Bitcoin is practically a toxic asset now with markets like this: This market has turned full blown scam.
Price up 1.6% from pre-ETF decision pump of $1200? Not down....not even 5% down...but UP instead? LOL. If there was any exchange on earth besides Bitfinex being the market leader to determine price world-wide, I might let it slide, but we're talking about the second coming of Mt Gox here - an exchange that already appeared to be naked shorting their own customers during the halving, admittedly traded on their own exchange while knowing where all margin positiosn are, probably traded with customer funds too, and then ranomly out of the blue stole something like $70 million of bitcoin from customers.
Is this a dream? How does Bitfinex STILL control the world-wide price of bitcoin while being completely insolvent and still owing customers something like $60 million dollars???
|
|
|
|
|
This market has turned full blown scam.
Price up 1.6% from pre-ETF decision pump of $1200? Not down....not even 5% down...but UP instead? LOL. If there was any exchange on earth besides Bitfinex being the market leader to determine price world-wide, I might let it slide, but we're talking about the second coming of Mt Gox here - an exchange that already appeared to be naked shorting their own customers during the halving, admittedly traded on their own exchange while knowing where all margin positiosn are, probably traded with customer funds too, and then ranomly out of the blue stole something like $70 million of bitcoin from customers.
Is this a dream? How does Bitfinex STILL control the world-wide price of bitcoin while being completely insolvent and still owing customers something like $60 million dollars???
|
|
|
|
My response to people who believe cost of production doesn't matter in bitcoin: cost of production has very little effect on price
You're acting like bitcoin has a finite supply. In theory it does, but not in practice since transaction fees are recycled and mining continues FOREVER. It's the equivalent of if platinum costs $1000 an ounce to mine at some point but people are recycling old cars and getting it for $100 an ounce. The lowest available price is the only one that matters. It doesn't matter if the cost of production was $1 million for a coin at some point. It's an open entropy system so if the cost of production goes to zero, people simply plug into the system and mine those recycled coins for free rather than paying you $1 million. If there are no recycled fees to mine, it means the system was already dead in the first place. The act of making fees recycle is the equivalent of infinite supply when a bitcoin is an arbitrary unit in the first place, just with the store of value aspect of that supply resting on cost of production instead of scarcity. Each halving doubles cost of production, which enables you to increase price or lower mining input. If you run out of halvings and then lower cost of production, you should have a corresponding effect to devalue other already existing coins. Do you see now why cost of production actually does matter? Most people with an IQ of 70 that don't know their head from a hole in the ground call bitcoin a ponzi but have no idea how it even works, yet if you really do understand how it works, it actually does resemble somewhat of a ponzi where arbitrary dates are inserted and proclaimed that on this date, the price must rise if mining input stays the same. If that's not a "scheme" of some type, then I don't know what is. |
|
|
|
Here's an economics problem about bitcoin as a store of value I want to see Marcus and Adam even attempt to address. The post is a reply to a Nick Szabo quote I don't think is correct: Any commodity that can be stored and so traded can be used as store of value that will render the owner immune from the perceived or actual risks of holding a floating currency. First of all, just about every currency is a "floating currency" unless the entire supply has been entirely mined from the closed ecosystem and you no longer have to worry about cost of production affecting value. But even then, you're still governed by people's sentiment for how much they value that object to trade their goods and services for vs bartering with something else. Everything about the currency is going to be floating in one way or another. Secondly, bitcoin having a potentially wildly floating cost of production is one of it's greatest weaknesses and one reason it's not a store of value. A wildly volatile to the downside cost of production is a black swan event in itself and would render confidence in that asset to nothingness. If we lived in an open ecosystem, which anyone who claims we will be mining asteroids for metals does, then the cost of production and it's ability to not plummet is the main factor that makes gold a store of value at all. If you live in a closed ecosystem it's not that big of a factor since you're bound by supply. As for bitcoin, the fact that mining NEVER ENDS is exactly the equivalent of using gold as money while being in an open ecosystem. If cost of production craters, you're screwed. This can happen in bitcoin easily. The act of previous holders just hoarding their money and refusing to sell low doesn't help because the network is officially dead in the first place if there's no mining fees to siphon off at this new lower cost of production, so the fresh lower cost of production coins