person with whom he trades. The buyer of Bitcoin enriches the seller of Bitcoin, perpetuating the price signal to other market participants that Bitcoins are valued and demanded.

Case in point: I'm working on a new project and needed to buy a VPS a few days ago. Due to recent price appreciation in my BTC holdings, it was very affordable and I was able to purchase it earlier than I would have if the btc price was lower. By holding btc, I was made wealthier by others who sought to hold it, and as a result my Bitcoin project is progressing faster. The greedy speculator, unintentionally, just helped build the Bitcoin economy vis a vis my VPS purchase.

The horders and the speculators bring the future value of Bitcoin into the present. They raise the market price above what it would otherwise be, and in so doing, they enrich the community and advance its cause. It is another beautiful example of Adam Smith's Invisible Hand - for the speculator need only be self-interested for this to work.

Continue to cheer the merchants and developers... but also cheer the speculators, investors, and hoarders. It is the interaction between all these parties which advances the Bitcoin economy.

This is why I voted for you as the best forum member.