Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se

[arabspaceship123]

I'm saying it isn't fair for govts to say ppl who've used mixers are doing something illegal. They know mixers like banks can be used for good or bad reasons so they shouldn't put all bitcoin traders in one criminal bracket. Criminals have taken advantage of crypto so that's why it's getting a hard time.

So, right, same tools can usually be used for good and for bad, but if we talk about bitcoin it becomes more and more suitable for honest and respected and not for criminals. And mixing bitcoin is also what is needed for honest and respected users as well, so criminal share in it falls like in all bitcoin transactions.

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[jokers10]

Well, despite that mixers are "not necessarily illegal" theymos banned their advertising and promoting on the forum starting January 1, 2024.

It doesn't stop the discussion about mixers, but I'd say it is an important statement in line with it on this forum.

[HmmMAA]

My question to that is , how you can prove that you do this just to increase your privacy ?

Please tell us your full name, phone number, where you live, how much money you have and share us your transaction history.  If you do not because you consider this information private, can you please prove to us you are innocent?

No.  You do not have to.  The default position is innocence.  You are not guilty until proven guilty.

I haven't used a mixer ever . Does that mean that everything you ask me to provide is accessible to anyone ? Doesn't bitcoin provide privacy ? Because i think there's a section in the whitepaper that explains specifically that part . And if at any time authorities ask me , i have the proof of source of funds . Do you ? How will you explain to them if your funds come directly from a hacked exchange or other criminal activities ?
- " Your honor , i'm a privacy seeker and i thought it was a good idea to mix my funds in a pool that 50% of the mixed funds are from criminal activity and 50% are legal . Trust me , i'm not one of those criminals . And remember , no one is guilty until proven otherwise " .
- " Do you have any evidence to prove your innocence ? "
- " No , just my word "
Guess the verdict .

I'm saying it isn't fair for govts to say ppl who've used mixers are doing something illegal. They know mixers like banks can be used for good or bad reasons so they shouldn't put all bitcoin traders in one criminal bracket. Criminals have taken advantage of crypto so that's why it's getting a hard time.

I thought bitcoin was created so society can get rid of those banking tactics that everyone dislike . Do we want to have a more advanced money laundering system than the banking ?

[cryptosize]

Well, despite that mixers are "not necessarily illegal" theymos banned their advertising and promoting on the forum starting January 1, 2024.

It doesn't stop the discussion about mixers, but I'd say it is an important statement in line with it on this forum.

Oh well, I guess some people will stop (shit)posting...

I know someone who made $1200/month (not a lot of money in the USA, but still plenty enough in poorer countries).

If people don't like Theymos' decision (that's fine), they should start a decentralized forum, because bitcointalk.org has always been centralized. Deal with it.

[franky1]

Ironically, they're the ones laundering & counterfeiting our money. That is harming all of us.

They are literally taking half of our paycheck and using it to bomb children in Palestine. 

My question to that is , how you can prove that you do this just to increase your privacy ?

Please tell us your full name, phone number, where you live, how much money you have and share us your transaction history.  If you do not because you consider this information private, can you please prove to us you are innocent?

No.  You do not have to.  The default position is innocence.  You are not guilty until proven guilty.

people say the same about guns "i have the right to bear arms"
yes but if you are seen walking along a sidewalk openly waving a gun around shouting "this is my right i will defend myself" you will become a suspect of possibly wanting to use the gun for illegal purpose like shooting someone, they will want to know what you mean by and how you intent to "defend yourself"
you will be approached by cops for suspicion of inciting fear and terror

many cops also have the right to defend themselves. so if they see you waving a gun around they may see you as a threat..

and thats how america got so bad.. right to bear arms = cops allowed to shoot if feeling threatened
also cops can stop and search you and ID you to make sure you are permitted/licenced to have a gun.

if you want to have a gun. dont advertise it to make yourself a target.. in short: use it dont advertise it
if you want use/be a mixer. dont advertise it to make yourself a target.. in short: use it dont advertise it

posting from another topic ITS ABOUT MIXING AND BLACKHATS THOUGHTS SO ITS ON_TOPIC AND RELEVANT
(topic about putting mixer tools into core)

Could the network of nodes be used in a way to create a built-in system to send joined transactions of sorts within the Bitcoin Core? Or is this considered outside of the scope of the project and you are always going to need to use some sort of 3rd party software or web as a service?