drag everything else down with it. cost of production has very little effect on price even if ( for no good reason ) the cost of mining the remaining 9million coins was 0, price would not be affected. so what if the miner dumps 12.5BTC every 10mins and makes a profit. its NOTHING compared to the global trading volume, and the market itself dosnt really care about how much or how little the miner is profiting consider fiat's cost of production and the rate at which the FED prints it and INJECTS it into the economy... yet fiat is still a relatively stable store of value. You're acting like bitcoin has a finite supply. In theory it does, but not in practice since transaction fees are recycled and mining continues FOREVER. It's the equivalent of if platinum costs $1000 an ounce to mine at some point but people are recycling old cars and getting it for $100 an ounce. The lowest available price is the only one that matters. It doesn't matter if the cost of production was $1 million for a coin at some point. It's an open entropy system so if the cost of production goes to zero, people simply plug into the system and mine those recycled coins for free rather than paying you $1 million. If there are no recycled fees to mine, it means the system was already dead in the first place. The act of making fees recycle is the equivalent of infinite supply when a bitcoin is an arbitrary unit in the first place, just with the store of value aspect of that supply resting on cost of production instead of scarcity. Each halving doubles cost of production, which enables you to increase price or lower mining input. If you run out of halvings and then lower cost of production, you should have a corresponding effect to devalue other already existing coins. Do you see now why cost of production actually does matter? Most people with an IQ of 70 that don't know their head from a hole in the ground call bitcoin a ponzi but have no idea how it even works, yet if you really do understand how it works, it actually does resemble somewhat of a ponzi where arbitrary dates are inserted and proclaimed that on this date, the price must rise if mining input stays the same. If that's not a "scheme" of some type, then I don't know what is. |
|
|
|
Great article
I don't think it was a good article at all. He doesn't seem to know that peak conventional crude oil occurred in 2004 and that more expensive and lower return on investment alternatives were substituted in it's place. He also doesn't seem to know much about EROEI (energy return on energy invested) and kind of completely brushes off how cost of production factors into markets as I explained in my post about bitcoin above. |
|
|
|
Here's an economics problem about bitcoin as a store of value I want to see Marcus and Adam even attempt to address. The post is a reply to a Nick Szabo quote I don't think is correct: Any commodity that can be stored and so traded can be used as store of value that will render the owner immune from the perceived or actual risks of holding a floating currency. First of all, just about every currency is a "floating currency" unless the entire supply has been entirely mined from the closed ecosystem and you no longer have to worry about cost of production affecting value. But even then, you're still governed by people's sentiment for how much they value that object to trade their goods and services for vs bartering with something else. Everything about the currency is going to be floating in one way or another. Secondly, bitcoin having a potentially wildly floating cost of production is one of it's greatest weaknesses and one reason it's not a store of value. A wildly volatile to the downside cost of production is a black swan event in itself and would render confidence in that asset to nothingness. If we lived in an open ecosystem, which anyone who claims we will be mining asteroids for metals does, then the cost of production and it's ability to not plummet is the main factor that makes gold a store of value at all. If you live in a closed ecosystem it's not that big of a factor since you're bound by supply. As for bitcoin, the fact that mining NEVER ENDS is exactly the equivalent of using gold as money while being in an open ecosystem. If cost of production craters, you're screwed. This can happen in bitcoin easily. The act of previous holders just hoarding their money and refusing to sell low doesn't help because the network is officially dead in the first place if there's no mining fees to siphon off at this new lower cost of production, so the fresh lower cost of production coins drag everything else down with it. |
|
|
|
