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81  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Can you answer a couple of questions to a potential bitcoin buyer? on: February 01, 2022, 01:06:24 PM
Looking at some of your previous threads ( "Bitcoin Doesn’t Exist, Or How Satoshi Nakamoto Tells Lies To People", "Bitcoin is like a token of Trump's bankrupt casino" and "Bitcoin Exists Only in Satoshi's Imagination" ), you are not potential bitcoin buyer, so point really getting into any sort of argument with you, your mind is set. Or to quote Satoshi, "If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry."
Sure I am a potential buyer. But only if someone providers a rational answer to my questions.
82  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Can you answer a couple of questions to a potential bitcoin buyer? on: February 01, 2022, 12:53:34 PM
First some short explanation, and then the questions.

If I bought stocks, bonds or fiat currencies I hold securities by which those who put them on the market, have the liability to me. Stocks are put on the market by companies. Bonds by corporations and governments. Fiat currencies by banking system and borrowers. By putting their securities on the market, the said entities essentially borrowed capital from the market, which is why they have the liability to return it back. This happens when they withdraw securities from the market. So if I am a market participant holding their securities, the capital is returned to me when companies buyback stocks or liquidate the business, when corporations or governments pay me bond's face value, and when the banking system and borrowers sell me the seized collaterals or goods, services or labour to get currency units for liquidating the issued loans. Numbers in this case only represent the amount of capital a security issuer borrowed and has the liability to return.

Bitcoin on the other hand, is not a security. Its issuer/issuers have no liability to withdraw bitcoins from the market, and in the process, return the capital to bitcoin holders. So if I hold bitcoin, I basically hold number for being number. I hold a product similar to gold, a picture, wheat or crude oil. People buy these products for what they are, for their intrinsic value. And unlike with securities, once people bought them, no entity has the liability to buy them back in the future. So, the only way people can benefit from them is by utilizing their intrinsic value. But, here a crucial problem arises regarding bitcoin.

Gold I can utilize for jewelry, electronics, dentistry and so on, a picture for pleasing my aesthetic senses, wheat for making all sorts of foods, crude oil for manufacturing everything from plastic to petroleum. Besides, a single unit of these products is pretty cheap. However, in the case of bitcoin the only way I can utilize it is by watching it. That's all. Once I buy bitcoin, my wallet application reads a number from the blockchain, and shows it on the screen of my mobile phone. And all I can do, is to watch that number. To watch it like a picture is watched. When I sell bitcoin to other people, the new holders can also just watch a number on the screen. So, essentially no human being on Earth is capable to do anything after purchasing bitcoin, but to watch a number. Obviously, watching a number is not as aesthetically pleasing as watching a picture of a beautiful girl or a sunset.

And now the questions: if I can purchase a picture of a sunset for a couple of bucks on Shutterstock and watch something aesthetically rich, why on Earth would I purchase number "1" for $37,000 and watch something aesthetically poor? Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?
83  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [VIDEO] Bitcoin is like a token of Trump's bankrupt casino on: September 21, 2021, 03:27:20 PM
You stated that redemption is necessary for financial instruments. I showed that your statement is false. Can you provide a different reason for the importance of redemption?
I stated the fact that all traditional financial instruments are redeemable numbers and that bitcoins are just numbers. You showed nothing. You just said that redemption is not important. ...

You are unable to show that redemption is important. Therefore, your video is invalid because it depends entirely on the non-existent importance of redemption.
I am not here to debate what is important to people. That's individual thing. I'm here to state facts. Then, it is up to people to decide whether it is important for them to keep redeemable numbers or to replace them with just numbers. Video can't be invalid, as all it does is stating the fact that traditional financial instruments are redeemable, while bitcoin is not
84  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [VIDEO] Bitcoin is like a token of Trump's bankrupt casino on: September 21, 2021, 03:20:45 PM
Ah, the old shill poster are back again, with his bullshit arguments to discredit Bitcoin.

