I saw through all that rhetoric. I wish more people paid more attention, instead of listening to social media propaganda. I have been buying Bitcoin only from 2015 but I only started paying attention to the news from early this year. I listened to all sides of the debate, it became clear to me the Chinese miner story was all BS intended to mislead people from the real problem. I hope the community will wake up before its too late.
Me too and nearly identical path for me  I believe bitcoin is a revolutionary technology that still has a chance to be an amazing success. But to think the direction of it's development is now under the control of a corporation with it's own vested interests and agenda is worrying to say the least. Blockstream/DCG/Axa need to be entirely removed from the Core dev picture so that they stop determining the direction of bitcoin development. The conflict of interest is just too great. Bitcoin development must go back to being impartial, for the benefit of bitcoin and its community as a whole. |
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Bitcoin is in the process of being centralised around a corporation called Digital Currency Group. It's holdings are listed below.
Notice the presence of Blockstream that controls Core devs but also Coinbase (biggest exchange), Coindesk, Bitpay (payment processor) and 200 others companies.
This is scary. I knew things were bad but I didnt realise they were this bad. With all the manic finger pointing at the "evil chinese miners cartel" coming from core devs, it is difficult to see the real picture. |
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Bitcoin is in the process of being centralised around a corporation called Digital Currency Group. It's holdings are listed below.
Notice the presence of Blockstream that controls Core devs but also Coinbase/GDAX (biggest exchange), Coindesk, Bitpay (payment processor) and 200 others companies.
A
ABRA
On a Mission to Digitize Cash / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
AVERON
Instant Effortless Mobile Authentication / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
AXONI
Capital Markets Technology / NEW YORK, NY
B
BIGCHAINDB
The Scalable Blockchain Database / BERLIN, GERMANY
BITFLYER
The Leading Bitcoin Exchange in Japan / TOKYO, JAPAN
BITGO
Multi-sig & Key Security Services / PALO ALTO, CA
BITMARK
Property Rights for Digital Assets / TAIWAN
BITOASIS
Leading Bitcoin Exchange in MENA / DUBAI, UAE
BITPAGOS
Financial Services in Emerging Markets / BUENOS AIRES, ARGENTINA
BITPAY
Bitcoin Payments Deposited to Your Bank / ATLANTA, GA
BITPESA
Next Generation Payments for Africa / NAIROBI, KENYA
BITPREMIER
The Bitcoin Luxury Marketplace / BETHESDA, MD
BITSO
Mexican Bitcoin Exchange, Ripple Gateway / MEXICO CITY, MEXICO
BITWALA
Blockchain Banking / BERLIN, GERMANY
BLOCKSTACK
The Blockchain Application Stack / NEW YORK, NY
BLOCKSTREAM
Advancing Blockchain Technology / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
BLOQ
Enterprise Grade Blockchain / CHICAGO, IL
BOLD (ACQUIRED)
Scale Faster. Pay Better. / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
BOOST VC
Seed Stage Accelerator for Future Tech / SAN MATEO, CA
BRAVE
Fast, Safe, Secure Browser / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
BTCC
Blockchain Technology & Cryptocurrencies / SHANGHAI, CHINA
BTCJAM
P2P Global Lending Platform / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
C
CAMBRIDGE BLOCKCHAIN
Identity Compliance Simplified / CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS
CHAIN
Enabling a New Medium for Assets / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
CHAINALYSIS
Blockchain Analysis & Compliance Layer / NEW YORK, NY
CHANGETIP (ACQUIRED)
Microtransactions Infrastructure / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
CIRCLE
Digital Bank & Wallet / BOSTON, MA
CIVIC
Everyone Deserves a Secure Identity / PALO ALTO, CA
COBALT
Reengineering Financial Markets / LONDON, UK
COGNITO
Identity Verification and Due Diligence / PALO ALTO, CA