If we implement mixer on Core, this will help governments to tag Bitcoin as a currency that helps terrorists and criminals and so on.

You're telling me it isn't yet tagged as funding terrorism? Literally hundreds of articles every year, and even bills, proposing regulation of some sort to prevent "further terrorism funding".

And no. Bitcoin Core isn't Bitcoin. It's simply an implementation of a Bitcoin client. An optional mix setting in QT wouldn't be that kind of a red alarm. Gaining privacy on-chain is already possible and it works fine. There would be a red alarm if we hark forked into an enforced-private cryptocurrency on a protocol level.

blackhatcoiner KNOWS core is the default CORE(central) reference client thus it is the defacto protocol decision maker these days. so wanting to make core become a mixer tool is the biggest red alarm where everyones coins will be treated as suspicious

the idiot wants to think if every coin is suspicious the analysis businesses will give up analysing.. he doesnt understand by making every transaction suspicious they will enact more policy and lobby more regulation..

people can make their own wallet software (forked code of core and rebranded) into a mixer tool manager. however making the reference client everyone use into a mixer is stupidly going to cause more problems for all users.

blackhatcoiner is more interested in sales commissions of promoting mixers, than caring about the repercussions on the users of such

mixers should be just a side niche service not everyone needs. but for the idiots that want to get tagged as suspicion can remain idiots and use mixers to get listed on a watchlist by using mixers..

the solution to being tagged and watchlisted, is not to recruit everyone to be tagged and watchlisted. though i feel blackhat earns more commission if everyone was

[arabspaceship123]

Less sig campaigns means there's less spam so that's a benefit but there isn't a ban or restriction on talking about mixers. They won't be promoted or advertised so they've been banned in the forum. It's going to affect sig campaigners so we're going to see less income ops now but if it's the safest action for protecting the forum theymos made a good decision.

Well, despite that mixers are "not necessarily illegal" theymos banned their advertising and promoting on the forum starting January 1, 2024.

It doesn't stop the discussion about mixers, but I'd say it is an important statement in line with it on this forum.

Oh well, I guess some people will stop (shit)posting...

I know someone who made $1200/month (not a lot of money in the USA, but still plenty enough in poorer countries).

If people don't like Theymos' decision (that's fine), they should start a decentralized forum, because bitcointalk.org has always been centralized. Deal with it.

[radjie]

I'm saying it isn't fair for govts to say ppl who've used mixers are doing something illegal. They know mixers like banks can be used for good or bad reasons so they shouldn't put all bitcoin traders in one criminal bracket. Criminals have taken advantage of crypto so that's why it's getting a hard time.

Many people abuse mixers for the purpose of embezzling funds from crimes resulting from corruption and other illegal funding, because they can disguise the user's address.  This is an important concern for the government to investigate cases like this, in fact crypto has become the main choice for irresponsible individuals, Because there have been many criminal cases involving misuse of mixer services for certain purposes. Maybe this is one of the main causes, even next year a ban will be implemented on promoting their advertisements here

[arabspaceship123]

It would've been different if criminals didn't use mixers. It's unfortunate bitcoin mixers are being used for bad criminal tumbling cash to launder. That's one of the reasons mixers are going to be banned in the forum next year. If govts form an alliance to ban mixers they'll become illegal. It means ppl shouldn't use them because they'll break the law.

I'm saying it isn't fair for govts to say ppl who've used mixers are doing something illegal. They know mixers like banks can be used for good or bad reasons so they shouldn't put all bitcoin traders in one criminal bracket. Criminals have taken advantage of crypto so that's why it's getting a hard time.

Many people abuse mixers for the purpose of embezzling funds from crimes resulting from corruption and other illegal funding, because they can disguise the user's address.  This is an important concern for the government to investigate cases like this, in fact crypto has become the main choice for irresponsible individuals, Because there have been many criminal cases involving misuse of mixer services for certain purposes. Maybe this is one of the main causes, even next year a ban will be implemented on promoting their advertisements here

[SquirrelJulietGarden]

BlackHatCoiner, could you add this point to OP as additional information for mixer definition, please.

