Bitcoin Forum
June 25, 2024, 01:44:43 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 [38] 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 ... 284 »
741  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What the Return of Satoshi (aka Craig Wright) really means? on: December 10, 2015, 02:44:14 AM
100% reserve ratio banking might not be that attractive, even a 40% reserve ratio of gold works very stable after world war II. People gain nothing from a full reserve ratio, but if those savings are bitcoin then it helps to improve the value of bitcoin
742  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [VIDEO] Craig Wright, inventor of Bitcoin (Satoshi Nakamoto), speaks on Bitcoin. on: December 10, 2015, 02:24:30 AM
And his view about fiat currency and property rights aligns very well with the spirit of bitcoin
743  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [VIDEO] Craig Wright, inventor of Bitcoin (Satoshi Nakamoto), speaks on Bitcoin. on: December 10, 2015, 01:55:27 AM
"(Part B) Dr. Wright says people are looking at Bitcoin too small (Bitcoin is more than money). In Machine Code, there are none of these limitations. We have a rather rich instruction set in Bitcoin. It's just not well defined. Ethereum is out there developing a new stack because they think we can't loop. But you can in Bitcoin. You have to use a separate control stack. It's not like other control codes where you only have a single stack. It can all be done in the Bitcoin protocol."

This part is interesting, this is the first time I heard about that bitcoin is turing-complete, unlike other guys claimed. If he indeed can demonstrate the implementation in multiple stack, then no doubt he is the most knowledgeable one in bitcoin architecture
744  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Theory: Which other cryptocurrency would people choose if Bitcoin would fail? on: December 10, 2015, 12:53:05 AM
Would people choose silver when gold failed?
745  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Has Wired discovered the real Satoshi Nakamoto? (.. this time) on: December 10, 2015, 12:43:49 AM
At this stage, technically it does not really matter who is Satoshi, similar to it does not matter who invented nuclear weapon. But those 1 million coins that possibly Satoshi is still holding obviously attract lots of people, thus the raid

In future, anyone who have more than 1 bitcoin need to hire a bodyguard  Wink
746  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Has satoshi just been found and radid on: December 10, 2015, 12:36:27 AM
That's one million bitcoins  Grin
747  Economy / Economics / Re: The economic model behind Bitcoin is flawed on: December 09, 2015, 06:44:26 AM

"it is the best monetary system in existence today from an economic stand-point."


This is human's adaptive nature, they usually accept what exists as best. Have you seen those north korean women meeting their leader? They would gratitude to even cry



Similarly, first you have a group of banker invented fiat money system, then you have a group of economists crying that this is the best system in the world



748  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Is Bitcoin 'real money' to you? on: December 09, 2015, 04:51:27 AM
For most of the people it is as real as a foreign currency: The only thing you can do with a foreign currency is to exchange it to your domestic currency and spend. However, each foreign currency have one specific country that you can spend without conversion, for bitcoin this country does not exist physically on the earth, but its inhabitants are living everywhere in the world, so it is a currency that belongs to an invisible country
749  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Mining difficulty increase is the real problem on: December 09, 2015, 04:39:27 AM
If the mining cost can be continuously pushed down below bitcoin's exchange rate, then all the buyers will eventually go to mining to acquire bitcoin, and raise its difficulty until the cost is close to market price again. So mining difficulty increase means rising mining cost, it is a positive sign of capital inflow

Another possible reason that mining difficulty increases all the time is that large capitals are fleeing china through buying mining hash power and get bitcoin to spend in another country. Money laundering is very feasible through mining: Kncminer's bank account just been shutdown, I guess that has something to do with flagged suspicious money sending to their account purchasing mining hash power
750  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 09, 2015, 12:33:51 AM

The biggest drawback of complexity is it increases the risk of centralization: If only a few guys knows how it works, then if these guys are compromised then the whole system is down. Currently bitcoin is understandable by thousands of developers, but if you go two chain implementation it will take decades to reach that level of understanding, at mean time simple solutions will gain more and more supporters


Do you mean that a trustless system which depends on users trust in the "brainpool"... isn't really a trustless system anymore? But isn't this already the case?

Let me borrow Peter Todd's famous word: If it is already so then why make it worse  Wink


751  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 08, 2015, 05:38:05 PM
The biggest drawback of complexity is it increases the risk of centralization: If only a few guys knows how it works, then if these guys are compromised then the whole system is down. Currently bitcoin is understandable by thousands of developers, but if you go two chain implementation it will take decades to reach that level of understanding, at mean time simple solutions will gain more and more supporters

jonnyj, your avatar text has always read "Beyond Imagination". May I submit that you have gone too far. Come back!

Thanks, but that's Pieter's imagination to re-design bitocin:

"What if we could redesign Bitcoin from scratch? What if you're designing an altcoin, there's really no reason why you would want to do this in Bitcoin. This is actually something we did in sidechain alpha."