COINBASE
The Easiest Way to Buy, Sell, and Trade / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
COINDESK
Blockchain News, Events, and Research / NEW YORK, NY
COINS
Financial Services for the Unbanked / MANILA, PHILIPPINES
COINSETTER (ACQUIRED)
Institutional Exchange and ECN / NEW YORK, NY
COLU
Creating Digital Cash / TEL AVIV, ISRAEL
CRYPTO FACILITIES
Enterprise Trading and Risk Management / LONDON, UK
CUSTOS MEDIA TECHNOLOGIES
Combat Digital Piracy with Bitcoin / STELLENBOSCH, SOUTH AFRICA
D
E
ELLIPTIC
The Standard for Blockchain Intelligence / LONDON, UK
ENIGMA
Platform for Building Crypto-Hedge Funds / SUNNYVALE, CA
ETHERSCAN
Ethereum Block Explorer / KUALA LUMPUR, MALAYSIA
EVERLEDGER
Blockchain Ledger for Valuable Items / LONDON, UK
F
FILAMENT
Blockchain-based Industrial Internet / RENO, NV
G
GEM
Blockchain Application Platform / VENICE, CA
GENESIS GLOBAL TRADING
Digital Currency Trading Firm / NEW YORK, NY
GRAYSCALE
Digital Currency-Focused Asset Manager / NEW YORK, NY
GYFT (ACQUIRED)
Mobile Gift Cards for Bitcoin Purchases / REDWOOD CITY, CA
H
HASHPLEX
Mining Hosting Service / SEATTLE, WA
HIJRO
Powering Trade / LEXINGTON, KY
I
ITBIT / PAXOS
Blockchain Solutions for Finance / NEW YORK, NY
J
JACKPOCKET
Play the Lottery on Your Phone / BROOKLYN, NY
JOYSTREAM
A Decentralized Digital Content Platform / OSLO, NORWAY
K
KORBIT
Cross-border Settlement Platform / SEOUL, SOUTH KOREA
KRAKEN
Digital Asset Exchange / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
L
LEDGER
Bitcoin & Blockchain Security Solutions / PARIS, FRANCE
LIVEPEER
Token Powered Live Video Broadcasting / NEW YORK, NY
LUNO
Bitcoin for Everyone, Everywhere / SINGAPORE, SINGAPORE
M
MEDIACHAIN LABS (ACQUIRED)
An Open, Universal Media Library / NEW YORK, NY
MELOTIC
Cross Border Banking Services / HONG KONG
MIFIEL
Sign and Endorse Blockchain Contracts / GUADALAJARA, MEXICO
MONI
Mobile First Banking and Global Payments / HELSINKI, FINLAND
N
NETKI
Digital Currency Made Easy / LOS ANGELES, CA
NIVAURA
End-to-End Automation of Securities / LONDON, UK
O
OB1
OB1 Makes Online Trade Free for Everyone / FAIRFAX, VA
P
POSABIT
Payment Solution for Cannabis Industry / SEATTLE, WA
PROTOCOL LABS (IPFS)
Bitcoin Currency and Data Storage / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
PROVENANCE
The Future of Brand Trust / LONDON, UK
PURSE
Universal Native Payments / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
Q
R
REVELATOR
Assets, Rights, and Data / TEL AVIV, ISRAEL
RIPPLE
Enabling the Internet of Value / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
RSK LABS (ROOTSTOCK)
Smart Contracts Powered by Bitcoin / ARGENTINA
S
SAFELLO
Blockchain Services Aggregator / STOCKHOLM, SWEDEN
SHAPESHIFT
Digital Asset Exchange / ZUG, SWITZERLAND
SHOCARD
Identity for a Mobile World / PALO ALTO, CA
SKUCHAIN
Blockchain for Collaborative Commerce / MOUNTAIN VIEW, CA
SONIA
AI Virtual Assistance / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
STREAMI
Streamlining Cross-Border Remittance / SEOUL, SOUTH KOREA
SURBTC
Chilean Bitcoin Exchange / SANTIAGO, CHILE
T
TIERION
Global Proof Engine / MOUNTAIN VIEW, CA
TOKEN
Helping Banks Succeed in the Digital Age / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
TRADEBLOCK
Institutional Tools and Analytics / NEW YORK, NY
TRADEWAVE
Algorithmic Trading Tools / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
U
UNOCOIN
India's Leading Bitcoin Company / BANGALORE, INDIA
V
VEEM
Simple Cross Border Payments / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
W
WYRE
Enterprise Money Transfer Platform / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
X
XAPO
World's Most Secure Bitcoin Wallet / PALO ALTO, CA
Y
YOURS
Earn Money Creating and Curating Content / SAN FRANCISCO, CA
Z
ZCASH
Privacy Technology for Blockchains / BOULDER, CO
ZEPPELIN
Framework for Secure Distributed Apps / PALO ALTO, CA
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Why are some of the exchanges supporting BCC? What is the story behind?
