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6381  Other / Politics & Society / Re: A Way To Be Free - Robert LeFevre on: May 31, 2012, 05:23:30 PM
I grew up in an environment where people were being snatched off the street and killed for having the wrong religion so I believe allowing the bad guys to initiate force is bad.  We know that if you don't have police and an army in control of your street, bad stuff will happen.  Its immoral to allow that.
You can't legitimately divide human beings into two categories and say it's immoral for the "bad guys" to initiate force while at the same time it's virtuous for the "good guys" to initiate force.

What's wrong for one person is wrong for everybody.
6382  Other / Politics & Society / Re: A Way To Be Free - Robert LeFevre on: May 31, 2012, 04:21:21 PM
What you need to do is offer something better.
Not at all.

The abolitionists declared that slavery must be ended because the ownership of human beings is immoral. Figuring out a better way of handling agricultural labor requirements was not a prerequisite for abolishing slavery.

Governing people via the implicit or explicit threat of violence is immoral therefore people should find other ways of solving their problems.
6383  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin reaching critical mass in New Hampshire? on: May 31, 2012, 05:11:55 AM
I'm already paying some of my over seas suppliers in Bitcoin.
That is very good news. I haven't been following the forums diligently enough to catch that before.

Along with some of the other announcements over the last week it looks like all the pieces are coming together. I wonder if more international trade is being denominated in Bitcoins now than in gold... Next stop, the Dollar?
6384  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2012-05-14 EtsyLabs/KennethBromberg - Bitcoin is NOT a Currency (video) on: May 31, 2012, 04:22:37 AM
Sure, even strong encryption like 256-bit AES or Swordfish which meets Department of Defense standards and is used by TrueCrypt can be broken but it requires thousands of dollars worth of resources and lots of time.
Citation needed
6385  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Decline in listening hosts on: May 31, 2012, 03:48:40 AM
Thanks Gavin. Nice to know you also think that relatively few ddos-protected backbone nodes can provide a high degree of resistance to attack.
Sure, Bitcoin is an experiment, but some of us really want it to succeed since it has potential to cchange the world in a good way.
I want Bitcoin to change the world too but I don't really understand how insulting the lead developer by implying he doesn't care if the project succeeds or not gets us closer to that goal.

Maybe that is the right approach to take and I'm just not seeing how it's beneficial to the project as a whole so can you explain it to me? I'll be more than happy join in and dump my emotional baggage all over the dev team if you can show me how that will make the project more successful.
6386  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin reaching critical mass in New Hampshire? on: May 31, 2012, 03:35:13 AM
Bitcoin's popularity is already exploding within the libertarian free state project.
One of my personal indicators that I'm looking for as evidence of critical mass is when you announce that you are paying your overseas suppliers in Bitcoins.
6387  Other / Off-topic / Re: Any fish lovers in here? on: May 30, 2012, 12:51:37 AM
it was self contained. he had a pump for recirculation, but otherwise it was self balancing. Chicken and fish poop fed the Duckweed and some other hydroponic crops, duckweed fed the tilapia, tilapia fed guys family of 3. Ill see if I can't find the clip for you.
I can believe that he managed to balance the system using the solar energy that the duckweed obtains and using an external input in the form of chicken feed but I don't believe the family of three was obtaining a significant fraction of their daily calories on a sustained basis from the amount of tilapia that can be grown in a residential swimming pool that way.
6388  Other / Off-topic / Re: Any fish lovers in here? on: May 30, 2012, 12:37:30 AM
I don't particularly like catching, looking at, or eating fish but I've seriously considered setting up a backyard aquaponics system as part of an attempt at permaculture.

So far my research has been that it's not particularly economical.

IT is if you already have an in ground pool. (guy on doomsday preppers was raising chickens, duckweed, and tilapia in his pool)
How many external inputs was he using to make the system work?
6389  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why is bitcoin now so absurdly stable when priced in USD? on: May 30, 2012, 12:33:13 AM
In order to fix this problem we need more entrepreneurs, engineers and developers (real work), and less economists, speculators and gamblers (zero-sum game).
Bit-Pay says that the transaction volume they are processing has tripled each month for the last three months. They wouldn't be able to grow like that if the problem you mention wasn't already being fixed.
6390  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2012-05-14 EtsyLabs/KennethBromberg - Bitcoin is NOT a Currency (video) on: May 29, 2012, 09:55:44 PM
Ultimately, you don't need them.  But having smart money invested and talking positive about Bitcoins, makes it more accepted and harder for real hardcore regulation.  We really to take the reputation of BTC very serious or it is going to continue to get this label of unsuitability.   Once you can label something negatively, it makes it easier to conquer because the average person won't give a care when they try to hamper operations. 