Quote
So far, I was talking hypothetically about the scheme presented so far, because the deployment would not be easy. All transaction data structures would have to be changed, which is a huge deployment friction. (...) This seemed like a hard problem. I personally dismissed this as a solution for a long time as something non-viable, until Luke-Jr discovered that it's possible to do this as a soft-fork.

Yes, soft fork is a much better way to bring in a change, get it thoroughly tested and maybe becomes a hard fork when majority of users have tested it. It also takes time to test. Bitcoin has been tested in live traffic for almost 7 years to reach today's maturity, any large change would also need such kind of test by time
752  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 08, 2015, 05:10:41 PM
The biggest drawback of complexity is it increases the risk of centralization: If only a few guys knows how it works, then if these guys are compromised then the whole system is down. Currently bitcoin is understandable by thousands of developers, but if you go two chain implementation it will take decades to reach that level of understanding, at mean time simple solutions will gain more and more supporters

jonnyj, your avatar text has always read "Beyond Imagination". May I submit that you have gone too far. Come back!

Thanks, but that's Pieter's imagination to re-design bitocin:

"What if we could redesign Bitcoin from scratch? What if you're designing an altcoin, there's really no reason why you would want to do this in Bitcoin. This is actually something we did in sidechain alpha."
753  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 08, 2015, 05:07:38 PM
The biggest drawback of complexity is it increases the risk of centralization: If only a few guys knows how it works, then if these guys are compromised then the whole system is down. Currently bitcoin is understandable by thousands of developers, but if you go two chain implementation it will take decades to reach that level of understanding, at mean time simple solutions will gain more and more supporters

Look, you need to step back and realize that you clearly don't understand the proposal. Granted that may be because it wasn't communicated well enough yet seeing as all details haven't been hashed out.

I understand your precautionary approach but may I suggest you wait until the full BIP proposal is out?



Yes, need some more material, especially some examples showing how a transaction is verified in the new design
754  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 08, 2015, 05:03:36 PM
However, if a rogue node send out a block appears to be valid but with transactions with wrong signature, then if other nodes do not validate each transactions in the block, they have no way to know if those transactions are valid, if they approve those blocks and start to build block above this block then those invalid transactions can even spend satoshi's coins

That cannot happen.

If the right signatures are not included along with the transactions data inside the blocks fully verifying nodes will reject them.

Ok, so the fully verifying nodes are not going to benefit from the new design, then how does this design improve the communication speed between fully verifying nodes (which is the bottleneck of the current design) ?
755  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 08, 2015, 05:01:02 PM
Pieter Wuille is highly respected because he is one of the devs that made the right conservative approach during the 2013 fork. Still, his proposal can not be taken without careful review

We know that every large player here in bitcoin community never listen to anyone else but only themselves, so unless a proposal can be understand by them it will just be ignored. People ignore Gavin's solution just because they don't understand the potential risk for his radical change in block size limit. Similarly, if Pieter's solution is so complex (much more complex than Gavins) that it is not understandable for majority of the large players, it will just be ignored. You can never convince the large mining pools with those slides

Am I wrong to assume that the large mining pool owners aren't well versed in the rudimentary basics of bitcoin? If I can understand it, I am sure they can.

Do you really understand what Pieter is suggesting? And the possible consequence in future if it is adopted?

We have observed, even simply raise the blocksize limit to 8MB which is simple enough for anyone to understand will result in huge resistance, this kind of complex solution which requires decision makers to have deep understanding of the inner workings of blocks and nodes would never get serious acceptance if any at all

So far from what I've gathered there's clear understanding of what Pieter is doing within the dev community.

It is not as complex as you make it seem but certainly more complex than a simple change in constant. Yet the upsides are clear and significant.

Maybe Greg could pop up in this thread and clear things up a bit.

Even it is a working solution, the gain in that is not even a magnitude, the risk/reward ratio is not worth it. I prefer the simplicity over complexity. I think Lightning network's settlement based design can increase the capacity for magnitudes, that is more worth the effort

A full-scale deployment of Lightning would require segregated witness to be implemented.

I insist that you are exagerrating the complexity of the proposal. It may not be simple for laymen but clearly it is generally well understood by the developer community from the logs of bitcoin-wizards I've looked at. This is also something that's already been tested to an extent under the Sidechains Elements platform.

By all accounts the security model is exactly the same and while the direct transaction gains are not in the order of magnitude improvement, they are significant. Moreover it enables a new type of semi-verifying SPV using fraud proofs, an important progress.

The biggest drawback of complexity is it increases the risk of centralization: If only a few guys knows how it works, then if these guys are compromised then the whole system is down. Currently bitcoin is understandable by thousands of developers, but if you go two chain implementation it will take decades to reach that level of understanding, at mean time simple solutions will gain more and more supporters



756  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 08, 2015, 04:44:45 PM
Pieter Wuille is highly respected because he is one of the devs that made the right conservative approach during the 2013 fork. Still, his proposal can not be taken without careful review

We know that every large player here in bitcoin community never listen to anyone else but only themselves, so unless a proposal can be understand by them it will just be ignored. People ignore Gavin's solution just because they don't understand the potential risk for his radical change in block size limit. Similarly, if Pieter's solution is so complex (much more complex than Gavins) that it is not understandable for majority of the large players, it will just be ignored. You can never convince the large mining pools with those slides

Am I wrong to assume that the large mining pool owners aren't well versed in the rudimentary basics of bitcoin? If I can understand it, I am sure they can.