Shouldn't the question be "why not?" |
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Blockstream did not sign the Silbert Accord (a.k.a. the New York Agreement) I don't see any current Bitcoin Core devs on the list of supporters either (the former lead developer Gavin Andresen did sign the agreement). In fact, Bitcoin Core as an organisation would be effectively breaking its word if they did add SegWit2x logic to Bitcoin Core. Indeed, they totally refuse to submit to the wishes of the community. Unbelievable behaviour |
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Since I started bitcoin in 2015 there are already bitcoin gambling sites and today they are still existing. I'm just thinking if gambling is one of the factors in increasing the bitcoin's value.
Anything that increases the need to hold bitcoins, even on a temporary basis like getting some before paying for a service, will contribute to bitcoin's increase in value. This value is the 'currency' value of bitcoin and the only sustainable value it can acquire. The speculative value of bitcoin (or as a savings vehicle) can only be sustained by demand coming from it's use as a currency. |
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Hey guys,
Hearing so many things about the August 1 fork that i really don't know if i should keep or remove my BTC from Coinbase.
What you guys think? Its safe to keep them there?
Thanks.
Any exchange but coinbase or gdax would do |
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I've read a lot of articles about people claiming bitcoin will be worth millions in the future, for example John mcAfee recently said bitcoin will be 500K in 3 years.
Now, imagine if this was true, and it was in fact 500K/BTC. The total market cap would then be 10.500.000.000.000, or about 10 quadrillion dollars. That's about 10 times as much as all the money in the world (allthough I'm not quite sure if this is accurate). Still, that's an unbelievable and unachievable amount of money. Even if we ignore the market caps, imagine how many people would become rich? Millions would become millionairs, hundreds would become billionaires, all in a matter of 3 years. This would cripple the global economy as we know it.
My best guess is that, in 10 years, bitcoin might be around it's absolute peak of 30K, giving it a total market cap of about 630.000.000.000$, or 630 billion. The total market cap of cryptos would then be around 2 trillion if the some of the better alts gain more traction. I believe this is fairly realistic. This means BTC would have to rise with around 7 - 8$ a day.
I think you got the maths wrong  At $500k per coin the market cap is $10 trillion, a little over gold's market cap Edit to add: your maths is right but the $10.500.000.000.000 you get is $10 trillion, not $10 quadrillion |
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Does anyone if BitcoinCash contains the malleability-problem fix that SegWit has? If it doesn't, it's dead. You couldn't use LN, right?
Wrong Also: - With segwit, block sizes that were 1Mb will become 2Mb average (up to 4Mb). So much for decentralisation and those node runners with low specs connectivity and hardware... - LN itself is a transaction layer that would sit on top of bitcoin but also a number of other currencies (at least 4 others I've come across). LN is what people would transact with rendering the underlying currencies, in time, irrelevant (and removing bitcoin's value as a currency in the process) - A big subject of contention is also as far as I understand, about fees. Bitcoin Core wants miners to give a 75% discount for transactions to and from LN (the LN service would of course require fees...). Assuming all transactions went through LN and existing fees cover the miners' economic costs of processing transactions it would require that native bitcoin fees go up by a factor of 4 to cover the deficit - There is no solid logic I have come across that would require bitcoin block sizes to stay at or below 1Mb. The original design allowed for block size growth. The extent of the efforts put into stopping bitcoin from growing and scaling natively is not meaningfully and maturely explained. Segwit proves that keeping block size low is NOT an issue. - Segwith, LN technologies are at least in part patended by one or more private companies including Blockstream, a company that employs people at the top of the bitcoin core development team. These people are, as far as I know, hiding the nature of their patents. How does that fit with bitcoin's decentralised, open source nature and philosophy? Since when are open source developers supposed to behave that way? Something is very wrong with bitcoin's governance and that raises fundamental questions about it's future. At least we know miners' motivations: they want to make as much money as possible from bitcoin and for that they need it to succeed. The bitcoin core leadership and the companies they are associated with seem to focus mostly on developing other technologies and on making sure bitcoin won't scale natively. What is their motivation, what are their vested interests? Is it about development as they claim to some or is it about being in business for themselves? |
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With that being said, I've seen a lot of ICO's state that they guarantee a return on investment, are an investment vehicle, have a dividend, etc. In those cases, it's definitely considered a security and will be administered by the SEC.
