It's not as complicated as it looks but it does take some background to understand.
Max and Olivier are not just launching a new coin. They are (1) absorbing membership from the already existing Crypti XCR coin (the "father" of Lisk) AND AT THE SAME TIME (2) they are going for a second round of funding from new BTC/ETH investors to further develop its technology.
The number of transferring original XCR investors modify the end result seen by the new BTC/ETH investors. The donations of the new BTC/ETH investors modify the end result seen by the original XCR investors. Nobody will know the final results until the ICO is over. The "complicated" charts show all possible future combinations of BTC/ETH and XCR investments in Lisk between Feb 22 and March 21. Only one of these combinations will be "real" at the end of the ICO. That's the two numbers on the charts Max and Olivier will go with - one specific concentration / dilution factor for the XCR donators, and one specific satoshi price for the BTC/ETH donators.
These charts show how these two groups of original XCR investors and new BTC/ETH investors will be merged together into one group of Lisk holders IN A FAIR MANNER. And the proposed method for combining these two groups IS fair. Kudos to Max and Olivier for taking on this task and proposing a path forward to make it succeed.
Canna, when you quote me, please reference me. That's really complicated. It'll take me so long to figure that all out. I might have some crypti so good NEWS for me I guess. It's not as complicated as it looks but it does take some background to understand. Max and Olivier are not just launching a new coin. They are (1) absorbing membership from the already existing Crypti XCR coin (the "father" of Lisk) AND AT THE SAME TIME (2) they are going for a second round of funding from new BTC/ETH investors to further develop its technology. The number of transferring original XCR investors modify the end result seen by the new BTC/ETH investors. The donations of the new BTC/ETH investors modify the end result seen by the original XCR investors. Nobody will know the final results until the ICO is over. The "complicated" charts show all possible future combinations of BTC/ETH and XCR investments in Lisk between Feb 22 and March 21. Only one of these combinations will be "real" at the end of the ICO. That's the two numbers on the charts Max and Olivier will go with - one specific concentration / dilution factor for the XCR donators, and one specific satoshi price for the BTC/ETH donators. These charts show how these two groups of original XCR investors and new BTC/ETH investors will be merged together into one group of Lisk holders IN A FAIR MANNER. And the proposed method for combining these two groups IS fair. Kudos to Max and Olivier for taking on this task and proposing a path forward to make it succeed. |
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ANOTHER BLAST FROM THE PAST:Somebody can explain me, why LISK better than eth?
LISK HOLDS THE FOLLOWING ADVANTAGES OVER ETHERIUM:Javascript language simplicity vs Solidity language complexity Like I said ... easy to write a Javascript compiler to Ethereum bytecode Let me know when it's done...or even started. Even if an Ethereum JavaScript compiler existed, Solidity is still an unstable language - why paste a compiler on top of it?100,000+ JavaScript programmers vs. few Solidity programmers The above argument eliminates this so called advantage of liskThe above argument is vaporware. JavaScript programmers can start coding Lisk dapps right now.Single hash generated vs. trillions of valid but discarded hashes generated to secure blockchain in one blocktime Makes no sense at allI've explained this several times. Churning out trillions of wasted hashes means lots of wasted electricity - like literally a nuclear powerplant's worth for Bitcoin - and is an ever-growing financial overhead that will ultimately kill the coin.Cooperative, efficient blockchain generation vs. competitive, wasteful blockchain generation looks like the same as aboveNo, it's the key reason Lisk can run on a $9 CHIP computer and Ethereum can't. Economies of scale hugely favor Lisk over BTC/ETH.Stable roundtable clockwork forging vs. unsustainable, exponentially growing free-for-all mining Forging is no different than mining ... just different ways to make the currencyIt is so sad to see people that don't understand enough math to get why exponential growth is unsustainable, or why a stable system is different and better from an unstable one.Dapps on individual sidechains vs. dapps on