The question is this... Do you want a "token" or worthless piece of paper that are being printed by mostly corrupt governments, that can be redeemed and ultimately destroyed and replaced with the same toilet paper currency? (The Supply are being manipulated to control the value of the fiat currency, that are backed by debt)

or

Do you want a "token" that cannot be controlled by corrupt governments and a currency with a fixed supply that cannot be manipulated? Also a currency that can change hands, without being damaged by excessive use or tainted by fecal matter and viruses and bacteria or Stripper sweat and/or traces of drugs (Cocaine sniffing)   Grin

Fiat currencies are losing it's value gradually over time, due to the uncontrolled printing of money by corrupt governments. Examples : Zimbabwe / Yemen / Haiti / Angola / Libya / Yugoslavia / Hungary.............. some even suffered hyperinflation.  Wink
Watch the video. All your statements are refuted with it.
85  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [VIDEO] Bitcoin is like a token of Trump's bankrupt casino on: September 21, 2021, 05:09:35 AM
You have yet to explain why it is important for an issuer to issue something and then redeem it.
Because that's the reason financial instruments exist in the first place.
That means that the ability to issue and redeem is not important because financial instruments can be based on Bitcoin.
So, if you decide to redeem casino tokens, and the casino that issued them, says: "redeeming is not important because financial instruments can be based on numbers on plastic", you would be ok with that? Because, you see, bitcoin is a number on digital media. Just like all financial instruments are numbers on some media. So, given your thinking, redeeming is not important because financial instruments are numbers on media. Are you aware how nonsensical your thinking is?
You stated that redemption is necessary for financial instruments. I showed that your statement is false. Can you provide a different reason for the importance of redemption?
I stated the fact that all traditional financial instruments are redeemable numbers and that bitcoins are just numbers. You showed nothing. You just said that redemption is not important. Which is your personal opinion that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This topic is about facts, not people's opinions.
86  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket on: September 21, 2021, 05:04:46 AM
Bitcoins are redeemable. I just redeemed some bitcoins for plane tickets.
That's trading not redeeming. The later is when the issuer of an instrument withdraws it out of circulation and pay redemption value in the process. Watch the video.

I have news for you. Dollars or your <X> fiat currency are not taken out of circulation either when you spent them (although they can be manually destroyed, just as amounts of cryptocurrency can be "burned" including Bitcoins if devs wanted to do that).
The video explains in detail how dollars are redeemable, taken out of circulation and destroyed (if digital) with every loan repayment.
87  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [VIDEO] Bitcoin is like a token of Trump's bankrupt casino on: September 20, 2021, 04:47:02 PM
Redeeming is when an instrument issuer converts instrument units to cash and in that way withdraws these units from market circulation.
You have yet to explain why it is important for an issuer to issue something and then redeem it.
Because that's the reason financial instruments exist in the first place.

That means that the ability to issue and redeem is not important because financial instruments can be based on Bitcoin.
So, if you decide to redeem casino tokens, and the casino that issued them, says: "redeeming is not important because financial instruments can be based on numbers on plastic", you would be ok with that? Because, you see, bitcoin is a number on digital media. Just like all financial instruments are numbers on some media. So, given your thinking, redeeming is not important because financial instruments are numbers on media. Are you aware how nonsensical your thinking is?
88  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [VIDEO] Bitcoin is like a token of Trump's bankrupt casino on: September 19, 2021, 10:43:33 AM
Redeeming is when an instrument issuer converts instrument units to cash and in that way withdraws these units from market circulation.

You have yet to explain why it is important for an issuer to issue something and then redeem it.
Because that's the reason financial instruments exist in the first place.
89  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [VIDEO] Bitcoin is like a token of Trump's bankrupt casino on: September 19, 2021, 07:34:06 AM
Personally, I think whoever created that video is confused. Fiat is redeemable and Same thing applies to Bitcoin. If Bitcoin is not redeemable then there wouldn’t be a way for you to withdraw it or convert it to cash. There are lots of exchange is such as binance.com or paxful.com that will allow you to redeem any crypto currency online eitherfor gift cards, cash,or another cryptocurrency.

So, saying that Bitcoin is not redeemable is completely wrong, people who don’t like it are ready to say anything just to bring it down. It is up to you to stop listening to them and do your own research and understand the fundamentals of cryptocurrency. Because if you keep listening to people, you will be misled and you continue to miss opportunities.Another thing you have to know is that no one is forcing you to make use of it, it is up to you and it’s a choice you have to make for yourself.
You are one of many people here that fail to differentiate between trading and redeeming. Trading is when a market participant converts instrument units to cash. Redeeming is when an instrument issuer converts instrument units to cash and in that way withdraws these units from market circulation. If you exchange cash for a bond you didn't redeem the bond, but buy it. Only the issuer can redeem an instrument.
90  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket on: September 18, 2021, 05:24:32 AM
Your definition of Bitcoin is peculiar to you alone, Bitcoin to me is not a losing ticket unless jump in and out of Bitcoin at the wrong timing, bitcoin is a store of value, and with the right application of knowledge and good timing, Bitcoin will be a lifesaver and a means to financial independence. I will suggest you work on your perspective, and you will begin to see Bitcoin global economic advantage.
I haven't defined bitcoin, just compared it. The same as a losing lottery ticket bitcoins are numbers on a media, that are not redeemable by the issuer. So it's not about how much money someone made by trading it. It's about how silly is to even consider trading it.
91  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket on: September 18, 2021, 04:43:21 AM
Your comparison is just off, I should say. If bitcoin is like a lottery ticket to which a lot already bet on, the people have already defeated the house and won against the lottery. If bitcoin is a lottery ticket, it is damn hell of a rigged one--in favor of the people at that, and I'd bet my cash there in a heartbeat.