You read the article? Szabo doesn't make any sense here: Any commodity that can be stored and so traded can be used as store of value that will render the owner immune from the perceived or actual risks of holding a floating currency. First of all, just about every currency is a "floating currency" unless the entire supply has been entirely mined from the closed ecosystem and you no longer have to worry about cost of production affecting value. But even then, you're still governed by people's sentiment for how much they value that object to trade their goods and services for vs bartering with something else. Everything about the currency is going to be floating in one way or another. Secondly, bitcoin having a potentially wildly floating cost of production is one of it's greatest weaknesses and one reason it's not a store of value. A wildly volatile to the downside cost of production is a black swan event in itself and would render confidence in that asset to nothingness. If we lived in an open ecosystem, which anyone who claims we will be mining asteroids for metals does, then the cost of production and it's ability to not plummet is the main factor that makes gold a store of value at all. If you live in a closed ecosystem it's not that big of a factor since you're bound by supply. As for bitcoin, the fact that mining NEVER ENDS is exactly the equivalent of using gold as money while being in an open ecosystem. If cost of production craters, you're screwed. This can happen in bitcoin easily. The act of previous holders just hoarding their money and refusing to sell low doesn't help because the network is officially dead in the first place if there's no mining fees to siphon off at this new lower cost of production, so the fresh lower cost of production coins drag everything else down with it. |
|
|
|
Roach read http://unenumerated.blogspot.ca/2016/02/two-malthusian-scares.html?m=1#linksWe are in the offloading gold stage by elite.. oil producers are buying by converting from oil.. malthusian event is over and commodities are set to collapse lagging behind gold. Now where oh where the heck is smart money going to start putting their money over the next decade in anticipation of industrial usage actually catching up and producing the next malthusian event? Hint its sure as hell not back into gold.. as that would not.be very smart You guys should probably stop trying to invent meaningless buzz words like "knowledge age" and do actual fundamentals. We are entering a time period of peak detrimental counter party risk and gold and silver are the only two reliable "cash is king", liquid monetary instruments to avoid that. Sure, you can buy a fucking house or something instead to try and avoid counter party risk, but the prices will crater since they're in an enormous bubble, plus you'll be the first target to be fiscally raped by govt tax wise. The possesion is 9/10ths of the law rule is in play here, and there are not many liquid assets to utilize that concept besides gold and silver. Bitcoin is a currency, not money, and it doesn't even remove counter party risk. Bitcoin is full of counter party risk and even relatively dumb traders like MatTheCat figured this fact out, so please don't insult my intelligence and tell me bitcoin is counter party risk free. |
|
|
|
Feels like a big disconnect between trader's "sentiment" and the external market here to me.
I think traders got overly focused (obsessed even) with the wtf ETF because it was 'their thing', Wall St., big bucks, yada yada yada, etc BS. So price has been dominated by trader's sentiment towards ETF thinking since at least mid December .... meanwhile the physical market on the street in India, Japan, China, Asia, Brazil, S. America, UK Europe, USA, etc has been picking up some serious exponential growth steam, look at wallet adoption numbers, s/ware downloads, localbitcoins.com.
Just saying you guys might be missing the woods for the trees. Try not to get run over by the bitcoin moon train when scalping your trading card pennies up off the track ...
You gotta be joking. The market equilibrium price was $1200 before ETF rejection, so ETF rejection is only a 1.7% drop from the pump price while the ETF pump to go from $1000 to $1200 was a 20% rise? Yea right. This market is trading like the DOW right now, artificially levitated. |
|
|
|
The Hunt brother's tried to do that with the silver market and ended up getting their ass handed to them.  The bankers changed the exchange rules on the Super Hunt Brothers on the fly and basically forced them to liquidate their positions, selling all of their silver instead of buying more. From what I understand, they were trying to corner the silver market using excessive leverage. The banks changed the rules out of the blue regarding margin, eventually forcing a margin call. So what have we learned? Welp, that's "regulation" for ya folks. And people really wanted this Bitcoin ETF thing to happen? Pfff. I think Bitcoin would be better off without "regulation". This isn't really true. The Hunt brothers weren't a couple of jews trying to pump and dump silver, they were trying to bring back hard money in general. They knew the price of silver was manipulated far lower than it should be and tried to break the bank so to speak. Bankers changed the rules on the fly to liquidate their accounts. It seems the only people who are allowed to break the bank are guys like...(((George Soros))). |
|
|
|
The Hunt brother's tried to do that with the silver market and ended up getting their ass handed to them. The bankers changed the exchange rules on the Super Hunt Brothers on the fly and basically forced them to liquidate their positions, selling all of their silver instead of buying more. |
|
|
|
can't rig the system to allow our crooked wealthy elite overlords to corner the market and screw over the masses"
Except by just printing some fiat, buying a bunch of miners (which isn't decentralized), then keep parlaying the profits of those miners into infinity like every miner already does? PoW is mostly externalized proof of stake in practice. |
|
|
|
dip buyers:
this dip buying is Cute, but dont expect a magical unicorn to buy it back up over 1350 once your done.