bloated mainchain Ethereum dapps are also sidechains .. lol .. you seem to be uninformedThe Ethereum Guide says its dapps are deployed on the mainchain ( https://gavofyork.gitbooks.io/turboethereum/content/dapps_deployment.html ). Practically, in Ethereum dapps are just specialized "contracts". There's my showdown cards in this poker hand - what's your counter-reference to prove what you are saying about Ethereum sidechains? Prove to me that each dapp in Ethereum has its own separate blockchain as they do in Lisk.Min of 2-4 to max of 101 cheap $35 Pi2 / $9 CHIP microcomputers needed for each sidechain backbone vs. large, unlimited numbers of expensive GPU systems needed for mainchain backbone The GPU rings will not be used once POS for eth sets inSo...PoS for ETH is vaporware, got it. How can you know that Eth PoS will run on microcomputers like Lisk does if ETH PoS finally shows up? What happens to all those sad little GPU miners whose income stream will be cut off?Sidechain dapps permanently free vs. mainchain perpetual "gas" payments required Ah ... What can possibly be the use of the beloved LISK then ... What part of "free" vs. "paying for ETH gas" is so hard to understand? Free is better. Lisk is still the exchange coin of choice within the dapp itself.Difference between Lisk Forging and Ethereum MiningWith Lisk, generating a new block for the blockchain is called "forging" (in the "blacksmith" instead of the "counterfeiter" sense of that term), not mining. Mining is a Bitcoin / Etherium term that refers to competitive generation of thousands of millions of billions of useless hashes looking for a string of leading zeros in the hash that is a "lucky ticket" declaring a particular miner to be the winner of a reward. Forging is a cooperative generation of one and only one necessary hash to secure the Lisk blockchain, for which you are paid a set fee when it's your turn to do it. During the first year a Lisk forger makes 5 Lisk per block forged, which happens like clockwork about once every 17 minutes, for a total of 150K Lisk in the first year. In a pure PoS system, the richest coin holders that set up a forging node get most of the rewards from running those nodes. With DPoS, anybody can set up a forging node no matter how much or how little of the coin they hold, as long as they pay (for Lisk) a 100 coin start fee. Under DPoS, a poor coin holder / node runner gets the same rewards as a rich coin holder / node runner. Thus there is incentive for poor coin holders to run a good node to increase their coin holdings. Since there's a lot more poor coin holders than rich ones, the pool of potential node runners is much bigger. This is a Good Thing. Lisk generating only one hash per blocktime is one of its huge advantages over Bitcoin and Ethereum and their huge waste of resources. Lisk is literally trillions of times more efficient in CPU cycles per block generated compared to Bitcoin or Ethereum. This is why Lisk can use really cheap computers, while Bitcoin and Ethereum are trapped forever to use a hugely expensive, wasteful and unneeded overhead infrastructure - all those warehouses full of mining rigs, whether ASIC or GPU based. Now THAT'S stupid - and most Bitcoin and Ethereum people have no idea just how stupid it is. Lisk Coin Inflation Is Much Lower Than Ethereum Coin Inflation
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What was the ICO Satoshi price for Lisk (without bonus) flat rate?
According to my math, the exact ICO satoshi price for one lisk is BTC0.00017801 Satoshi |
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(Repeating some legitimate questions from five pages back...) @liskhq - Let's talk about 0.2.0 testnet reset. Is there any chance that you can make a list of accounts in the current 0.1.4 testnet and create a 0.2.0 genesis block that gives all current testnet accounts 1000 testnet Lisk? This would go a long way to prevent a crazy rush to the faucet and a thousand direct messages to Joel asking for a transfer of test Lisk. Also, are we going to be limited to 101 votes in the 0.2.0 testnet reboot, as we will be at mainnet launch, or will we have unlimited votes as in the 0.1.4 testnet? Finally, will 0.2.0 testnet enforce BIP39 pass phrases? Will Lisk at launch? https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawikiJust out of curiosity, are you using the BIP39 proposal English word list ( https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/english.txt ) or some other list? |
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@liskhq - Let's talk about 0.2.0 testnet reset.