Also, stocks of a bankrupt company? Who would, in their sane mind, even want to acquire stocks of a bankrupt company anyway? If your definition of bankrupt is hundreds of billions of $ in market capitalization, then you have a few screws loose in your head.
Read the OP. It's like a losing lottery ticket because both are numbers on a media, but not redeemable by the issuer. A stock of a bankrupt company is also not redeemable by the issuer.
92  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket on: September 17, 2021, 07:15:27 PM
The linked video explains the difference between traditional financial instruments and bitcoin. Traditional are redeemable, while bitcoin is not. Which makes bitcoin equivalent to a losing lottery ticket. Or, similar to a stock of a bankrupt company, a currency of a former county or a casino token of a bankrupt casino.
Have you heard about companies getting bankrupted and their stocks going to zero, do you think those are redeemable. When you compare something you need to have some facts as if these traditional investments levitate above the rest  Tongue.

You can simply search on google about how many companies went down in the last ten years where investors lost billions. When it comes to BTCitcoin as long as you are holding the private key you are able to redeem the coins.
Point? In the video it's explicitly stated that bitcoin is like a stock of a bankrupt company.

Regarding the last point. You are not able to redeem Bitcoin, but sell it. Only the issuer of an instrument can redeem it and then the instrument units cease to exist.
93  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket on: September 17, 2021, 03:45:26 PM
When you know what is the total supply of Bitcoin. How it will be halved after 4 years. How it will become more valuable with halving, adoption. You will realize that if you buy Bitcoin, you don't buy a lottery ticket. What you buy is a get-rich ticket.

2036: 99.6% of Bitcoin will be mined (reward era 8 ). 15 more years. Do you know Bitcoin already existed 12 years. Only 15 more years, total mined Bitcoin will be 99.6% of its total supply.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Controlled_supply
There's no such thing as mining Bitcoin. There's only software that stores numbers on a digital media via some protocol. Although, I don't know what that has to do with the topic at hand.
94  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket on: September 17, 2021, 02:49:57 PM
Thats a damn good lottery ticket then. If you bought it any time before April 2021, everyone won a decent amount of money. I don’t see such a good odds in any lottery.
But yes, we are listening the same FUD every few years and yet BTC is only climbing up.

And a losing one at that, imagine the winning one which doesn't exist to be honest. I give this person a 6 for originality with the FUD that he presented, no China or other generic FUD BS.
How is stating facts FUD?
95  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket on: September 14, 2021, 11:50:59 AM
Everyone can lend dollars or bitcoins and receive them back. But this is not puting them on the market or issuing them. Nor this is withdrawing them from the market or redeeming them.  Only the issuer can withdraw and redeem a financial instrument. If you lend a bond to your neighbor and then receive the bond back, that doesn't mean the bond is redeemed. Only the bond issuer can do that by paying face value.

No, money issuers never redeem anything. The money in circulation will not be withdrawn from the market except to renew the ones that have been physically damaged. As I said, bankers (who serve society in general) are only third parties as first dealers. You have to understand why fiat is always devalued. You should also learn how the bank's fractional reserve system works, how that banker with their rights can easily double digits of money just from their teller's computers.

The fact that people rarely know is that the government only publishes the amount of physical money circulating, if you know the amount of money circulating in banks, you will be surprised that physical money is currently unable to cover it (if all customers withdraw all their savings). So, what you believe that fiat can be redeemed is wrong.
It's not wrong. It's your lack of understanding how the banking system works. When a bank issues a loan it literally creates numbers out of thin air. When the loan gets paid, number are literally destroyed - they are zeroed out in the balance sheets of the banks. They no longer exists in circulation. With new loans they are put back in circulation, and the whole process repeats itself. Before zeroing, numbers were redeemed, meaning the banks, via borrowers, paid non-monetary value to their last holders. Bitcoin is never withdrawn from circulation. Rather it is in an infinite circulation chain, were it just serves as a gift verification like in Ponzi schemes, where you give something to someone for free and then you are verified as a member. Bitcoin is simply digital verification of membership in Ponzi-like scheme. It has nothing to do with money or redemption. All legit money in the form of a financial instrument is redeemable.
96  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket on: September 14, 2021, 07:13:31 AM
Thats a damn good lottery ticket then. If you bought it any time before April 2021, everyone won a decent amount of money. I don’t see such a good odds in any lottery.
But yes, we are listening the same FUD every few years and yet BTC is only climbing up.

