Just careful people.
You know everyone is here saying things like "omg we gonna reach XXX$ soon". But lots of people say that all the time. And 99% of the time they're wrong.
Damn the number of people who said we gonna reach 1k$ before the end of the year...
A lot of people 'predict' stuff & make bold statements on the price buddy. Many know their prediction is unrealistic in the short term (both bulls & bears) but they try to make noobs buy in or sell to affect the market. Realistically not enough of the bitcoin market are even on here so no FUD or attempted price manipulation will ever work here but people certainly try. There are even paid shills & trolls who try to control price direction. The best thing to do is just ignore MOST people here & do what's right for you & your financial position & future. Agreed. That's why I closed everything at 450$, and I don't regret it ^.^ |
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They're not statistic i pull from my ass, they're a metaphoric illustration. Not just because there is a "%" it immediately becomes a statistic. What you're saying is nonsense because it doesn't apply to most people. You're talking about a "trust network", but that's for businesses and traders. Most people and users don't give a damn about a trust network for the only reason that they have no use of it. We mainly do punctual deals, without the idea of finding a good trading partner for the future. We just want to buy something we need right now, without the need of building a long term relationship! You keep escaping my example. I'm a newbie wanting to sell an s7 used miner, I want to sell it 1.5k$ and you want to buy it. What do you do without escrow? You believe in me? That's what most people do, punctual important transactions. And that's where we use escrow, I don't see how you can do it without. |
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I'm excited by the large amounts of shorts already in ready to be squeezed. Do these guys ever learn? It's probably the same people who got squeezed when the price was $330.
Just careful people. You know everyone is here saying things like "omg we gonna reach XXX$ soon". But lots of people say that all the time. And 99% of the time they're wrong. Damn the number of people who said we gonna reach 1k$ before the end of the year... |
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Bitcoin is a huge economy, so few chances it gets destroyed.
But it's also incredibly centralized (a pity when the main goal of the currency is to decentralize exchanges) by the need of sharp skills to do anything.
A few people own the few sites that control everything. I don't consider btc much safer than fiat, I would even say it's the contrary.
i wouldn't advise to invest in btc for long term, for the sole reason you can't predict what those few peoples will do. Imagine tomorrow Primedice and Yobit close taking all the money with them and the bitcoinsphere collapses xD
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b) You are eating sushi at a fancy restaurant in Tokyo when suddenly an eagles comes to pick you up. Summon the Narrou. (The Narrou is a kind of tricolored light emitting 4 feet tall organic alien lamp)
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You're right it was getting a bit off topic.
Lack of personal responsibility? Maybe we don't get the same definition but that's not what I would have said.
But let it get straight to the choice:
-You can do deals on one and one, without third party, but then you have tot rust completely your trading partner. Best solution, but you NEED to trust your partner.
-You can do deals with people you still don't know, involving a third party.
The third party question is not a question of denying personal responsibility, it's a question of limiting the risks. I want to make a deal with a newbie i never heard of. Sending him the money leads to 90% of scam. Taking an escrow and sending him the money leads to maybe 0.5% of scam.
I don't see lack of responsibility here, just pure logic.
And yes when you get scam by the escrow you go whining and trying to find your money back, the same way that when you take your car and get an accident you go whining and try to be repaid by the assurance. And if the assurance take your money and go, you'll try to bring it to the court.
In fact I don't understand why you're saying it's not normal no use escrow, it's just a logical safer way. Not perfect, but still safer.
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Civil engineer: Hey, Boss. Traffic on the bridge is increasing by 50% per month. Shouldn't we widen it?
Bureaucrat: Ha! That bridge has excess capacity. If traffic gets too high, we'll just increase the tolls. Most of those schmucks don't really need to go anywhere anyway.
Civil engineer: Do we know that for sure? What if there is an evacuation or something?
Bureaucrat: That bridge was intentionally designed with low capacity to prevent invasions! Widening it would be a dangerous departure from historic bridge operations.
Civil Engineer: Aren't bridges supposed to be used to facilitate travel?
Bureaucrat: Yes, but only the right sort of travel. That's for me to decide! If traffic gets too heavy, and tolls get too expensive, the people can use buses. Too many single passenger cars anyway.
Civil engineer: Do you own a bus company?
Bureaucrat: Purely coincidental! I'm just guarding against bridgebuilder centralization.
Civil engineer: I see. No conflict of interest there. What's the name of your company anyway, Busstream?
