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8581  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Once Bitcoins become a serious threat ... on: August 26, 2012, 08:13:40 PM
Quote
But what they can do with 51%?  Not much.

They can omit transactions from the blocks and they can go back some blocks and double spend transactions sent to them.  That's the extent of it.  They can't spend my coins.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.

With 51% they can destroy bitcoin, they can happily stop bitcoin with that. They control everything. They can go back months in the blockchain, rewrite all that and yes, they CAN spend your coins, if your coins were mined in the blocks that they reverted.

Not really.  In time layer defenses will make 51% less effective.  Bitcoin is what the consensus of users say it is.  One option would be checkpointing more frequently.   Anything prior to a checkpoint can never be double spent.    Another option would be to change the hashing algorithm.   Given the lowest cost method of performing a 51% attack is ASICs that cost would be utterly wasted.  Tens or maybe hundreds of millions spent would be wiped out and worthless by a small change to the algorithm.

Finally it is possible that an entity could kill Bitcoin but they won't kill cryptocurrency.   Bitcoin is like napster.  Smart entities would realize then spending a huge sum to kill it would only spawn dozens of replacements which are even harder to kill.   Now this doesn't mean users won't lose money, it doesn't mean cryptocurrency won't be set back years (maybe even a decade) but eventually some future alt-chain will become the "bittorrent" equivalent and will be far harder to kill.

If hypothetically Bitcoin was killed by a 51% attack (or more likely never ending sequence of 51% attacks) I would imagine the next cryptocurrency could implement two major countermeasures
1) Use a variety of hashing algorithms.   i.e. from a pool of 20 algorithms, the algorithm used is rotated every block.
2) Use a "proof of history" system to dynamically checkpoint the primary chain once it is more than say older than 7 days.
8582  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: centralized post of pirate payouts or other related news to the closing. on: August 26, 2012, 08:02:02 PM
He could own 10 million BTC tomorrow if has a longer blockchain. They may not be worth a lot of dollars but it would let hem repay his debt as promised.

51% attack wouldn't give him the ability to own coins he doesn't have the private keys to.

Quote
Fair enough, but if he sold or is about to sell the actual coins he received, its still a tangible (pun intended) sum of money.
It certainly is but it wouldn't involve repaying anyone or a 51% attack.  

Step 1) Acquire coins
Step 2) Sell coins
Step 3) There is no need for step three you already have ~$1M gift wrapped and handed to you by idiots (assume ~100K real coins deposited and sold @ avg price of $10 ea).


Quote
disclaimer: Im not seriously arguing pirate is doing a 51% attack, but I just want to show how it could theoretically fit what we know.
Oh I understand that I am just saying even with an imaginary 51% attack he still wouldn't have the potential to pull it off (or at least not at a profit).  If he had to do all those and still lose a huge sum of money it would be far easier to just walk away with a guaranteed profit.
8583  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: centralized post of pirate payouts or other related news to the closing. on: August 26, 2012, 07:53:42 PM
But, but, but... if he had the resources to pull off a 51% attack... wouldn't he already be rich and powerful and not need to pull a ponzi scheme?

IM not saying its a 51% attack, but if it were, when would be the best time to cash in? WHen BTC value and market depth peaks, and you can sell soon to be worthless coins for as much as possible hard dollars. So he could sell his 500K coins now, then publish his alternate chain, and pay back as much BTC interest as he wants.

There is nowhere he could spend 500K BTC that he wouldn't get caught.  The only place which could handle that kind of action would be MtGox.  Now lets pretend it is his goal to send 500K BTC to MtGox, exchange it for dollars, and cause a 51% to return the coins to himself.   If he sold 500K BTC on the exchange the USD would be limited to MtGox AML policies and it would be kinda obvious when the 51% attack occurs.  At the highest level MtGox requires notarized document with an apostle seal from the state and even then it is limited to only $100K per day.  To unload 500K BTC would require almost 60 days.  Of course in 60 days he won't owe 500K BTC he would owe 908K BTC.  So even if he managed to rob MtGox of $6M (sent to his bank account by bank wire, and his identity confirmed w/ notorized docs approved by the State of TX).  He would now owe creditors more than the amount he stole.