It is not a mixer definition but is part of elements to consider a mixer is illegal or not.

A cryptocurrency mixing service is not necessarily illegal.

It won't change anything because the admin decided and Mixers to be banned but I think with that quote, it can add a useful information for your topic.

[HmmMAA]

Even through Mixers are the current primary target ,
wonder how much longer before LN hubs that do not comply with KYC/AML laws could also be considered as not transparent and become illegal.  
Something to think about if you are running a LN hub and can't afford to follow  KYC/AML reporting regulations.

LN is by default a money transmitter service , and could be also placed in the category of money laundering services as it anonymises transactions . This has been mentioned many times in the past in here and those presenting the problem were consider loonies . A whole community is waiting for the overenginnered "holy graal" which will be proven a waste of 8 years and a serious delay in bitcoin adoption . Probably we will see devs working on LN facing charges like the tornado cash dev at some point ? Authorities work slow but they will act at some point .

[franky1]

Probably we will see devs working on LN facing charges like the tornado cash dev at some point ? Authorities work slow but they will act at some point .

tornado dev didnt get charged for just writing mixer code. he got charged for receiving a fee for being personally involved in shuffling funds used in a crime

its like silk road owner.. if he just operated a craigs list platform where he never touched any coin.never took a fee.. his life story would be very different

LN devs wont be charged just for writing LN code. but if they operate a node channel that allows routing of their funds to process payments for a fee on behalf of others..  and if they take a fee for routing. then they are operating as a MSB. and thus need to be doing things as suggested by regulations. if they dont and if found they processed and profited from routing to a threshold that treats them as a business.. but never registered as one. then trouble begins
if they then ontop are found to have processed criminal/illicit payments. then they can be charged for bigger crimes.

tornado dev didnt get charged for just writing code

[HmmMAA]

Probably we will see devs working on LN facing charges like the tornado cash dev at some point ? Authorities work slow but they will act at some point .

tornado dev didnt get charged for just writing mixer code. he got charged for receiving a fee for being personally involved in shuffling finds used in a crime

I wasn't aware of that , thanks for pointing out .

[Synchronice]

if you want to have a gun. dont advertise it to make yourself a target.. in short: use it dont advertise it
if you want use/be a mixer. dont advertise it to make yourself a target.. in short: use it dont advertise it

I agree with you on that approach but mixers are a little different. Mixers aren't as famous as guns. Someone has to promote mixers in order to increase awareness. There are people on this forum who are capable to promote mixers and take care of their privacy at the same time. If they use it and advertise and are making themselves a target, it's their problem. You, as a member, see the pros and cons of mixers and you can use it without promoting or suggesting it to other people.

blackhatcoiner KNOWS core is the default CORE(central) reference client thus it is the defacto protocol decision maker these days. so wanting to make core become a mixer tool is the biggest red alarm where everyones coins will be treated as suspicious

the idiot wants to think if every coin is suspicious the analysis businesses will give up analysing.. he doesnt understand by making every transaction suspicious they will enact more policy and lobby more regulation..

people can make their own wallet software (forked code of core and rebranded) into a mixer tool manager. however making the reference client everyone use into a mixer is stupidly going to cause more problems for all users.

blackhatcoiner is more interested in sales commissions of promoting mixers, than caring about the repercussions on the users of such

mixers should be just a side niche service not everyone needs. but for the idiots that want to get tagged as suspicion can remain idiots and use mixers to get listed on a watchlist by using mixers..

the solution to being tagged and watchlisted, is not to recruit everyone to be tagged and watchlisted. though i feel blackhat earns more commission if everyone was

We have Monero for better privacy, thanks god, it's legal and untouched and it's not necessary to ruin Bitcoin by making changes that will worsen the situation in crypto world and will lead to more regulations.