These were the good ones  The rest are frauds that made people think the gift they made when they bought coins were investments. Those are in much more trouble |
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About time I think. These ICOs were giving the whole industry a bad name https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2017-131
Press release
SEC Issues Investigative Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities
U.S. Securities Laws May Apply to Offers, Sales, and Trading of Interests in Virtual Organizations
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
2017-131
Washington D.C., July 25, 2017—
The Securities and Exchange Commission issued an investigative report today cautioning market participants that offers and sales of digital assets by "virtual" organizations are subject to the requirements of the federal securities laws. Such offers and sales, conducted by organizations using distributed ledger or blockchain technology, have been referred to, among other things, as "Initial Coin Offerings" or "Token Sales." Whether a particular investment transaction involves the offer or sale of a security – regardless of the terminology or technology used – will depend on the facts and circumstances, including the economic realities of the transaction.
The SEC's Report of Investigation found that tokens offered and sold by a "virtual" organization known as "The DAO" were securities and therefore subject to the federal securities laws. The Report confirms that issuers of distributed ledger or blockchain technology-based securities must register offers and sales of such securities unless a valid exemption applies. Those participating in unregistered offerings also may be liable for violations of the securities laws. Additionally, securities exchanges providing for trading in these securities must register unless they are exempt. The purpose of the registration provisions of the federal securities laws is to ensure that investors are sold investments that include all the proper disclosures and are subject to regulatory scrutiny for investors' protection.
"The SEC is studying the effects of distributed ledger and other innovative technologies and encourages market participants to engage with us," said SEC Chairman Jay Clayton. "We seek to foster innovative and beneficial ways to raise capital, while ensuring – first and foremost – that investors and our markets are protected."
More at the link...
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If they accomplish a fork, good for them.... that's great accomplishment and all.
But if Bitcoin was really flawed, and they had the magic solution, then why not create a brand new coin? The reason they don't is because Bitcoin isn't flawed, and they need the Bitcoin brand to make money off their new Alt-coin. That is all. Bitcoin Classic 4 Lyfe.
The most credible explanation I can come up with is that it is a publicity stunt by ViaBTC and no more |
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That doesn't really make sense though.
a mixer just mixes your btc and charges you a certain fee.
It allows people to hide their money (by making it anonymous) and government don't want that as it would remove their power to tax it. Blaming terrorists or illegal activities is just an excuse. |
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Nice comparison. But who is trying to destroy Bitcoin?
The survival of finance giants like Axa depends entirely on projects like bitcoin failing. Bitcoin is big finance's eCigarette These companies will pressure governments to destroy it unless they can do better and do it from inside at very little cost. |
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If you know about the battle between Tabaco companies / Governments / Pharmaceutical companies VS eCigarette companies, then you will know what I mean. We all know cigarettes are one of the main contributors or causes for a wide variety of cancers and illnesses and eCigarettes is the possible solution to this problem. { Disruptive technology } The eCigarette companies has proven that their technology are better and less harmful than cigarettes, but Tabaco companies, with the help of governments and pharmaceutical companies { nicotine patches & tablets } has started a ALL OUT war against this technology, because they stand to lose BILLIONS. Some countries have BANNED eCigarettes, because the Nicotine is harmful to people, but they allow cigarettes that are more harmful. Bitcoin is fighting the same kind of battle against paid shills and sinister groups that are trying to destroy it with the spreading of misinformation and "divide & conquer" tactics. Will we win this battle against these giants or will we surrender in defeat?  Once global behemoths like Axa (100 billion euro yearly income, $1.5 trillion assets) get a foot in the door you know it's nearly over  |
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Seems like the forum is getting laggy and throwing up error pages here and there, I say this is bitcoin related as its an attack on the site if so, or less likely the site is just getting more traffic than usual.
Works fine here |
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This is the most important part of your message, you consider bitcoin as a short term investment and that's why you see it risky. Bitcoin has never become short term investment. For long holders, there is no such risk.