Now hypothetically he could REPAY THE INVESTORS FIRST, then do a 51% attack and in the alt-chain he doesn't repay the investors and instead sends the coins back to himself.    Still to do that would require him actually having the 500K BTC.  That 500K number is on paper only.  It never existed.  It includes weeks and months of compounded ponzi interest.  Even if he didn't spend a single coin he likely has half that or maybe a third of that.   Of course 500K BTC isn't enough to pay the creditors.  He now owes ~546K BTC and that number is increasing by 5000 BTC per day (or ~4 BTC per minute).  So hypothetically if he did have 500K BTC AND the ability to pull off a 51% attack he would still be short.

8584  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: nonce values count & hashrate on: August 26, 2012, 07:24:18 PM
It isn't in that code.  The rest of the blockheader (midstate) is only incremented outside of that code.

Simple version.
1) Calculate all elements of blockheader (merkle root hash, timestamp, difficulty, version, prior block hash) except the nonce.
2) Pass those values to the miner
3) Increment through all 4 billion possible nonces.  Add the current nonce to the rest of blockhash and hash it.
4a) if share is found return it.
5) wait for new blockheader.
8585  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: How could Pirate fuck your brains so well that even now many believe in him? on: August 26, 2012, 07:10:55 PM
The debt continuing to accrue interest and I expect a full reconciliation to be made.

LOLZ.  

Pirate debt has increased by 52,303 BTC* just in the period of time since he ended the operation.  That is $549,270 at current exchange rates.  Even if he was profitable and could afford the interest obligation while operating, since shutting down he racked up another half million in debt.  In another five days he will have racked up over a million USD in additional debt since the shutdown.  His interest only obligation is now $57,993 per day or $40.27 per minute.

All that ignores the fact that the debt is legally unenforceable (violates usary laws in the US) and that BTC can be hidden from a judgement with trivial ease.  So the debtor can't be collected against and has 40 new reasons every minute to walk away.  Of course that even assume he could pay if he wanted to but it is increasingly obviously he can't.  Even if he could only pay say half doing so would save him almost $30,000 per day in additional interest yet he hasn't.  

So please, humor me I am just curious at which point will you no longer "expect a full reconciliation to be made"?  Another week (when he now owes ~$6.3 mil USD), another month (when he owes ~ $8.2 mil USD), 180 days (when he owes ~$46 mil USD)?



* Based on the claim by Pirate that the "trust" had 500K BTC when he shut it down.
8586  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Once Bitcoins become a serious threat ... on: August 26, 2012, 06:53:59 PM
Well two counter points.

You say ONCE Bitcoin becomes a serious threat.  If/when that happens tx volume and thus revenue for miners will likely be significantly higher.

This illustrates why ASICs are necessary.  The banks can only kill bitcoin "on the cheap" using a more efficient technology.  Once the "good miners" have that there is no cheap option just pure brute force.

The combination of those factors means if Bitcoin is every successful enough that banks need to attack it (hint: banks haven't attacked PayPal) the costs would likely be in the billions. 
8587  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: need 130 bitcoins on: August 26, 2012, 03:32:31 AM
Gonna need to be a "little" more specific.  How do you intend to pay, what country/state, etc.
8588  Economy / Currency exchange / Re: I have Bitcoin I'd like to exchange for Liberty Reserve USD ASAP on: August 26, 2012, 03:05:49 AM
https://www.libertyreserve.com/en/login

Liberty reserves has been in "scheduled maintenance" since the 20th.
It simply is impossible to exchange it.  Even if you could it might be a good idea to find out if LR is worth anything before accepting any deals.
8589  Economy / Economics / Re: How to stabilize the Bitcoin price. on: August 25, 2012, 10:56:13 PM
You don't really believe that do you?
8590  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Bitcoin Insurance on: August 25, 2012, 10:42:17 PM
Quote
A can make 35% interest in 3 months with 100% of his capital covered RISKFREE!!!

35% Riskfree is an oxymoron.
8591  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Scammer: CryptoXChange. They have stolen $9,320. Non responsive in two weeks. on: August 25, 2012, 10:07:41 PM
DeathandTaxes,

Your wire will be resolved tomorrow, I appologise we have had our main accounts person away and some communication issues between people internally which has caused this, the wire sent out had been returned due to an input error with details when another staff member did it.

Everything will be back to normal as of tomorrow 27/08/2012 - Australian Business Time. Everyone will be back to work as normal.