By the way, I don't know if blackhatcoiner promotes the mixer usage to gain more profit because he probably doesn't own mixer and profit generated from mixer signature is not enough to live or survive in Europe (he seems to be from Greece). I can't talk about BHcoiner but there are genuinely some people who advocate for protecting privacy.


Look at this, they want to completely control what people do:
EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems
Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU
EU Digital Identity framework (eIDAS) another kind of chat control

[franky1]

if you want to have a gun. dont advertise it to make yourself a target.. in short: use it dont advertise it
if you want use/be a mixer. dont advertise it to make yourself a target.. in short: use it dont advertise it

I agree with you on that approach but mixers are a little different. Mixers aren't as famous as guns. Someone has to promote mixers in order to increase awareness. There are people on this forum who are capable to promote mixers and take care of their privacy at the same time. If they use it and advertise and are making themselves a target, it's their problem. You, as a member, see the pros and cons of mixers and you can use it without promoting or suggesting it to other people.

We have Monero for better privacy, thanks god, it's legal and untouched and it's not necessary to ruin Bitcoin by making changes that will worsen the situation in crypto world and will lead to more regulations.

By the way, I don't know if blackhatcoiner promotes the mixer usage to gain more profit because he probably doesn't own mixer and profit generated from mixer signature is not enough to live or survive in Europe (he seems to be from Greece). I can't talk about BHcoiner but there are genuinely some people who advocate for protecting privacy.


Look at this, they want to completely control what people do:
EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems
Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU
EU Digital Identity framework (eIDAS) another kind of chat control

firstly.. dont cite blog posts of tin foilers.. actually take time to read the regulations the tin foilers paranoia over.. form own opinion
the eIDAS is not actually requiring all EU websites to certificate and then ask for ID.. its actually simply that government run websites will have a log-in security certificate, which they want webbrowsers to have a wallet extension/add-on which recognises a EU government site to allow people to log in using a government ID on government sites (not normal websites). the actual debate is the government wanting browsers to have these wallets installed as default extensions where the wallet is closed source so browser operators are unsure what the wallet actually does.. thats it

secondly
advertising a swap service where whats deposited is not the same coin origins as whats withdrew can be advertised creatively as a different service that does not even sound anything close to the words "mixer, tumbler, obfuscate, AEC, privacy" however those wanting privacy can figure out what the service does wink wink nudge nudge.. cough satoshi dice cough

but blatantly advertising that more people should use mixers and pretending that users of mixers are not monitored more closely is dumb

as for thinking those advertising mixers "on this forum. who are capable to promote mixers and take care of their privacy at the same time" pfft
blackhat isnt capable
angelo is from greece and his home interior walls where he plays with his gadgets is painted blue.
oeleo was a doctor, windfury was into woodwork/carpentry. ud be surprised what these people reveal about themselves.. they dont care about their own privacy, they definitely dont care about other peoples privacy. recruiting people into being monitored more highly..  they just care about promoting a service they get income from

i for months have been suggesting they need to re-vamp the services they promote and tweak things, maybe i was too subtle with the hints. yea yea i dont spoonfeed babies.. but they just wanted to play dumb pretend there is not problems and their promotions offer users guaranteed invisibility .. pfft

[Victorik]

Bitcoin mixing originally doesn't seem to be wrong, but I think it depends on those using it. The Dev has a unique plan for it, but some people with criminal intentions have found a way to use it to hide their track which negates what Bitcoin is supposed to be known for.

[Synchronice]

but blatantly advertising that more people should use mixers and pretending that users of mixers are not monitored more closely is dumb

One has to know how to use mixer safely and overall, things are very complicated. If someone sends money from Electrum lightweight without using proxy but uses mixer, then the privacy of this person is not protected and it's meaningless to use mixer. Also, one has to understand that any mixer can be a honeypot. Things are way more complicated.

as for thinking those advertising mixers "on this forum. who are capable to promote mixers and take care of their privacy at the same time" pfft
blackhat isnt capable
angelo is from greece and his home interior walls where he plays with his gadgets is painted blue.
oeleo was a doctor, windfury was into woodwork/carpentry. ud be surprised what these people reveal about themselves.. they dont care about their own privacy, they definitely dont care about other peoples privacy. recruiting people into being monitored more highly..  they just care about promoting a service they get income from