Is there any chance that you can make a list of accounts in the current 0.1.4 testnet and create a 0.2.0 genesis block that gives all current testnet accounts 1000 testnet Lisk? This would go a long way to prevent a crazy rush to the faucet and a thousand direct messages to Joel asking for a transfer of test Lisk.
Also, are we going to be limited to 101 votes in the testnet reboot, as we will be at mainnet launch, or will we have unlimited votes as in the 0.1.4 testnet?
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... we'll have to test the upcoming version 0.2.0 first. It will developed this week. Stay tuned and participate in the test. Join our chat ( https://lisk.chat) if you are done with all the nonsense written here at BCTalk by people who have no clue about what's going on beside BCTalk. One reason that the signal-to-noise ratio is so bad in this thread is because 1500 people (well, OK, exactly 1468) have left to start a worldwide non-stop conversation about Lisk, in more that a dozen different channels. Join us at Lisk.chat. If you are a FUDster that believes enthusiasm for Lisk is dying just because Max and Oliver are taking a few extra weeks to do this right, you are wrong wrong wrong. |
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Max is going to speak on a conference on the 22. May. Thats a very nice timing to get a good price from the start on.
Which conference is this? Sounds like the launch date was not selected at random... Max: I fight with you guys.
I support this, but only on Saturday nights!  (...and I realize that probably less than 5% of you are old enough to get this joke! I'm old...  ) MalReynolds may get the joke without Google. Sadly, I do. I saw Sir Elton from the 2nd row during his 1974 Yellow Brick Road tour. For $5. With my sister, because I couldn't get a date. http://www.eltonjohn.com/band/1973-1974/http://www.eltonography.com/songs/saturday_nights_alright_for_fighting.html |
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From my phone so short msg.
Max, stay strong and take this ship though this storm. We just left port. A round-the-world voyage of amazing accomplishments lies ahead. You and Oliver have the full support of many here, including me.
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So let's skip the FUD and discuss some bottom-line facts. What broke the Lisk 0.1.4 network was 600 transactions in a minute or 10 transactions per second (10 tps). For years, Bitcoin has been limited to 7 tps until changes made to cope with its DDoS attack last year. https://blog.blockcypher.com/a-bitcoin-spam-attack-post-mortem-s-la-ying-alive-654e914edcf4#.mypx90hpi
http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/BHMW16.pdf@liskhq : What tps figure is the new and improved Lisk 0.1.5 network designed to support? What tps figure has been demonstrated in testing? A major change made by BTC has been modifications in their transaction queueing system that stores excessive incoming transactions for processing during later blocktimes. Basically they store on the machines of individual miners those transactions that cannot be processed immediately. The miners then resubmit those transactions for processing at a later time. What is the buffer size in Lisk 0.1.5 among the 101 Active Delegates (both in bytes and in transactions) that stores "excessive" transactions for later processing during future blocktimes? |
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why still no launch yet?
There is another update coming to be loaded onto testnet nodes for second pre-launch stress test. |
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The latest reports will be announced on sunday. Just need to be patient to wait for the launch date and the listed exchanges.
thanks for your reply, just waiting here. There is a hell of a lot of activity going on behind the scenes in the testnet, getting ready for the jump to mainnet. Your patience will be rewarded with one awesome coin. |
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Any people can translate ? thx open it in chrome and hit the translate button in the upper right |
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I recommend the Lisk community really taking time to study how the dynamic worked in Bitshares. When delegates refused to update the community on what they were doing, voters would put pressure on them to either show value or get voted out. For the most part, it worked as intended. Nobody rides for free.
I'm not talking about some type of central code nonsense, just a recommendation to the community to set standards and vote accordingly. I went through about about 2 years of their threads on DPoS. Lot of lessons learned, it is in our best interest in the Lisk community to learn what went right and wrong and apply the best practices.