Do you really understand what Pieter is suggesting? And the possible consequence in future if it is adopted?

We have observed, even simply raise the blocksize limit to 8MB which is simple enough for anyone to understand will result in huge resistance, this kind of complex solution which requires decision makers to have deep understanding of the inner workings of blocks and nodes would never get serious acceptance if any at all

So far from what I've gathered there's clear understanding of what Pieter is doing within the dev community.

It is not as complex as you make it seem but certainly more complex than a simple change in constant. Yet the upsides are clear and significant.

Maybe Greg could pop up in this thread and clear things up a bit.

Even it is a working solution, the gain in that is not even a magnitude, the risk/reward ratio is not worth it. I prefer the simplicity over complexity. I think Lightning network's settlement based design can increase the capacity for magnitudes, that is more worth the effort
757  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 08, 2015, 04:36:50 PM
We have observed, even simply raise the blocksize limit to 8MB which is simple enough for anyone to understand will result in huge resistance, this kind of complex solution which requires decision makers to have deep understanding of the inner workings of blocks and nodes would never get serious acceptance if any at all

The objection to BIP101 was on the basis of it's efficacy, not it's simplicity.

If you're looking for a simple system, a trustless cryptographic consensus network is possibly the wrong place to look.

Raised level of complexity will bring much more trouble later in robustness and sustainability. That's why those complex network design in early ages of internet eventually died over time
758  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 08, 2015, 04:33:10 PM
Pieter Wuille is highly respected because he is one of the devs that made the right conservative approach during the 2013 fork. Still, his proposal can not be taken without careful review

We know that every large player here in bitcoin community never listen to anyone else but only themselves, so unless a proposal can be understand by them it will just be ignored. People ignore Gavin's solution just because they don't understand the potential risk for his radical change in block size limit. Similarly, if Pieter's solution is so complex (much more complex than Gavins) that it is not understandable for majority of the large players, it will just be ignored. You can never convince the large mining pools with those slides

Am I wrong to assume that the large mining pool owners aren't well versed in the rudimentary basics of bitcoin? If I can understand it, I am sure they can.

It's mostly a lack of communication and language barrier. (with regards to chinese mining pool)

Not only these. I guess chinese mining farms  are mostly driven by large capitals which using the mining infrastructure to move capital out of china due to capital control in China. These investors can hire hundreds of developers in a large project, so they might not be too interested in what devs are saying. For large capitals, the only thing they care about is risk, anything increase the risk will not be considered
759  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 08, 2015, 04:27:00 PM
Pieter Wuille is highly respected because he is one of the devs that made the right conservative approach during the 2013 fork. Still, his proposal can not be taken without careful review

We know that every large player here in bitcoin community never listen to anyone else but only themselves, so unless a proposal can be understand by them it will just be ignored. People ignore Gavin's solution just because they don't understand the potential risk for his radical change in block size limit. Similarly, if Pieter's solution is so complex (much more complex than Gavins) that it is not understandable for majority of the large players, it will just be ignored. You can never convince the large mining pools with those slides

Am I wrong to assume that the large mining pool owners aren't well versed in the rudimentary basics of bitcoin? If I can understand it, I am sure they can.

Do you really understand what Pieter is suggesting? And the possible consequence in future if it is adopted?

We have observed, even simply raise the blocksize limit to 8MB which is simple enough for anyone to understand will result in huge resistance, this kind of complex solution which requires decision makers to have deep understanding of the inner workings of blocks and nodes would never get serious acceptance if any at all
760  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 08, 2015, 04:13:19 PM
Back to the basic: How can you validate a transaction without the signature? You can not, otherwise a node will be able to spend anyone's coin and bitcoin will immediately worth nothing overnight

It seems that after the validation and the transaction is finalized in the block, if node can verify the validity of the block, then it requires no detailed transaction data, since everything in that block is regarded as valid

However, if a rogue node send out a block appears to be valid but with transactions with wrong signature, then if other nodes do not validate each transactions in the block, they have no way to know if those transactions are valid, if they approve those blocks and start to build block above this block then those invalid transactions can even spend satoshi's coins

Therefore bitcoin is designed so that any nodes are able to independently verify every transaction, so that it is secure on every node. And that will include lots of data in each block

In order to come over this limitation, Pieter suggested to redesign bitcoin, where the hashes of all the signature goes into the coinbase. But still, without the original transaction data together with signature, you have no way to prove that the hashes are correct, you would still need all those data to prove the validity of each hash. However, those data would be in another chain, then it will reduce the data on main chain, but put the data into a side chain. And in future, that side chain will have all the capacity problem that bitcoin chain have today, even more difficult to deal with
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 [38] 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 ... 284 »
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!