You have to realize what direction the wind is blowing and that direction is more tracking and control.  This is in exact contradiction of this policy. 
I agree that the wind in blowing that way in the developed countries but I don't think it has the same implications you do. First of all as the developed countries enact more strict capital controls it makes the use of Bitcoin more economically advantageous. Secondly most of the growth potential for Bitcoin use is in the developing world, where this kind of tracking and control doesn't exist. Clamping down in the US, for example, won't do anything to reduce Bitcoin's potential in Somalia or for Chinese-Russian trade.
6391  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2012-05-14 EtsyLabs/KennethBromberg - Bitcoin is NOT a Currency (video) on: May 29, 2012, 08:48:36 PM
Well one of the biggest and vaild complaint Mr. Bromberg had is that there is no floor under Bitcoin which institutional investors can depend on so they could make long-term investments in Bitcoin.
Good. Bitcoin will be a far better tool for people who want to use it to facilitate the sale of products and services if institutional investors and other speculators stay away from it.

Bitcoin allows a company that delivers services over the internet to accept payments from any country in the world with no risk of fraud or chargebacks. If they use a service like Bitpay the merchant doesn't even need to worry about exchange rate fluctuations - he never sees the Bitcoins himself, just local currency deposited into his bank account. Bitcoin is just a tool that allows him to expand the market he is able to sell into to include countries which the traditional financial sector does not serve. Ultimately the commerce good and services that people want is what's important in the economy. It's up to the legacy financial sector to figure out how to add value to that or else become obsolete.

If the institutional investors want to get involved they should invest in individual companies that have a solid business plan and a good product/service, just like any other sound investment instead of just buying up currency.
6392  Other / Off-topic / Re: Any fish lovers in here? on: May 29, 2012, 08:14:13 PM
I don't particularly like catching, looking at, or eating fish but I've seriously considered setting up a backyard aquaponics system as part of an attempt at permaculture.

So far my research has been that it's not particularly economical.
6393  Other / Politics & Society / Re: A Way To Be Free - Robert LeFevre on: May 29, 2012, 05:13:17 PM
Um, the logic failure you make is that you say the state isn't perfect so we must do without its benefits.
I'm just applying the same standard you use to criticize a stateless society. You condemn freedom because it isn't perfect yet tolerate all the imperfections of the state as being irrelevant.

I compare the 2 and say that a state has less imperfections.  There is no good system - we will always be talking about the least bad.  But anarchy is way worse in that there is no private property, no rule of law and no defence system.

Your parable suggest you skipped reading that post.
I stopped reading at that point because you put forward a speculative hypothesis as fact without providing a methodology for testing the hypothesis.

Based on your history of moving goal posts and other forms of sophism I don't expect that you'll provide such a methodology or will agree to change your position should your hypothesis be falsified so I'm not interested in continuing the debate. I posted the parable for the benefit of other people reading the thread.
6394  Other / Off-topic / Re: Hunting Atlas on: May 29, 2012, 04:50:06 PM
Can someone fill me in on the Atlas story? I remember there was a poster by that name in the early parts of 2011 but was away from the forums for a while and missed whatever drama played out after that.
6395  Other / Politics & Society / Re: A Way To Be Free - Robert LeFevre on: May 29, 2012, 04:46:21 PM
Quote
I’d like you to imagine a man standing in the middle of a large meadow. You spend some time watching this man, and it doesn’t take you very long to notice that he paces back and forth in a small square, about 10 feet on either side. That’s all. Just 10 feet.

After a few hours of watching him do this, you walk up to him. When you reach forward to shake his hand, however, your fingers are burned by a strong electrical shock from an invisible barrier.

Startled – and hurt – you cry out. The man looks up.

“What’s the matter?” he asks.

“I just ran into this invisible wall which gave me a hell of a shock!” you cry.

He frowns. “I didn’t see anything.”

You blink. “Really? You’ve never heard or seen or felt this invisible barrier?”

He shakes his head slowly. “What invisible barrier?”

“The one that surrounds you – the one that keeps you penned in this little 10 foot square!”

“What little 10 foot square?” he demands. “There’s no little 10 foot square! I can go wherever the hell I want!”

“No you can’t!”

“Who the hell are you to tell me where I can and cannot go? I decide that!”

“I’m not telling you where you can and cannot go – I’m just telling you what you are actually doing!”

“What on earth are you talking about?”

“Well, I’ve been watching you for the past few hours, and you’re standing in the middle of this great big meadow, and yet all you do is pace back and forth 10 feet.”