How are we sure that angelo is from greece, oeleo was a doctor and windfury was into carpentry?
They can claim whatever they want but that doesn't mean what they say is true. I can give you a false senes that I am a professional doctor by talking about anything related to medicine in live chat with you but that doesn't really mean I am a doctor, maybe I am just a person who was obsessed with medicine and spent years to study it at home? Maybe I speak English, Spanish and Russian very well but my native language is none of them but I can pretend that I am a Russian, right? What if all the image they created is false? Maybe I am British and intentionally use American words and sometimes bad grammar in order to create false persona? Maybe that's why I say color instead of colour, favorite instead of favourite and so on?

i for months have been suggesting they need to re-vamp the services they promote and tweak things, maybe i was too subtle with the hints. yea yea i dont spoonfeed babies.. but they just wanted to play dumb pretend there is not problems and their promotions offer users guaranteed invisibility .. pfft

I haven't seen many posts of yours but what you were saying and say here about privacy, etc, makes sense for me.

[Medusah]

I haven't used a mixer ever . Does that mean that everything you ask me to provide is accessible to anyone ? Doesn't bitcoin provide privacy ? Because i think there's a section in the whitepaper that explains specifically that part .

If bitcoin provides privacy to everyone, then it contradicts your initial statement that for one to want privacy they need to prove they are innocent.  Every user can enjoy certain levels of anonymity with bitcoin without proving they are innocent.

You register in bitcointalk.org under a pseudonym.  That means you want some privacy.  Can you please prove to us you are innocent, otherwise why would you want privacy?

And if at any time authorities ask me , i have the proof of source of funds

Lmao.  Very reasonable.  So, if someone cannot prove they own coins (or owned coins in the past), they must be treated as suspects?

[HmmMAA]

I haven't used a mixer ever . Does that mean that everything you ask me to provide is accessible to anyone ? Doesn't bitcoin provide privacy ? Because i think there's a section in the whitepaper that explains specifically that part .

If bitcoin provides privacy to everyone, then it contradicts your initial statement that for one to want privacy they need to prove they are innocent.  Every user can enjoy certain levels of anonymity with bitcoin without proving they are innocent.

You register in bitcointalk.org under a pseudonym.  That means you want some privacy.  Can you please prove to us you are innocent, otherwise why would you want privacy?

And if at any time authorities ask me , i have the proof of source of funds

Lmao.  Very reasonable.  So, if someone cannot prove they own coins (or owned coins in the past), they must be treated as suspects?

Oh my , why i waste my time .
Dear , try to understand the difference between privacy and anonymity . You are trying to create something based on nothing . I want privacy , you want anonymity . Understand the distinction first and then we can procced .
That individual in your example will hold coins from criminal actions . Hello ? Does anybody live in the upper floor ? Or it is uninhabited .

[Medusah]

I am trying to keep up with your posts.  I know the difference between anonymity and privacy.  So you are in favor of privacy, but you are opposed to anonymity.

So what you are saying is that you want privacy, but from strangers on the Internet, not from the state.  The state must surveil everything according to you.  I am not going to counterargue with an Orwellian (we can agree to disagree on this part), but I want to point out that you contradict yourself.

Let me put forward my thought.  You say that the people should be forbidden from mixing, because without mixing you can prove to the authorities that you own addresses affiliated with a criminal (or not).  I say that you can do that with a mixer as well.  What is stopping you?  Take an example with coinjoin.  You can sign a message from the inputs and the outputs. 

Another way to tell you that you are wrong, is that Bitcoin does not provide you enough privacy to begin with.  There are many ways you can mess things up and reveal to the entire network who you are, it is trivial to link your addresses together.  In other words, the state can monitor you (as you want) but strangers  do so as well.

[OgNasty]

Bitcoin mixing may not be money laundering, but money launderers use mixers to launder money. That basically means anytime someone steals crypto and sends them through a mixer, that mixer is now guilty in laundering money and all those associated with it could also be seen as breaking the law. So mixers are all basically just waiting for their own shutdown.