Your wire will be processed again and we will email you the receipt, again we are sorry for the inconvenience!


Regards

Cryptoxchange

Glad to hear it will be resolved.  I will be looking for a receipt Monday.
8592  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Tx fees going up. What is zero fee mining? What is fair pay? on: August 25, 2012, 10:01:04 PM
Miner's costs are in USD (or EUR,etc).  For protection what matters is the real cost to attack the network.
No, what matters is cost vs benefit/profit for the attacker.

Yeah and unless you know of any fixed BTC cost mining hardware or flat rate BTC power companies the attackers cost are also in USD/EUR.  So the net gain has to be measured against the cost to the attacker which is primarily in fiat currencies.   If it cost an attacker $200M to attack the network then the reward has to be more than $200M.


8593  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: How could Pirate fuck your brains so well that even now many believe in him? on: August 25, 2012, 09:56:11 PM
Stating the obvious: pirate payed his interest so far, regularly and punctually. The amount in each account didn't take more than a week to calculate until now.

I often read that people say something like 'yeah, he might not have all the BTC right now, but he will play the markets and come up with it'.

Assuming that pirates ID known to the forum isn't a fake and that the one showing up in Vegas was really him I would say that he himself has a strong believe in the 'system' he is/was running. Probably he had only best intentions when he started and really believed he could gamble this interest out of the market. Bitcoin fluctuates enough to make one % each and every day if you are only skilled enough. Or maybe if you would only have enough funds to control the price.
Turns out: nope, not so easy. The thing grew over his head, more and more juggling with the funds until it finally collapsed. I guess he is far from the maximum profit he would been able to make if he would have plotted this as a criminal enterprise from the beginning.
Lacking of funds means more risk gets taken to make good for the losses, etc. The rest is often written history.

That is pretty common in ponzi schemes.  Madoff for example ran a traditional hedge fund for for well over two decades until he made some really bad trades.  Fearing his clients would move their money he faked trades for the quarter.  Of course now he essentially had "juice" running on the difference between the real books and the fake books.   As investors continued to expect returns on the fake numbers that difference required him to fake trades qtr after qtr.  Eventually he reached the point he could no longer "go legit" if he wanted to.   He was committed to the ponzi because deviaiton from it would get him caught.   Of course no ponzi can continue forever but he was "stuck" so he played it well and kept the ponzi cashflow + (more coming in than paying out) for years.  Had the economic downturn not spooked investors he might still be paying out dividends regularly but they would be fake and eventually something would have caused the ponzi to fail.

Madoff offered ~11% per year.  Pirate offered 7% per week.  Pretty obvious why one imploded much faster than the other.
8594  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Next best coin to mine after ASIC takes over bitcoin? on: August 25, 2012, 07:55:26 PM
Once again you make more money selling shovels then mining yourself.

BFL could do that and make a couple million USD over the next year or they could sell the rigs and make a couple million USD on day 0 and now the miners take all the future risk.
6 months later they can then can cut their prices 50% and sell another couple million of the same rigs at half the price.
6 months later they can then they can cut their prices 50% again and sell another couple million USD worth of  rigs at 25% of the original price.
6 months later they can then they can cut their prices 50% again and sell another couple million USD worth of rigs at 12.5% of the original price.

If some competitor comes along they will be looking to maximize the return on their huge NRE so while each company may have to reduce their prices somewhat a price war hurts both companies and it is the miners who benefit.  The markup on the actual chip (not design, NRE, etc) but the actual chip is 10,000%+.  So years and years from now BFL could be selling the same chips (now maybe 1/20th of the original price on day 0).  Eventually they move to a new process (i.e 45nm) and start the game all over again.

It is much more profitable to sell shovels and anyone who has enough funds to be in that position already knows that.
8595  Economy / Economics / Re: Governments will never jump in... on: August 25, 2012, 07:32:09 PM
I did not mention apocalyptic evens.

My point is: If bitcoin were to become a threat to governmental power structure and the economy is crumbling already why should they hesitate to take it down with em if all it takes is the push of a button?
People in here like to talk about revolutionary acts and dilute themselves by thinking they could accomplish something without owning infrastructure.

There are numerous ways for a government to bring down an established bitcoin economy if it is not well protected. No way to list them all.
But there are almost no ways if it is.