If I give you $50K for a losing lottery ticket this won't make it a winning one, but the deal would certainly make me stupid, or lucky if I find a greater fool.
97  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket on: September 14, 2021, 07:11:29 AM
Explanation is too complicated. Basically the borrower has to pay back to the bank (and that can't be interpreted as withdrawing from the market) because that is an obligation in the agreement and has guaranteed other valuables (property assets).

The bank is just a third party for which you say fiat is redeemable. Nowadays there are many third party bitcoin lending services and they can also redeem your bitcoins. Banks are also the first medium to circulate money to the public where miners play this role (through p2p or the central exchange).
Everyone can lend dollars or bitcoins and receive them back. But this is not puting them on the market or issuing them. Nor this is withdrawing them from the market or redeeming them.  Only the issuer can withdraw and redeem a financial instrument. If you lend a bond to your neighbor and then receive the bond back, that doesn't mean the bond is redeemed. Only the bond issuer can do that by paying face value.
98  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket on: September 14, 2021, 03:22:17 AM
Maybe for the users who invested long back and cashed it out at the wrong time it seems like a losing lottery ticket. For the present day investors it isn't the right statement, because now people get into the investment with perfect understanding about the market. Earlier everything is made out of some sort belief and on random choice. So, we can't be judgemental on bitcoin as a losing lottery ticket. As of now it is the winning lottery ticket for everyone.
This topic is not about people and how much money they made.
99  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket on: September 14, 2021, 03:12:58 AM
The linked video explains the difference between traditional financial instruments and bitcoin. Traditional are redeemable, while bitcoin is not. Which makes bitcoin equivalent to a losing lottery ticket. Or, similar to a stock of a bankrupt company, a currency of a former county or a casino token of a bankrupt casino.

Just from your poor grasp of how Bitcoin works, it is definitely not even worth checking out the video. Bitcoin at it's heart is a currency, it is a currency whereby one unit is currently worth around 50,000 dollars when converted via an exchange or peer to peer transaction. You might not like that fact, there may not be much logic behind why so many people put such a high value on this particular currency, but it is the present reality that we live in. Currency is just a store of value. As we see with El Salvador, who have made it legal tender (AKA redeemable) what you have said is untrue and the pace is going against you every day. It feels like you either sold out too early or are just jealous that you missed out on the huge gains it has made since inception.
This topic has nothing to do with how Bitcoin works. Instead, it simply states two facts. First, the number that your wallet application reads from the digital media is non-redeemable. Second, numbers on losing lottery tickets are also non-redeemable. The same as numbers on paper stock or bond certificates of bankrupt companies and corporations. The same as numbers on metal/paper coins/banknotes of former countries. And the same as numbers on plastic tokens of bankrupt casinos. Which makes your bitcoins equivalent to the said things. It also states that paying $50K or even a dime for bitcoin is silly. That's all what this topic is about.

When someone states the fact that a particular car is engineless, it's pretty ridiculous to respond by saying: "you don't know how car works".
100  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket on: September 13, 2021, 07:46:27 PM
https://youtu.be/52DuIE1-tJY

The linked video explains the difference between traditional financial instruments and bitcoin. Traditional are redeemable, while bitcoin is not. Which makes bitcoin equivalent to a losing lottery ticket. Or, similar to a stock of a bankrupt company, a currency of a former county or a casino token of a bankrupt casino.

Not really for sure. I do think there is a lot of definitions that you are ignoring themselves right by now. Lottery tickets are unexpected, sudden, not even as a further as well. Bankrupt casino?? I don't really think it works like this for sure. You have to do research on it for sure.

Redeemable ?
I do not think that might work out the way you would have expected it to, since nothing is non redeemable you have to work hard for it hands down. It's the same for both traditional currencies and cryptocurrencies as well.
You gave the opinions about some points not related to this topic. Watch the video. I don't know what you are talking about.

The linked video explains the difference between traditional financial instruments and bitcoin. Traditional are redeemable, while bitcoin is not.

Bitcoins are redeemable. I just redeemed some bitcoins for plane tickets.
That's trading not redeeming. The later is when the issuer of an instrument withdraws it out of circulation and pay redemption value in the process. Watch the video.
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