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6921  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... on: June 25, 2011, 10:12:04 AM
If there is one thing I have learned about Bitcoins, its that mining them is not profitable or worth while. When you factor in all implicit and explicit costs, mining is a terrible loss.

That doesnt mean that you cant make Bitcoins in a profitable manner. It just means that you have to think more outside the box. You cant make money where everybody is trying to make money. You need unique, creative methods that you can scale up.

+1. Thank you.  This is the most sane post I have ever read in the Newbie forum.  The market equilibrium profit rate for mining should be close to 0 profit.  Just enough revenue on average to cover the energy, cooling, hardware, and monitoring/setup labor costs plus a small risk premium to account for the uncertainty in mining.  At this point, I strongly advise that Newbies don't waste their time mining unless they are experienced computer hardware specialists.  Instead, please offer goods/services in exchange for bitcoin.  The whole point of bitcoin is that it is designed with the goal that a single person or group can't print currency willy nilly.  

Actually, Bitcoin is like any other currency in the sense that you'll need to do some work, or provide some kind of good that others will pay for (and you're willing to accept BTC for of course).

+1. Thank you again

OP fails at calculations.

If you're using ANY 5xxx or 6xxx series card, it is profitable to mine.  I don't care what your electric costs are, but the price/difficulty ratio isn't yet terrible enough for those who pay the most for electricity to be unprofitable.

Keep in mind the current USD bitcoin value is very speculative, and I don't think the current total market value of all bitcoins currently in existence accurately reflects the size of the bitcoin economy.  Please offer goods and services in exchange for bitcoin instead.  Bitcoin is not about mining for the same exact reason that gold is not about mining.
Really?  REALLY?  So because I might not make a profit tomorrow, I shouldn't mine today?  That's the most absurd logic I've ever heard.

I'm paying for my electricity 6x over.  There is absolutely no reason for me to not mine.  It would make zero sense.
6922  Other / Off-topic / Re: Complete explanation for all the hacks lately. on: June 25, 2011, 09:08:26 AM
Do you realize that by utilizing the entire world's population and hardware resources to cracking every possible 'coin', you're personally contributing to the largest live 256bit encryption brute force 'dictionary'? Kind of makes you think that the government is probably BEHIND BitCoin, rather than interested in shutting it down, ey?

No, such a dictionary wouldn't be practical.  The SHA-256 function can use a message input size of numbers anywhere between 1 all the way to 2^64 − 1 bits and produces a digest hash output of size 256 bits.  That is a huge huge possible number of inputs, basically it is ~2^(2^64).  Now of course the size of each block of transactions is currently rarely no bigger than ~64kb.  And, keep in mind that the entire bitcoin network only *publishes* 1 solution every 10 minutes, whereby a *solution* is nothing more than a pair of one number (of a string of 1's &  0's representing all transactions after the previous block) and a nonce such that it's SHA-256 hash is a 256-bit number with a certain number of topmost bits (depending on the current difficulty...currently 53 bits out of 256 bits) equal to 0.  Do you realize how long it would take to fill up, store, or even access an inverted hash table with 2^203 inputs?  And keep in mind these solutions are utterly useless (someone in the forums a few months back mentioned possibly to break cryptographic salt, but I don't see how).  And realize that the network only produces ~6*24*356=52,560 *solutions* every year so I couldn't even begin to fill this huge table.  And please, if you are trying to build a password cracking dictionary, realize that the binary format for a block of transactions looks nothing like the ascii text of passwords (if that is what you are referring to by brute force 'dictionary').

tl;dr summary is basically that all those hash cycles spent mining bitcoins all over the world is not producing anything useful other than ensuring bitcoin network security.

(edit: I see that other people already pointed out that the bitcoin block solutions are useless, but since it took me so long to write the above, I don't feel like deleting it.  And I apologize for any typing errors, since it is late at night.)