It's only long term value would be based on it's function as a transaction currency. It's use as a savings vehicle would be based on that. This is the function Core is trying to take away from bitcoin. Until that question is settled, bitcoin is mostly speculation. |
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Yeah, the title was a bit for shock.
Well it did cause a bit of an emotional stir in some quarters As I said, this is a short term contrarian view, but not trade advise. I am observing what people might do, and worried short term a little bit at the little chaos that has ensued.
I think it's temporary.
I hadn't factored that in before but thinking of it now I'd agree it should be temporary too. Having said that, I am of the opinion that these kind of mistakes shouldn't be repeated to often or people will end up dumping this project for good. |
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My observation is that most people use Bitcoin as the default currency to trade on exchanges. Exchanges largely determine the price of bitcoin, because that's where they are traded for other goods. But now, most exchanges are disconnecting bitcoin from the world to protect themselves if their uses lose money for any glitch, bug or unforeseen reason, and they can't risk a huge backlash. Coinbase will stop withdrawals and deposits of Bitcoins, Bittrex has already done so, Poloniex has stated they may stop accepting deposits or allowing Withdrawals at any moment without notice (bad). Also, transactions are having problems at some exchanges, for example right now on Gdax (Coinbase) it's listed as a problem along with Wires. I have a Bitcoin transaction from Coinbase to Poloniex that has been in limbo for a full day now. When these problems start to become to surface, combined with recent announcement from for example Poloniex that the may give you just one coin if it splits, and whatever they chose to give you, or from Gdax that will take for themselves your BitcoinCash if you leave your money with them, has this effect:
1) Caos as people unawares of exchanges rejecting deposits will have their funds in limbo.
2) Those trading but that don't want the exchanges to steal their money, will now have to SELL bitcoin into another coin, transfer to an exchange or a service that still allows bitcoins transactions, to make it safe in a hardware wallet or desktop app.
3) Those with any problem or large delay in transactions will be heard loudly, and increasingly
4) Those trading that were not considering or giving much value to Bitcoin Cash, will see BTC starting to plummet as people are forced to sell into another coin to safeguard their funds
5) Trading on alt coins will lose volume, since most pairs are against BTC, and then start tanking rapidly as people want liquidity, which turns into bitcoins, and then as bitcoin tanks, rapidly into BTC/USD, BTC/CNY, etc.
6) As it gets worst, short sellers will become quite bold. They have been beaten by a lot of people not wanting to miss out, which made for price in increase despite a lot of sell pressure. Now they will triple effort.
I don't know how likely it is. But it's undeniable that you need to sell BTC not something else to get funds out of Bittrex and many other exchanges. And that a reason many people hold bitcoins is because they are the Currency in the trading pairs. This gave BTC a huge push up. But it will unwind for the same reason.
So let's see what happens. At least you get a contrarian voice to: Bitcoin will reach $500,000 in 3 years, or $4000 next month. It may reach that level, but short term, it can't be more risky that it currently is.
Cheers,
That's a very interesting analysis thanks for sharing. I had missed that bitcoin actually has some currency value because of the sale and purchase of other cryptos, probably it's only use as a currency for now (similar to ETH). Do you see this as only a temporary factor that will disappear once exchanges re-enable the transfer of bitcoins, or do you think there might be a longer lasting impact on confidence? |
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I'm not entirely sure why, perhaps this makes me a dick for saying this, but I hope Bitcoin Cash fails horribly. Wasn't Satoshi's original vision for bitcoin to have only 1MB for the block size? I'm not saying that he is correct with this stance, but I don't think it is cool that they use Satoshi's name like that to market themselves when it isn't his "original vision" like they say it is.
"We the people will breath new life into bitcoin"?? What is this? Most of us people don't want a fork, right?
Like so many you have been misinformed by those who wish to see bitcoin fail. The reality is the opposite of what you have been told, beware of the intense level of propaganda that prevails. Satoshi's original design called for blocks to grow. The 1Mb limitation is currently imposed by a small and voiceful faction of the community who call themselves 'Core Developers' who don't want bitcoin to scale so they can implement an additional layer with their own technology on top of bitcoin. So for all intents and purposes Bitcoin Cash is closest to Satoshi's vision. Having said that, it doesn't mean the fork is a good idea. There is a community consensus to implement segwit on Aug 1st and then increase block sizes in November and this is what should be followed. |
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