Most excellent! Though, I doubt we can all agree about how it will work economically. There are all manner of opinions on that.
Yeah, if the video says bitcoin could only be better if there was unlimited coin production I'm not paying. |
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Me?! Kiba was the first on scene.... Who's to say he didn't kill him, and shout for us to belay suspicion of himself?
Could be, he doesn't seem to care much for the sun. |
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I just wrote out some stuff and realized it would derail the thread. I'm going to PM you Martin, and maybe we should start a thread for hashing (not intended) out how best to explain this stuff (and how it works, heh)
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Quantumplation
I saw those teeth.
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Who will provide the p0rn? It's my impression that most online porn these days is made by amateurs. That really annoys the professionals, or so I've read. It's the opposite for poker. More amateurs is good for the pros ;-) If we could just find a way for the pros to do porn vs amateurs I think everyone would be happy. |
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In for 100.
My criteria is, Satoshi says "That's accurate".
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Poker sites aren't illegal in a lot of places. In fact they aren't illegal in the US. It is just illegal to fund the site with a credit card and even that is about to be repealed it looks like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_gamblingYou mean to say that playing poker at poker sites is not illegal in the US, right? Running one would not be legal, afaik. Do you play much online? |
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Yes...
But what you describe is only possible after someone have noticed and prooved the network split is happening.
Do you propose any method to detect the beginning of the network split?
I started another thread along this line elsewhere, but for an individual vendor, a simple watchdog daemon that tracks the average time between blocks since the last official change in difficulty and alerts the vendor if a single block takes more than twice as long as the average, perhaps suspending the acceptance of new coins until the vendor checks to see what is happening. Each block in a row that takes longer than the average increases confidence against a false positive. So if one block takes twice as long as average, followed by a series of blocks that take 75% longer than average, then you can be fairly certain that you are no longer on the majority network. Really? It seems to me more likely that a bunch of people left/crashed than a whole new network half the size of the legit one has gotten to you. I'm probably misunderstanding. |
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Given how hard they are to generate, in my opinion (if I worked 24 hours a day for 3 weeks, I'd certainly expect more than 50 cents)... I'd have to say that 1 BTC is worth about $800. I'll trade my 5 BTC for a PS3.
Given there's no realistic way to determine the value of something which is randomly generated, I'm giving up on it.
My 5 coins from bit faucet will go to you, martin, just because your address is listed. They're all yours, knock your socks off. Don't spend'em all in one place... or do... if you can... good luck.
NuAngel
Using your computer to generate bitcoins does no useful works, other than creating bitcoins, which is useless by itself. So you missed the entire point of bitcoin, which is to facilitate an economy using...bitcoins. Wait, it's not about getting free stuff? See ya. N/m, I'm back. Just made some free coin via my good friend Arbitrage. |
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Bitcoin does not prevent fraud. It simply isn't a fraud itself. You can still lie and be lied to, tricked into payment for bad service, no service, etc.
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I know you really want what you say to be true but it doesn't match with any reality that I know of.
Bitcoin does absolutely nothing to prevent fraud in banking. Any commodity can be stolen with clever fraud.
Bitcoin does absolutely nothing to improve responsible banking. Banking can be done using any commodity.
Banks never create money however, they really do increase the velocity of money. That makes it look like there is more money, but responsible banking backs everything with outside commodities.
Are you saying the FED creates money and the banks just help hand it out? I completely agree that separate "banks" are just office fronts of the FED. If you don't think the FED creates money then where does it come from at all? |
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As for loans, that's a whole other world. Any thoughts on the practicality of anonymously doing small loans? Does anyone think there'd be any non-fraudulent market for loans given the, honestly, limited utility of bitcoins at this point?
Banking is always based on trust in the bankers. People don't really "deposit" their money in a bank. They "loan" their money to a banker. There is a written contract between the banker and depositor that specifies the terms for repayment of the loan. Some loans are "on-demand" (checking accounts) others have more restricted terms (certificates of deposit). If potential depositors don't know who a banker lends too, how can they possibly judge their risk in lending money to a banker? I'm not a lawyer, but I'm as close to as absolutely sure as I can get that you can't enforce a contract between a person and an anonymous entity. So depositors would be able to hold a known banker to a contract. However, a banker wouldn't be able to hold an anonymous borrower to a contract. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Anonymity is a possibility with Bitcoin, not a requirement. You can add all the verification you want before you lend. How's this for a scenario. I sell you a car and lend you 90% of the cost. The car comes with 2 key cards, one for you and one for me. Your card works as long as you send a payment through the key control program to be forwarded to me. If I don't get a payment, I go pick up my car. |
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Imagine all the various possible lenders and their risk/reward desires and imagine all the potential borrowers with their various expected returns and risks. How do you decide which projects get the funds and which lenders lend?