You do realize that shutting down the internet would anhilate the US economy.  We are talking mass riots in every major city, disruption of commerce on the scale of trillions.  When some of those riots turn  bad it is going to be city wide looting.  What is the govt going to do then start executing people in the street?  All this because of Bitcoin.

The sheer lunacy of it is there are nodes outside the US, so what is next the US govt launches ICBM on every country who has internet connectivity.  The end of civilization as we know it, deaths of billions, and in the counter attack the destruction of the very government who acted to stop the threat that Bitcoin is to the government.

Probably not.  Bitcoin may be marginalized, it may be routinely attacked but it will continue to exist.  Just like any other technology that has gone global and is in the hands of the people you can't put the genie back in the bottle.  Note: this doesn't mean the price of Bitcoin will go up.   Its usage could shrink massively but it isn't going away.
8596  Economy / Marketplace / Re: BTCST account for sale! on: August 25, 2012, 06:17:40 PM
As you can see he already said the bond is dead and it's value is 0. He also said he will only pay bondholders if pirate pays in full.

Thus if Pirate repays in full and he pays the bondholders he has honored the contract.  A sale if any doesn't change that.

Goat could:
sell the underlying asset & honor the contract - legit
not sell the underlying asset & honor the contract - legit
sell the underlying asset & not honor the contract - scam
not sell the underlying asset & not honor the contract - scam

Selling or not selling doesn't change his obligation.  
8597  Economy / Marketplace / Re: BTCST account for sale! on: August 25, 2012, 06:15:21 PM
If he does do this then he is a F___ing IDIOT.  He just stole his bondholders money.  I guess we will wait and see what he does.


Well he may be an idiot (although given the odds of Pirate repaying in full are low the buyer may be the bigger idiot).  You thinking he is an idiot doesn't mean he stole anything. 
Now IF Pirate repays in full and he doesn't honor his contract then yes he is a thief but .... pst secret hint .... that could happen regardless of if he sells or not.

Personally I believe Goat will honor his debts, I just think he realizes the odds are <100% that Pirate will repay.  If you owned something you believed was worth less than what others believe it is worth the smart decision is to sell it.   
8598  Economy / Marketplace / Re: BTCST account for sale! on: August 25, 2012, 06:12:37 PM
Goat, I really hope this is not the bondholders account... If pirate pays back and you don't stand to your word of buying back, you won't get away with just a scammer tag Smiley

Why do you assume how won't repay? 

He is the operating of the fund.  He could sell the debt for say 10K BTC.  If Pirate repays he owes 40K and takes a 30K loss.  If Pirates doesn't repay then he profits 10K.  As long as he intends to repay the bond holders there is no fraud.   Companies sell DEFAULTED debt all the time.  Default doesn't mean 0 bitcents on the coin.   It simply means the debtor has not met their obligations. 

You are wrong here.  If he sells the account for 10k BTC, then those funds belong to the bondholders.  He can't just pocket 10K BTC.  The debt is owed to the bondholders not GOAT.


No you are wrong.  You bought an asset which is a derivative of Pirate's ponzi, but the terms of the contract gave you no right or ownership to the underlying asset. 
Your have no right to any proceeds of the sale of the underlying debt, and nothing in the contract prohibits Goat from selling it.

One point is very clear, a sale doesn't change Goat's obligation.  If Pirate defaults he owes you nothing.  If Pirate repays in full he owes you the full amount.
8599  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Tx fees going up. What is zero fee mining? What is fair pay? on: August 25, 2012, 06:03:05 PM
Miner's costs are in USD (or EUR,etc).  For protection what matters is the real cost to attack the network.  IF miners are compensated 10x as much then more hashing power will be added and the cost to attack the network will increase.
8600  Economy / Marketplace / Re: BTCST account for sale! on: August 25, 2012, 05:50:23 PM
Goat, I really hope this is not the bondholders account... If pirate pays back and you don't stand to your word of buying back, you won't get away with just a scammer tag Smiley

Why do you assume how won't repay? 

He is the operating of the fund.  He could sell the debt for say 10K BTC.  If Pirate repays he owes 40K and takes a 30K loss.  If Pirates doesn't repay then he profits 10K.  As long as he intends to repay the bond holders there is no fraud.   Companies sell DEFAULTED debt all the time.  Default doesn't mean 0 bitcents on the coin.   It simply means the debtor has not met their obligations. 
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