I'm not a DPoS expert, however, from everything I read here, there's still a LOT of misunderstanding. The OMG eyez will be rich by running a delegate is missing the point. If delegate pay is high enough, it will allow those delegates to hire workers to help build the ecosystem.
Can you provide links, please? |
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If i setup delegate, and somebody vote for me. Its possible to find who vote for me or its anonymous process ?
The voting is a normal Lisk transaction. If the account that sends you a vote has been named by its owner, then you know who voted for you. If they never named their account, it's an anonymous vote. There are programs people have written to show a table of who voted for who. How do I vote?
Go to the Lisk client, open your account, click on "blockchain" on the left hand side, then click the "delegates" tab at the top. Look up the delegate you want to vote for and click in the box beside his name. Then click on "vote" in the upper right corner. Thanks for info! Note that I changed "blockchain" to "forging" in my post, I made a mistake. Please correct it in your quote as well, thanks! |
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If i setup delegate, and somebody vote for me. Its possible to find who vote for me or its anonymous process ?
The voting is a normal Lisk transaction. If the account that sends you a vote has been named by its owner, then you know who voted for you. If they never named their account, it's an anonymous vote. There are programs people have written to show a table of who voted for who. How do I vote?
Go to the Lisk client, open your account, click on "forging" on the left hand side, then click the "delegates" tab at the top. Look up the delegate you want to vote for and click in the box beside his name. Then click on "vote" in the upper right corner. |
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- Dapps are some sort of apps. People know apps but don't know why there shoud be a network surrounding them and why this network needs things like wallets and coins.
- The coins are the fuel of the network? Why?
- Give me an example of a dapp that needs a network (blockchain) with expensive coins in order to make things work.
Your average Joe.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IOAvXidA5tIJU4ods3_W_SWszCsry4xiW29ChOTQly0/edit?usp=sharingThe first person to create a Lisk sports betting dapp becomes a billionaire. |
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I think it is good that the delegate reward and motivation is getting a good public discussion. I am biased because I want to be a delegate. Because of that bias, I will never say anything negative about those who want to set up nodes that would share their reward with others somehow. Good luck to you.
As for more delegates - 1001 instead of 101, to spread the wealth around - that ain't gonna happen. Lisk has a 10 second blocktime. There is a limit to how many delegates you can coordinate worldwide in 10 seconds, and that number is around 101.
Here is the key point that needs to be at the center of all delegate reward discussions:
TANSTAAFL = There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
TANSTAFFL = The computers that run Lisk have got to be paid for somehow.
If Lisk were a start-up business there would be this huge 500 page IT plan about how many computers to get, and what kind of bandwidth, and what kind of support services to buy, and growth projections, and parts lists, and on and on and on. And oh, yeah, a budget.
Lisk is not a startup business and there is no master IT plan and no budget. We are making this up as we go along and we are less than 90 days in.
Initial indications are Lisk is gong to be a BIG DEAL with LOTS OF GROWTH and LOTS OF TRAFFIC. That means some big-ass computer power in the back room. That's gonna cost big money. Big money in year one, and probably bigger money in year five when the rewards are only 20% of what they are in year one. How much money will be needed to run all these servers and support systems like DDoS firewalls? Nobody knows.
When you are talking about "delegate rewards", you are talking about "how to pay for the Lisk computers".
Max had to make a wild-ass guess on how much resources / Lisk / money to pay for the Lisk computer / delegates. He came up with the "150K Lisk rewards per delegate in year one, tapering down to 30K Lisk in years five and beyond" plan. Will this plan throw too much or too little resources / Lisk / money at the required computers and the people / delegates that run them? Probably. Is this a problem? That depends.
Community, err on the side of paying delegates too much over too little. Paying delegates "too much" means the community may grumble, profit-sharing delegates are voted in, and Lisk continues. Paying delegates "too little" means the delegates quit, the computers stop, and Lisk dies.
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...I think it is good to remember those funds can get used for great initiatives.
True true true. |
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