Bureaucrat: BridgestreamTM, Smartass.
Ahahahahah! That's so true it hurts xD |
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Wow, that is lots of hate from greens in such few posts  But still, he's right you know? What you're saying is "we can't say it's humans, maybe it's not us if we got 20° above normal". Of course we can't know, but it doesn't matter. It's not a question of being sure, it's a question of what we can assume. With your reasoning I could dump nuclear waste in your garden (i mean literally) and when you got cancer I'd say "What? You're sure it's nuclear fault? Maybe it's because you're not healthy enough!" We could do anything. I could shoot you twice then say "Nah, I believe I just saved his life, if I hadn't shot him twice he'd have died from heart attack, only the adrenaline from the shot made him survive." So "we're not sure" is not an argument guys. |
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It's so sad that people would abuse the trust in the community for such little effort and reward. There are people who are legitimately invested in the bitcoin community and monetary values don't matter these individuals. I hope in the future, honest people who want to be involved with bitcoin, not willing to sell out for a few thousands dollars will be involved here. Use your judgement when conducting transactions. I hope something like this never happens again.
So little effort and reward? 10k$ is little reward? ^^ Not saying it's good, but can't say it's just a little thing, was probably worth it. Damn the guy left with 25btc, it's quite a huge amount! Lots of people steal, hurt or even kill for far much less! |
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Or, you know, actually know your trading partners well enough to know when something is not right...
Unbelievable how quickly people forget that Bitcoin was designed to enable PERSON TO PERSON transactions. Then everyone demands it be like every other system with mommy and daddy telling you things will be ok, dictating to everyone what they can and can't do. Then we are back where we started. Take some personal responsibility.
This incident with Master-P never would have happened if you had not demanded someone else take responsibility for your personal liabilities. When you do this you are basically saying that you have no faith in your own ability to make sound judgements and do research, and or you are too lazy. Then you wag your finger at everyone else when things don't work out. You people need to look in the mirror.
So you trade only with persons you know IRL since at least 2 years? Person to person transactions, as you say, doesn't change the fact that you can be scammed, in any way. If I want to buy something, I have no guarantee whatsoever that it will be sent unless I know really well the seller and trust him. But to trust him, I need to have made at least a few deals with him. Trust is built, built on what? On successfull exchanges. And I don't see the link between "your own ability to make sound judgements" and business trust. You're saying we should make researches on everyone we trade with? Fair enough, and how do you do when it's a first trade for someone? Imagine someone wanting to sell a 700$ worth miner, but he's not a legendary trusted member and never made a trade here, he's still a newbie. So how do you do your "own judgement" TECSHARE here? Or you tell him "nah bro, can't deal with you, wait for 2 or 3 years and when I'll know you better then maybe. Not saying escrow is perfect, but you can't say it's just because "people are too lazy to do there own research". |
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All you self-righteous assholes can suck a bag of dicks. Its real easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize others, but what have you done to help this community? I have been here since 2011, and I sure as fuck have paid for my attempts to point out corruption around here (even when staff are involved), but none of you self-righteous slits were there then backing me up were you? I don't owe you or this community anything, so you can just get in line with the rest to go fuck yourself with your judgements and condemnations. Maybe next time I will just keep it to myself and you idiots can scour the net for his details yourself.
(P.S. Hey geniuses, releasing some ones DOX means you end any leverage you have over a scammer. I am giving him an opportunity to make this right and return the coins before doxing him, but keep judging people morally, it will take you places.)
point taken, but i only said i didnt condone it, nothing more, nothing less. thats just my opinion. I don't normally condone it either, but I am a firm believer in common law justice. Once you break the laws of society you have no more rights by the community than an animal does. IMO this is the only way to remind those that would harm others how near they are to being harmed themselves, and that they are protected only by that paper thin concept of civil society, and thus need to learn to protect it rather than exploit it lest it be revoked and they live as outcasts, open game for anyone to freely abuse. A true American! Trump would be proud of you! It gives such a positive image of the community. I really feel at home! And yet people wonder why btc is not on the late adoption part? Well maybe the community is a bit responsible no? No law, no trust... And when something goes wrong you all go on a rampage, digging up personal data for... For what? Finding him IRL and beat him up? Yeah sure! i feel so safe with all of you guys <3 |
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From what I read I don't understand you guys.
If everything is true, previous Master-P dox might be released and... So what?