Thank you. It's alright, I enjoyed the read and I see now how insane it would be. After reading Satoshi's whitepaper a few minutes ago I kind of see it a tad differently. Socially and economically however, my opinion hasn't changed and I'm still a bit conspiracy paranoid about its future. Why wouldn't I be-- BitCoin is the currency of which the Black market will prosper.
You just gained much respect from me for not being stubborn when you realized you were wrong.  That's not what 99% of people here would do...  Anyway, I do agree that the future of bitcoins are uncertain, for a good variety of reasons.  But I am excited about the project and its potential (not just in the black market), so we'll just have to wait and see.
6923  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Make it 100 posts to get out of here. on: June 25, 2011, 09:04:06 AM
Make it 1000.

Then like 25 people have the whole rest of the boards to themselves.
6924  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... on: June 25, 2011, 09:02:14 AM
OP fails at calculations.

If you're using ANY 5xxx or 6xxx series card, it is profitable to mine.  I don't care what your electric costs are, but the price/difficulty ratio isn't yet terrible enough for those who pay the most for electricity to be unprofitable.
6925  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Poll - Mt. Gox Rollback - We Finally see our Accounts on: June 25, 2011, 07:13:31 AM
Consistant good results so far, now if Mt Gox can just make good on getting us back to the point of withdrawing depositing and trading I may begin to consider starting to trust them again... maybe.



Also (due to the fact that its now a meme) Option two can also be expressed as:


fuck you mtgox
Who is that guy anyway?
6926  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: THE DE-GOXER - check your balance history and access logs - FOR REAL on: June 25, 2011, 04:55:56 AM
Well, my balance is correct.  Tongue

Currency   Balance
BTC   0.10000000 ฿TC
USD   $0.00600
6927  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Place your bets on when Mt Gox will *really* resume trading - Prize is 5 BTC. on: June 25, 2011, 04:47:54 AM
Lol I'm the only person who took the official time.
You're 1 hr off the official time.  It's 15:00 GMT, and I took that already.  Tongue
6928  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Place your bets on when Mt Gox will *really* resume trading - Prize is 5 BTC. on: June 25, 2011, 03:36:51 AM
Wait... $100 prize?  Why do I not believe this?

Regardless, I say 15:00 GMT, June 25th.
6929  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: MtGox Dead to me forever - Delayed AGAIN! on: June 25, 2011, 03:35:09 AM
Tradehill ftw.
6930  Other / Off-topic / Re: fuck you mtgox on: June 25, 2011, 03:33:04 AM
Quote
[Update June 24 - 02:56 GMT] Pushing until 15:00 GMT.
We have found that balances on some older accounts look significantly incorrect when compared with the old database. At this time we do not know what caused the balances to be off, or how many of the older accounts are affected. We haven't touched the old backend or database, so we're going to import the accounts again once we have found what caused the off-balances.

No money is lost, we still have the records of all transactions that happened prior to the bitcoin sell-off. All funds deposited are still in our bank accounts, and we're going to try and get this resolved by 15:00 GMT.

We look forward to getting everyone trading within an hour of getting users logged in and accessing their accounts.
Lulz...
6931  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Isn't the transaction delay very unpractical for over-the-counter sales? on: June 25, 2011, 12:05:50 AM
0/conf will work for retail transactions.  I bet the rate of people using a double-spend technique to screw people out of money would be roughly equivalent to the rate of people using counterfeit bills for a cash transaction.  And whoever the retailer is can use security cameras or other techniques to track the perp down and prosecute them.

...unless you're buying something expensive, like a big-screen TV.
Are you really willing to risk jailtime to try and steal a couple grand from a retailer who probably has security cameras aimed at your face?

