Probably we will see devs working on LN facing charges like the tornado cash dev at some point ? Authorities work slow but they will act at some point .
tornado dev didnt get charged for just writing mixer code. he got charged for receiving a fee for being personally involved in shuffling finds used in a crime I wasn't aware of that , thanks for pointing out . |
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Even through Mixers are the current primary target , wonder how much longer before LN hubs that do not comply with KYC/AML laws could also be considered as not transparent and become illegal.  Something to think about if you are running a LN hub and can't afford to follow KYC/AML reporting regulations. LN is by default a money transmitter service , and could be also placed in the category of money laundering services as it anonymises transactions . This has been mentioned many times in the past in here and those presenting the problem were consider loonies . A whole community is waiting for the overenginnered "holy graal" which will be proven a waste of 8 years and a serious delay in bitcoin adoption . Probably we will see devs working on LN facing charges like the tornado cash dev at some point ? Authorities work slow but they will act at some point . |
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But the thing with mining is that it has nothing to do with individual (person) support. It's all in the hashpower.
OCEAN has promised create infrastructure which would allow their miners to create their own block templates. And so far AFAIK there wasn't a pool that actually gave miners the opportunity to say no to mining ordinals. Once that update is released on the pool I guess there wouldn't be any reason for there to be any blowback. It would be purely the choice of miners to exclude ordinals from the transactions they confirm with their own hash.
That's job negotiation protocol of stratum V2 . Miners creating their own templates will create a profitability disadvantage for the pool and the miners . If each user of ocean starts creating his own template that means that they will start working on it . So , the pool is not pointing it's entire hashrate for producing a block . It's essentially solo mining re introduced . The reason pools were created is to increase/stabilize profitability . I don't see any reason miners will start using it in massive scale . I'd like to hear what other people think . |
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My question to that is , how you can prove that you do this just to increase your privacy ? Please tell us your full name, phone number, where you live, how much money you have and share us your transaction history. If you do not because you consider this information private, can you please prove to us you are innocent? No. You do not have to. The default position is innocence. You are not guilty until proven guilty. I haven't used a mixer ever . Does that mean that everything you ask me to provide is accessible to anyone ? Doesn't bitcoin provide privacy ? Because i think there's a section in the whitepaper that explains specifically that part . And if at any time authorities ask me , i have the proof of source of funds . Do you ? How will you explain to them if your funds come directly from a hacked exchange or other criminal activities ? - " Your honor , i'm a privacy seeker and i thought it was a good idea to mix my funds in a pool that 50% of the mixed funds are from criminal activity and 50% are legal . Trust me , i'm not one of those criminals . And remember , no one is guilty until proven otherwise " . - " Do you have any evidence to prove your innocence ? " - " No , just my word " Guess the verdict . I'm saying it isn't fair for govts to say ppl who've used mixers are doing something illegal. They know mixers like banks can be used for good or bad reasons so they shouldn't put all bitcoin traders in one criminal bracket. Criminals have taken advantage of crypto so that's why it's getting a hard time.
I thought bitcoin was created so society can get rid of those banking tactics that everyone dislike . Do we want to have a more advanced money laundering system than the banking ? |
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Mixing BTC is NOT money laundering - you're trying to gain privacy, this is perfectly ethical. You're not harming anyone.
They've simply used these terms to make you feel like a criminal.
Ironically, they're the ones laundering & counterfeiting our money. That is harming all of us.
The right thing to do is stop supporting these crimes by using fiat, paying taxes, using their smart tech - phones, credit cards etc. Most won't do it, but they should.
The hidden hand behind government is the leading cause of death, they are committing every crime imaginable under the sun. The conspiracy is so large & so vast that most can't comprehend it.
They're basically lying about everything. Only you can figure it out though, no one can tell you. Like Morpheus said: No one can tell you what the Matrix is.
I don't know from where to start and where to end . But i will say only this , the criminals using the bank system to hide their money do something completely ethical as they're trying to gain privacy according to your logic . Correct ? And you will say to protect your position that many are not criminals and are just trying to protect their privacy . My question to that is , how you can prove that you do this just to increase your privacy ? And how it feels to be exit liquidity to those laundering criminal money ? Laundering money as far as i know involves a high fee , as launderers may face criminal charges . So , they do it for profit . You guys are just handing them your clean money for free and may face charges . Good for you , keep it going . I'll stay on the sidelines with my four hands .  |
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Not sure if it's making any sense to me! The mining pool always gets a percentage of the reward. Is the new mining pool not going to take it? I don't think so.
If the mining pool is not going to keep any percentage of the reward, that will be something new. But if that is not changing, I am not sure what Jack Dorsey is aiming to do with it.