It's just like any other market fundamentally! If no one else is lending then you get to choose the absolute best project and get to charge as high a rate as the project can bear. You will make huge profits if there is even one single excellent project out there because it's all yours. You could even take the seven best projects! Of course this isn't going to last, these huge profits are going to entice other potential lenders. They may not want to take the 8th best project, they may offer a lower rate than you did so that they can get the most reliable project. You can move down to a less good project, or you can compete on the rate.
This market will tend toward clearing where all the best X projects being charged roughly according to their riskiness and the Y most willing lenders having bid each other down on rates getting paid according to their risk appetites. This will leave projects in the wings waiting for someone to be willing to take a tad more risk, and investors in the wings waiting for someone to come up with a tad better project.
To address the "growing the economy" points. If a project returns less than it takes in then it is not growing the economy. The way we know someone is doing something productive is if there exist people for whom the outputs of the project are more valuable than the inputs were to anyone else. If people value the ingredients of an apple pie more highly before they are put together then it is wrong to say you are growing the economy by baking pies. You might as well be damaging apples with a fork and reselling them. You are making resources less valuable if you are not turning a profit.
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Why can't you start working from the lockin? Ah, because you don't get the difficult set back to 1 that way.
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I have a definitive answer for you all.
I built a test network on 5 computers, each running the client stock (fresh install) and had them all network to each other. They generated blocks all day (it's easy when the difficulty is 1.000), and after some transactions between them all (built up to 50 blocks doing this), I then connected them back to the "outside" world and as soon as they got in sync with the network, all the generated coin and transactions were wiped out and replaced by what is current on the network now.
So to answer your question, if the network is split and merges days/weeks/years later, whoever has the longest block chain (most CPU time) will win and the previous block chain will be wiped.
Cool. I guess you aren't seeing the transactions being redone because the accounts had no valid coins at all, right? |
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I would like to sea bearer stocks.
The ability for anybody to issue their own "stock" and have it exchanged with the bitcoin system would make the stock market and stock exchanges obsolete.
Imagine a company, say Apple, were to create a stock issue which would be a 64 bit number just like bitcoins. Each quarter they would issue a profit/dividend statement. To collect your dividend you would return your shares, be given the dividend and then issued "replacement shares" for the next quarter. The whole system would be "untrackable" and there would be no way to collect capital gains!
This bitcoin system is going to be outlawed, it is just a matter of time.
This would be amazing. |
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http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=transaction_fee This has information on the current fee schedule that the standard client uses. You are free to charge more or less, but right now since no one is sending more or less it wouldn't matter. Likewise you could modify your client to send a transaction that requires a fee with no fee or less fee, but no one will block it unless they have modified their client. I wonder is there a way to view transactions that are waiting because they do not have the associated fee? I realize there are probably none, but eventually that data would be useful for determining a custom fee schedule.
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I don't quite understand. Do you mean preparing some chain ahead of time then feeding in a bunch of blocks when you get a valid block?
I doubt that's what you mean since the basic idea is that you can't work ahead because you need the hash from the previous block to start working ahead.
How do you cheat time?
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As far as I understand, pregenerating all keypairs does not stop someone from using them if he generates them too, by accident. That is perceived as unlikely to happen. But over time the number of generated keypairs will grow... Yes, still unlikely, but still possible and nobody knows how to mitigate that. That is an accepted risk of using the system. Just use to it.  I think the number of addresses is like 33^62 (26+26+10?) that's over 10^94. If a trillion people each have a trillion addresses that's 10^24. The odds of picking a taken addy even after all that is so vanishing it's absurd. And no 10^24/10^94 is not 1/4. So, here you have accepted that risk. You have multiplied the value of the potential damage by the probability of the event. It is acceptable to you, because that is really low risk, since you take no damage at all. Some may be concerned if their potential loses are larger than yours, and have not only monetary nature, but for example, reputational damage. Bank may get slashed by a bank run, if it lose some of it's reputation, that will be the end for the bank. You can think of it like that if you want, but it's not a 'low risk' Driving around town is a low risk because you have a fatality rate of like 0.0000005. We're talking about a much smaller than .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 chance of losing the contents of one wallet. It's seriously dumb to call that a risk. It's on the scale of worrying about passing through your chair. |
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