Besides, retailers expect a certain percentage of fraudulent transactions with all current transaction methods.  Credit cards (chargebacks), checks (NSF), cash (counterfeit), etc.  As long as that percentage doesn't increase with bitcoins, they'd probably be fine with it.
6932  Economy / Services / Re: Advertising on my site on: June 25, 2011, 12:01:24 AM
Eh, no thanks - not interested in a sidebar ad.  Most inconvenient shape ever.
6933  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Isn't the transaction delay very unpractical for over-the-counter sales? on: June 24, 2011, 11:43:15 PM
0/conf will work for retail transactions.  I bet the rate of people using a double-spend technique to screw people out of money would be roughly equivalent to the rate of people using counterfeit bills for a cash transaction.  And whoever the retailer is can use security cameras or other techniques to track the perp down and prosecute them.
6934  Economy / Services / Re: Advertising on my site on: June 24, 2011, 11:34:53 PM
Where would said advertising reside on the page(s)?  Size?  Image or text only?
6935  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Social Contract Theorists: This is why we can't have successful dissidents. on: June 24, 2011, 11:30:24 PM
If there WERE a place to go, what would it look like?  A lawless society, or a place of complete aloneness?  Because other than land ruled by established governments, I see no other options.
We're not in a land of established governments nor truly sovereign bodies. In such a land, true competition between these states would emerge -- a competition to determine true prosperity. Individuals would get to truly choose their governments, from a large selection. Not puppets run by the elite who control the money.
Except... we are?  Isn't that what you just got through saying in your OP - there is no place to go that isn't already covered by an existing government?
6936  Other / Off-topic / Re: fuck you mtgox on: June 24, 2011, 11:27:36 PM
can someone post the link of all the accounts that were compromised?

I think i signed up at mt gox, but never wanted to put any money into it because it was with american banks... Huh
All MtGox accounts were compromised.
6937  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: I want to get in today, what do I need to know? on: June 24, 2011, 11:17:27 PM
thanks!

also

anyone know what

We will relaunch the site on June 25 at 3:00 GMT. Trading will resume at 4:00 GMT (same day).


what time that is in EST/New York time?

I think my online conversions are wrong.

I'm getting 11:00 am Saturday morning
It's about 4 hours from now.  3:00 GMT is 3:00 AM.  So I get 8:00 PM my time, which would be 11:00 PM your time.
6938  Other / Off-topic / Re: fuck you mtgox on: June 24, 2011, 11:14:43 PM
It's ok, at least he can still double his bitcoins (or whatever he has left of them) with his sig link!
6939  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Watching amateur finance types flail on: June 24, 2011, 11:13:23 PM
as a daytrader for 12 years i know exactly what this guy is saying. I actually predicted my own demise when I bought at 30 bux but I took the gamble since this is not like stock trading...(i only invested around 10k which is fuck all in trading terms) this market acts as a share market with all the classic signs and follows, and also is different.. all i can say is if your not a professional trader i would suggest you sit on the sidelines for now or you WILL be fucked over.. I am waiting for gox to open and cash in on the panic selling. what i have lost so far is nothing compared to what I expect to make cashing in on inexperienced computer geeks or first time traders in this market. I will have your scalps.

The reason I am in the hole atm is because I didn't think a decentralised, deflationary currency would exhibit the same traits as a commodity, but it does. Human behavior is the single point of failure in this situation.

as stated in the OP my biggest worry is the exchanges, they are the next single biggest point of failure you people need recognise, more exchanges are needed that are backed by someone big.. or this will remain in the realm of a fantasy nerd currency..
So now that you recognize that Bitcoins act like a commodity (only you have even more noobish and predictable folks in this market than you would in a typical commodity market), you're going to sell everything you have, buy back when the price hits rock bottom, and then play the market as if it were any other commodity?

I'm not a daytrader, but if I was, I'm sure I would be doing the same thing.  This is by far one of the best places for daytraders to make money, simply because so many people here are so new to commodity trading and rely on emotions more than anything else.
6940  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: I want to get in today, what do I need to know? on: June 24, 2011, 10:06:18 PM
Don't use an online wallet service.  They're so full of holes that you REALLY shouldn't trust them with more than whatever amount of BTC would be virtually meaningless to lose.

Definitely download the client, and use whatever address it gives you there.  Keep the client running so it will download the blockchain and keep that side of things updated.
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