Almost feels like bots are trading like that $1350 number was actually real. ...it was. It was so real this song began playing right as it happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcXV1Pm77h4 |
|
|
|
dip buyers:
this dip buying is Cute, but dont expect a magical unicorn to buy it back up over 1350 once your done.
Almost feels like bots are trading like that $1350 number was actually real. |
|
|
|
remarkable market is holding this price like a champ.
Price has absolutely no short term upside at all, so it feels like some whales who got stuck on the wrong side of the ETF trade are propping it up in order to then come in with the flash $4-5 million dump on finex and bitstamp while nobody is looking. You are so full of shit.  But keep it up till my Fiat arrives on Monday... ^^ Do you know nothing about the bitcoin market? This entire run that started around $1000 was all predicated on ETF hype. If you factor in $1200 as the market price of the ETF hype (I don't consider that manipulation squeeze blow off top on ETF day as a real metric of anything), then best case scenario of ETF denial would probably be a 50% retrace to $1100, and worst case a full retrace or dump lower than where it started. Hence my statement, there is zero upside on price from this point in the short term. |
|
|
|
remarkable market is holding this price like a champ.
Price has absolutely no short term upside at all, so it feels like some whales who got stuck on the wrong side of the ETF trade are propping it up in order to then come in with the flash $4-5 million dump on finex and bitstamp while nobody is looking. |
|
|
|
Money doesn't fork. Money forks all the time. It was common practice to dillute gold and silver coins with less valuable metals. That's not a fork...it's the same thing as shaving. You can't fork gold and silver you idiots! you also can't move 30,000$ worth of gold from here to china for a buck. imagine having to pay deals in gold LMAO! Imagine opening your borders to global labor arbitrage so that any nation with a population surplus outbids you in everything, forcing you into trillion dollar trade deficits. Then after a couple years, no matter what you're paying them with, China owns all of it no matter what. Then you print a new "domestic only" dollar, which then implodes because it's valueless, then you're back to a 3rd world country. The moral of the story is, exporting all your money, no matter what you use as money, is never a valid choice in the first place. This is why China forbids exportation of gold. Just like using hard money prevents your sovereign debt from going out of control, it also acts as a barrier to prevent you from running trade deficits that eventually implode your country. Everybody notices all the gold and silver getting onto the ship departing to China and usually stops it beforehand. We will see how long it takes before unilateral action is taken this time: http://didthesystemcollapse.com/The only way to make it so they don't want all of it, is to stop manipulating it lower and raise the price so high they consider it overvalued. Then they'll be happy to take some of your freshly printed Tbills again. |
|
|
|
Money doesn't fork. Money forks all the time. It was common practice to dillute gold and silver coins with less valuable metals. That's not a fork...it's the same thing as shaving. You can't fork gold and silver you idiots! |
|
|
|
Personally I think silver will do the worst of the three over the short run but it has some serious medium term potential.
The price of silver right now is the same inflation adjusted price it was 100 years ago. The inflation adjusted price of gold is 3x higher, not to mention silver supplies have been rapidly depleting through industry while blocks of gold just keep stacking higher. Both metals are in an inverse bubble, but silver is far more undervalued and will see larger gains than gold does. The enormous market cap gold already has makes it almost impossible to outdo silver gains. It's like comparing altcoin vs bitcoin price movements. |
|
|
|
Gold does not top cryptocurrency in any of the bolded properties, its unlimited supply that can be mined at random and thus value becomes random aswell
Lol, yet it's probable bitcoin will have to become inflationary to have any form of convergence, which I think you even agree on, yet you still claim bitcoin is finite. Also, the earth is mostly a closed ecosystem, so gold is relatively finite in that regard. Hence your claim is sort of the inverse of reality. And no, I don't consider asteroid mining making earth an open ecosystem when cost of production is infinitely higher. And my comment on the bitcoin ETF decision: I actually agree with the ETF decision for a few reasons. Bitcoin has no transaction finality or even eventual consistency since technically the entire chain can be re-written, and in order to make any claim of being decentralized (unlike Vitalikcoin), that's the way it has to be designed; so bitcoin does not, and probably never will, fit into any existing legal system.
|
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