They won't get a reward for 2 months . After that who knows . To make it worth everyone's effort to switch, OCEAN will be at 0% for the first 2 months of operation. After that we will need to introduce fees, but they will be kept reasonable and fair for all sizes of miners.
https://ocean.xyz/about |
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ok update appears they dont want to payout dust to individual miners(onchain and immediately to avoid pool manager custodian centralisation of funds).. they instead now want to avoid the dust by taking the blockreward. locking it up and then using.. wait for it "lightning" .. i am laughing so miners wont transparently see their rewards on the blockchain and instead the rewards are locked up in jackdorseys channel(s) half a step forward 21m steps backwards gotta love the catchy headline https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/ocean-pool-launch-6-2m-seed-round/The seed funding will support the launch of OCEAN Pool - a non-custodial Bitcoin mining pool where miners are paid directly by the Bitcoin network. The pool also offers complete transparency into its operations, particularly in the areas of block template creation and reward distribution.
but digging deeper into quotes "Over the next year, I will be redesigning the process of block template construction, leveraging and improving Stratum V2 where possible, to truly decentralize mining."
"We also plan to incorporate Lightning payouts which will solve the dust problem for small miners. This will also serve the dual benefit of bringing more liquidity to Lightning."
The most fun part is that this pool open as a "weapon" against censorship and they are censoring ordinals etc  |
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Well, with the recent events with Sinbad mixer, we've got a statement of the Fiscal Information and Investigation Service of the Netherlands in which they supported what is written in a topic title: Bitcoin mixing is not a criminal activity per se: Cryptocurrency mixing
A cryptocurrency mixing service is not necessarily illegal. It is an online service that allows users to disguise the origin and destination of cryptocurrencies. With this service, cryptocurrencies are mixed with other users' cryptocurrencies for a fee. Because these transactions are kept in a public record (known as a blockchain), without using a mixer, the origin of the cryptocurrency can be traced using blockchain analytics. For this reason, some users, including criminals, choose to employ a mixer to disguise the origin of their cryptocurrency. Mixing criminal assets and concealing the origin of criminal funds is a criminal offense. In the case of Sinbad.io, more than 50 percent of all mixed cryptocurrencies were found to have a criminal origin. In the case of Sinbad. io, there are no measures in place to implement and enforce a Know Your Customer (KYC) or Know Your Transaction (KYT) policy. So we can suppose that the government of the Netherlands sees the difference between mixing bitcoins for own security and safety and mixing bitcoins for some criminal purposes. So , what is in bold shows that there are on the one side criminal funds and on the other side their exit liquidity from "privacy seekers" . Good luck to the second group proving who they actually are and that they've done this just to enhance their privacy . By anonymizing transactions you just flush to the toilet any evidence you have to prove your innocence . |
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One question I'm interested in asking, given Mr Luke's thoughts on Ordinals, will this pool mine BRC-20 and Ordinal NFT transactions in its blocks?
Any rational pool would mine any thing marked as valid by the code that most other nodes operate, it does not matter what there inside, as long as it is valid and pays more -- should be in. Any pool that does not do that will lose many miners, either for paying less than average or for censorship. According to that tweet https://twitter.com/checksum0/status/1730004768410493183 they are probably censoring high fee transactions ( probably ordinals and such ) . Oh , the irony , the guys that are crying out loud about censorship are those censoring others . What a joke ( didn't expect something else from Luke and Jack tbh ) . Good luck to the miners that decide to join them and burn money . I would like to see if other pools will reject their block in case ocean pool hits the jackpot . Interesting times ahead . |
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Additionally, we are seeing the beginning of the emergence of a pleb mining pool ( https://web.public-pool.io) that is likely to continue to grow even if only as a hobby project. The more transactions that are censored, the greater the incentive for fees to rise which incentivizes more miners to come online and add those transactions to the blockchain IMHO, all this shows is that OFAC is scared of bitcoin but they can't really do anything to stop it. Good luck spending power if major pools decide to reject those blocks . And i really wonder , for how long will those miners are willing to burn money until they find out that they can't do anything ? You should study how bitcoin works , and Antonopoulos isn't the best source . You are the only one that can question how the structure of the network is made , stop believing others . As for stratum V2 that some like , you will find out that sooner or later it leads to the same model . There's no way way out , like in hotel California "We are programmed to receive You can check out any time you like But you can never leave!" Edit : Oh , and good luck trusting a pool that takes advantage of what the btc community currently needs , hope . Another rug pull on the making . Good luck to those who chose it . |
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That'd be the time to abandon Bitcoin for good. The day mining pools reorg the chain is the day there is nothing valuable to secure. It'd be suicidal. No pool would really want to do that because they would probably see the same things and know that it would kill their business. Would it, though? That'll be the day the likes of us abandon bitcoin, but the masses don't care. They let centralized exchanges act as banks, surveil their every move, hold their coins, and dictate how they can spend them. They use custodial wallets which can stop serving them at any time, like Wallet of Satoshi just did. All they care about is "when moon", and not at all about the whole point of bitcoin in the first place. They cheer for more regulations since it means bitcoin "is going mainstream", and eagerly await institutional investors, ETFs, and the like. Are they going to care about a few transactions belonging to other people are being censored? The fact that this censorship is barely being discussed across this forum/Reddit/Twitter/etc. tells you all you need to know. People don't care. Well, the problem with the price is that maxis are the ones who want it to only go up . If the price doesn't double as maxis desire in each cycle , then mining/securing the network becomes unprofitable . That's what the other chains saw during the hashwars and decided to split . So don't blame the "ignorant" masses . Just admit that you didn't foresee what was about to happen . Either bitcoin lives from fees and not subsidy , or it dies. Btc chose its path , the only way to survive is if the price goes up . Alternatively , stop running rasppis and decide to invest in mining gear , and run them altruistically to support your ideas . Just make sure to buy a lot of hashpower , as double-spending attacks might occur . Also fixed a sentence to point things properly: "Are they going to care about a few transactions belonging to other people criminals that are being censored?" |
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No pool would really want to do that because they would probably see the same things and know that it would kill their business.