You're going on a vengeful crusade against him? Gonna threaten him and all? You do realize that none of your threats are going to make your btc back.
I don't see why you're threatening Master-P (the old one), as he has no longer the funds. He's a scammer but it won't help you in any way to know where he lives is it?
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The "invisible hand" as commonly misunderstood would only work if there weren't asymmetric information nor externalities.
Furthermore in the past, when capitalists would observe "God, Fatherland, Family", laissez-faire capitalism had natural boundaries which are absent today and the tragedy of the commons is a reminder of the need for limits.
The market clears information asymmetries and externalities. You are confusing neoclassical economics with real economics. Oh my god you just can't say this it's too stupid You're whether trolling or plain stupid. As if all actors had all the same information and there was no externalities xD I think I am way more smarter than you. And I am not saying what you think I am saying. Externalities and informational asymmetry only exist regarding an abstract world of market perfection. They are the by-product of an abstract and irrealistic theory. The real market (as opposed to the perfect one, which is a misguided mental construction) handle those two "problems" better than any other mechanism. In the most renowned European languages the concrete meaning of "to produce" is to make, manufacture, fabricate things and it is a concept which evolved from agriculture: plants pro-duce, bring forth, bear fruit. Nowadays in most countries the service sector make up more than the half of the GDP, so you mean that more than half of the world production is not real "production". It's best to talk about economics by using the meaning of words which pertains to this discipline. We mean that the word production leads to something that actualy produce something and not just arbitrary value creation such as what you're reffering to  |
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Say what you want about the morality of traders. If Robinhood tax passes, it'll result in less tax revenue and btc will go sub 200 because it's mostly held up by traders riding the choo choo train, plus the rest of the economy would be dropping around it. I really don't think it would get through congress though.
That's sure it won't. I mean why would a law made to make it less easy for big companies to take the money from people pass in the USA? This is america after all, USA have the same inequality in wealth than the Quatar, the first developed country in term of repartition of wealth. But hey, why doing anything about it? |
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Maybe the word "produce" is not the same for you than for me, but for the Oxford dictionnary it is: Make or manufacture from components or raw materials.
So teachers, singers and developpers don't produce anything? The definition of the Oxford dictionnary is Marxist (I am serious, Marx thought that production implies a kind of physicality, which every body nowadays -except you and the Oxford dictionary guys- knows is a totally backward way of seeing things). Oh sorry. I'm really sorry I used precise words to talk about precise things. My apologies I'll stop talking. I bid you all a goodnight  Teachers don't produce anything? I bet such a precise guy as you will have no problem answering that question. I said I wouldn't answer but I have 3 minutes last so I'll correct your lack of vocabulary and logical reasoning. No teachers don't produce anything. A baker produce something, teachers don't. They have an influence on the development of individuals, I see no concept of production here. Otherwise the word is perfectly useless! We're all producing things you know with your approximate definition? Production means transforming physical goods in order to create another one (normally) of higher value. It doesn't mean teachers are useless but it does mean it's incredibly hard to evaluate their impact and their performance. Whereas it's rather easy to measure to quantity and quality of bread the baker produced. So no I'm not the one who "doesn't even know what i don't know" sir. |
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Maybe the word "produce" is not the same for you than for me, but for the Oxford dictionnary it is: Make or manufacture from components or raw materials.
So teachers, singers and developpers don't produce anything? The definition of the Oxford dictionnary is Marxist (I am serious, Marx thought that production implies a kind of physicality, which every body nowadays -except you and the Oxford dictionary guys- knows is a totally backward way of seeing things). Oh sorry. I'm really sorry I used precise words to talk about precise things. My apologies I'll stop talking. I bid you all a goodnight |
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The "invisible hand" as commonly misunderstood would only work if there weren't asymmetric information nor externalities.
Furthermore in the past, when capitalists would observe "God, Fatherland, Family", laissez-faire capitalism had natural boundaries which are absent today and the tragedy of the commons is a reminder of the need for limits.
The market clears information asymmetries and externalities. You are confusing neoclassical economics with real economics. Oh my god you just can't say this it's too stupid You're whether trolling or plain stupid. As if all actors had all the same information and there was no externalities xD |
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Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?