“I can go anywhere I damn well please!” the man repeats angrily.

“You say that, but all you do is pace around and around in a little 10 foot square! If you can go anywhere you please, why don’t you just try taking one extra step?”

“I have no idea what you’re talking about,” he growls. “Now get the hell off my damn property!”

“Wait – I can show you!” You reach down and pick up some grass. You throw it towards the man. A few feet away from his face, the blades of grass burst into flame and evaporate. You do this several times, proving definitively that there is in fact an invisible force field that surrounds him, roughly 10 feet by 10 feet.

“Do you see?” you ask eagerly. “Do you see that you are in an invisible cage?”

“Get the hell off my property, you madman!” he cries, shaking with rage.

“But you must know that you are in an invisible cage,” you cry out. “You must know that, because you never try to go outside these walls. You must have at one time tried to break free of this cage, and were burned by the electric shock, which is why you never take more than a few steps before turning around! Don’t you see?”

He pulls out a gun, screams that he has a principle of shooting trespassers, and, quite sensibly, you run away.

This is the great paradox of attempting to teach people what they already know. Everybody claims complete freedom, but paces back and forth, trapped in a little square. Everyone is surrounded by the invisible cages of culture and mythology, and denies it completely. The evidence of these cages is very clear, because people always turn back just before they hit them. But then they deny that these cages exist.

Everybody acts as if they are perfectly free, and perfectly enslaved at the same time. Nobody admits to being in a prison, but everyone shuffles around in an invisible 10 x 10 cell.

In the same way, everyone tells you that they are free, but in fact everyone is trapped in little tiny cells of allowable conversation. Everybody tells you they love you, but strenuously avoids talking about what love is, or what about you they love.

Everyone tells you to be good, but they have no idea what goodness is – and will savage you for even having the temerity to ask the question.

Everybody talks about the truth, but the real truth is that nobody can talk about the truth – what it is, how it is defined, how it is verified, and its value.
6396  Other / Politics & Society / Re: A Way To Be Free - Robert LeFevre on: May 29, 2012, 04:01:40 PM
Um, the logic failure you make is that you say the state isn't perfect so we must do without its benefits.
I'm just applying the same standard you use to criticize a stateless society. You condemn freedom because it isn't perfect yet tolerate all the imperfections of the state as being irrelevant.
6397  Other / Politics & Society / Re: A Way To Be Free - Robert LeFevre on: May 29, 2012, 03:45:23 PM
The problem with Anarcho-capitalism is that it has no way to provide private property rights, justice or defence.

Without a system of legal title and a court system to protect it, you don't have property so your society will be very poor.  With a police and justice system, people will have to enforce their own version of justice; you are right that they will suffer consequences but the overall effect is that life is more arbitrary violence.
This is exactly what life is like with a state.

None of the western democracies allow for private property ownership of land. All land is rented from the state. Justice is only available for those that can afford it and certain classes of people are above the law entirely. In some countries your property can be seized at a whim by any uniformed thug who thinks it might have come from the proceeds of growing the wrong vegetables.

All of your criticisms of anarchy are merely describing what it's like to live under the rule of a state.
6398  Other / Politics & Society / Re: A Way To Be Free - Robert LeFevre on: May 29, 2012, 07:39:14 AM
Are you saying we are not perfect?  And that if we are not perfect, then we have to give up our lives in the most peaceful prosperous societies in history?

My car isn't perfect.  On your logic, I should walk barefoot everywhere.
I'm saying that our current societies are incredibly violent, but by social convention we all pretend not to see the violence and agree not to talk about it.

People who talk about the supposed horrors of a stateless society are engaging in psychological projection and are merely describing the features of the state system which are not politically correct to discuss openly.
6399  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2012-05-14 EtsyLabs/KennethBromberg - Bitcoin is NOT a Currency (video) on: May 29, 2012, 07:34:42 AM
This is really powerful stuff we are trying to make work here and because of its highly disruptive nature to the existing power-base, we need to be smarter than most.
It's disruptive to the existing power base but at this point in time that power base is imploding due to inevitable mathematical realities that have nothing to do with Bitcoin.

If we see the apparatchik taking notice of Bitcoin at this stage it will probably be in the form of them looking for a way to convert their ill-gotten gains into something that will last beyond the existence of the current paradigm.
6400  Other / Politics & Society / Re: A Way To Be Free - Robert LeFevre on: May 29, 2012, 07:27:15 AM
All states in EU, the US, Australia...
The people living in Iraq, owners and customers of Rawesome Foods, Michael Paxton, clients of MF Global, and Guantanamo detainees would disagree with your assertion, just to name a few.
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