-Dave
Don't forget that there are chains with a different mindset than the one of btc community that will welcome those pools and hashrate . |
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Κατα τη γνωμη μου η κατασταση θα οδηγησει ( οχι συντομα δυστυχως ) τη νεολαια να επιστρεψει σε χωρια . Με τους ρυθμους που ολα αυξανονται (καυσιμα , στεγη , τροφιμα κλπ ) συντομα θα ειναι αβασταχτη η διαβιωση στις πολεις . Ειτε οι νεοι θα οδηγηθουν σε ενα ειδος "κομμουνας" που θα βλεπεις να μενουν σε ενα σπιτι 10 ατομα , ειτε θα επιλεξουν τη διαβιωση σε χωρια , που σε πολλες περιπτωσεις τα ενοικια ειναι μηδενικα , με μοναδικο αντικρυσμα τη φροντιδα του ακινητου . Επισης , οι τιμες για αγορα πολλες φορες ειναι εξευτελιστικες μιας και για πολλους ενα ακινητο στο χωριο ειναι βαριδι λογω ΕΝΦΙΑ και κοστους συντηρησης και απο την αλλη η πωληση του μπορει να προσθεσει κατι στα εισοδηματα τους για να αντεξουν το δυσβασταχτο πλεον κοστος διαβιωσης .
Λαμβανοντας υποψιν οτι ενα μεγαλο μερος της νεολαιας πλεον εργαζεται απομακρυσμενα , μια τετοια εναλλακτικη θεωρω πως ειναι η καλυτερη . Η ποιοτητα ζωης δεν εχει καμμια σχεση . Και σε αυτο βεβαια θα πρεπει να δημιουργηθει ενα network effect , καποιοι θα ειναι αρκετα "παλαβοι" για τους υπολοιπους που στη συνεχεια θα τους ακολουθησουν .
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Miners and nodes can do whatever they want, nothing changes the ownership over your coins.
Somebody denying you a service is not out of the ordinary, Foundry could simply mine empty blocks, Binance could not let you open an account, the other people might choose not to sell your single coin cause they don't like your eye color or your nickname, don't compare the protocol with personal business decision.
Well , i don't know if in a property that you don't have the right to use , move or sell you can be considered it's owner . |
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If you think that tainted coins and addresses will have the same value with clean coins then i don't know what to say .
Surely they have the same value, the problem here is centralized exchanges and services, and whatever they do doesn't reflect the nature of BTC. Centralized exchanges and services can blacklist certain utxo's whenever it enters their addresses, but it does not mean that BTC isn't fungible, the network is not responsible for what services like Binance does. You should store your funds in self custodial wallets, make use of privacy tools and p2p exchanges and services. Take note that the idea of tainted coins is a way for the government to attack BTC's fungibility, and if bitcoiners used more of p2p exchanges and services, just the way BTC was supposed to be used without a third party, then maybe these centralized exchanges would not have become this 'powerful' in trying to 'control' the network alongside the government. You probably don't realise that this is starting to happen at pool level . If pools decide to ban addresses or reject blocks from pools that contain those , things will start to get rough . |
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If you think that tainted coins and addresses will have the same value with clean coins then i don't know what to say . Only a fool would pay to get those coins . It would be like accepting to exchange your cash for cash with blue paint ( not a good idea , don't try it ) . If someone offered you to buy all the usdt that's in banned addresses would you buy it at 1/100 of it's real value ? or would you consider those wasted money ? |
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Bitcoin is fungible. I can send you 0.1 BTC and you can send me back 0.1 BTC and it will be exactly the same.
Well , i don't think so . Reality shows the opposite https://b10c.me/observations/08-missing-sanctioned-transactions/?tMined bitcoins that never moved or newly minted are not the same as the ones that have a transaction history . There will be a huge demand for those in the future as more and more cases like the OFAC one come forward . |
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Well , seems that people will start to understand that "not your keys , not your coins" is just a myth . I think we are near to the point where "honest nodes" will start rejecting blocks mined by "dishonest nodes" . There is a war incoming , and maxis haven't realise that yet . Their myths are falling one after the other apart .
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