They are as much parasites as the baker who sells you some bread. Have you heard about the invisible hand? This is not because you don't see them that benefits don't exist. No. Not at all. The fact that you're saying that means that's you probably never produced anything in your life. The baker buy primary resources, add their skill, their time, their energy and their effort to create something new that worth more. What do traders do? They buy things that don't exist, in order to sell them on a higher price to other people who expect to do the same. It's basically a huge Ponzi scheme. Most of the time nothing is exchanged and nothing is produced. The fact that you are too retarded to see the big picture and understand the meaning of the world "produce" that you are currently using improperly, doesn't imply that I have never produced anything in life. "The big picture"... Best argument ever. It just means "nah bro, you can't understand that's too big for you". I'm tired of answering something that is just obvious. You find normal that a product is exchange 46 time before coming to the market? You don't understand that the more you exchange a good before actually using it or producing something from it, the more unpredictable and volatile the price will be? If you can't understand that then I can do nothing for you. Go buy your bread that's made from flour exchanged in average 30 times before reaching your baker, and that would certainly be much cheaper without all those exchanges. If you do understand that the more steps there is between consumer and producer, the more volatile and dangerously irrational its price become, then you'll understand that I have nothing against the notion of trading, but against the fact that you exchange goods that don't exist, thus compromising the real price of this good. #edit: the fact that you edit your post doesn't make more your point. You seem to have a high belief in the whole chain of production, putting on an equal foot the supplyers and the producers. Maybe the word "produce" is not the same for you than for me, but for the Oxford dictionnary it is: Make or manufacture from components or raw materials. I think I strongly understand the word produce thank you. |
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Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.
A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.
Interesting debate while price go sideways
Consider you want to sell your car. Consider that nobody wants to buy your car this month. Consider that someone may want to buy your car next month. What do you do if you could use the money now? You go to a used car trader and sell your car to them. They make money on the deal. Are they stealing from you? Are they stealing from the eventual buyer? (OK, maybe used car salesmen are not the best example but hopefully the lesson is absorbed) And when the total number of cars in the world is 1000 and the total number of cars sold by traders in the world is 46 000 what it the use of the vast majority of traders and trades? Cause that's exactly what happens with lot's of ressources.  |
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I can't say I totally disagree with you on the fact that we probably don't understand the reality. Maybe you're right saying that the only solution would be to let things go, which is a bit anarchist by the way "letting things go" doesn't need to mean just sitting down and doing nothing. It does involve shutting up for a while, opening up that cramp of trying to control and thus not standing in the way of the harmonious unfolding of the situation. The Tao Te Ching is a great instruction manual for this. It's also not "a bit anarchist" but as anarchist as it gets. In the original sense of the world where anarchy simply means the absence of a ruler. I hope you're wrong cause I'll never be able to just let things happen. But though I don't believe in the same thing than you I see your point.
Sorry for the violence of my words. I just hate liberalism and people following this stupid ideal based on an infinite growth in a finite world!
Not being able to "just let things happen" is a recipe for permanent self-frustration. Consult the original Buddha for further explanation I think he pretty much nailed it. If that is your game and you want to be frustrated, carry on. What happened here is that you labeled the ideal of "infinite growth in a finite world" with the term "liberalism" which seems like a total non sequitur. This prevents a true discussion from taking place, because we have labeled the territory in different map-making styles and are ready to forever argue about which map is better. Yet the map is not the territory and such an exchange will lead nowhere. The same way you ascribe the failures of the last decade to "liberalism" I can ascribe them to "statism". We will be talking about the same failures, but unable to agree on what to call them - something which is irrelevant anyway. Meanwhile the rulers taking advantage of the situation will keep laughing all the way to the bank while we keep bashing our heads in with our respective dogmas. So what to do? I have no intent to be frustrated and don't feel like I am being so. But I disagree on the need of the map. If we don't draw a map each other and discuss which map is better their is no possibility to plan the future path we'll have to take to reach our goal. Though, it doesn't mean we have to confound the map and the territory behind it. To put a name on something is not to close the door, but rather to admit that, in this infinite world of infinite variations, we can still create arbitrary delimited territories, each having their names and characteristics, though being able to recognize that there is no real border. It helps the discussion to take place on a common base, and to focus on what seems important. It allows us, on the contrary, to talk about those failures, see we don't put the same name on it and wonder why, because it might be relevant. Once we admit that we're talking about the same thing, though calling it differently, we may proceed further in our debate. "So what to do?". Sadly enough I don't see much to do. I have few hope in our world and our future, but it doesn't mean I don't like to talk about it, in the hope to find people willing to do something about it. |
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