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Author Topic: Tx fees going up. What is zero fee mining? What is fair pay?  (Read 3653 times)
DrHaribo (OP)
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August 05, 2012, 11:26:59 AM
 #1

From http://bitminter.com/block/btc/000000000000029b07f1093ad8bea755a4f30419d79118612d741f0ba2f860d7

Quote
Total income (minting + fees): 55.26955000 BTC

Amount paid out to users: 55.26955000 BTC

If BitMinter didn't pay out the income from transaction fees that would be like a 10+% fee for mining this block.

What is zero fee? Can you even determine zero fee for PPS?

Are you paying a 10% fee at your pool?

At BitMinter we pay out all the coins that come in. You can choose whether you want to donate some back. That is zero fee.

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August 05, 2012, 11:34:08 AM
 #2

Of course not every block has 5 BTC in fees. But the transaction fees are steadily rising: http://blockchain.info/charts/transaction-fees

Something to consider when you think about mining fees.

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August 05, 2012, 11:41:27 AM
 #3

 Smiley
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August 06, 2012, 01:27:37 PM
 #4

DrHaribo - out of interest, do you maximise your Tx fees? From those charts I see an average Tx fee of around 0.17 btc per block - do you know what your average is?

Tx fees are set to become a larger part of a miners income. They will increase as bitcoin is more widely adopted as a means of exchange, and will make up an even larger proportion of earnings as the block reward halves. If miners don't mine at a pool that passes on the Tx then they need to make sure they're getting some benefit in exchange or should move to a pool that does pass Tx fees on.

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DeathAndTaxes
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August 06, 2012, 01:51:15 PM
 #5

I think he was just using that block as an example.  

Fees run about 20 BTC per day (looking @ 7 day average) compared to about 5 BTC per day at the begining of the year.  There is really nothing that can be done to maximize that other than no rejecting paying txs.

That works out to only ~0.14 BTC per block or ~0.3%.  The larger point is that fees will continue to grow as a % of miner's revenue and miner's should be aware what is happening to that revenue.   0.3% may not seem like a lot but lets fast forward to January.  Hypothetically the block reward is now 25 BTC, the avg fee per tx has doubled, and the tx volume has tripled.  That puts fees in the 3% to 3.5% range.  As time increases the issue becomes more relevant. 

Congrats on BitMinter being the largest pool that charges no fee AND pays out all fees collected.  The true "no fee" option.
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August 06, 2012, 02:04:09 PM
Last edit: August 07, 2012, 11:17:10 PM by organofcorti
 #6

I think he was just using that block as an example.  
Sure, I was just wondering if he was providing his miners with extra reward by trying to include as many high value Tx as possible.
Quote
Fees run about 20 BTC per day (looking @ 7 day average) compared to about 5 BTC per day at the begining of the year.  There is really nothing that can be done to maximize that other than no rejecting paying txs.
I didn't realise that - I'd thought pools could select which Tx they included in the block and assumed they could prioritise based on Tx fee - incorrect?

Quote
That works out to only ~0.14 BTC per block or ~0.3%.  The larger point is that fees will continue to grow as a % of miner's revenue and miner's should be aware what is happening to that revenue.   0.3% may not seem like a lot but lets fast forward to January.  Hypothetically the block reward is now 25 BTC, the avg fee per tx has doubled, and the tx volume has tripled.  That puts fees in the 3% to 3.5% range.  As time increases the issue becomes more relevant.  

That's pretty much what I was getting at although I wasn't game enough to put a prediction on it. Fast forward another four years and miners will be depending on Tx fees almost as much as the block reward.

Quote
Congrats on BitMinter being the largest pool that charges no fee AND pays out all fees collected.  The true "no fee" option.

And given the steady increase in Bitminter's piece of the network hashrate, many other people are starting to feel the same way. They're where Ozcoin was at not so long ago, with a similar steady rise in percentage of network hashrate.



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DrHaribo (OP)
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August 06, 2012, 02:49:36 PM
 #7

Sure, I was just wondering if he was providing his miners with extra reward by trying to include as many high value Tx as possible.

We try to maximize our share of the daily 0.3% fee income. But yeah, 10% income from fees is rare, I was just using it to make a point. Tongue

Currently you lose about 0.3% if you don't get tx fees and about 0.5% if you don't get namecoins. Still only 0.8% but after the reward halving it will be much higher and could make 3% mining at Deepbit seem cheap.

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August 07, 2012, 11:15:21 PM
 #8

Of course not every block has 5 BTC in fees. But the transaction fees are steadily rising: http://blockchain.info/charts/transaction-fees

Something to consider when you think about mining fees.



All the more significant when block reward halves.  This is a good selling point.
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August 22, 2012, 11:49:26 PM
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Ozcoin is now paying txn fees to DGM miners Cheesy

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August 23, 2012, 06:26:32 PM
 #10

Ozcoin is now paying txn fees to DGM miners Cheesy

Good stuff Smiley

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August 23, 2012, 07:41:45 PM
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So by 2029 when each block only rewards ~1.5 BTC, TX fees will make up most of the incentive to continue mining?

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August 23, 2012, 07:46:55 PM
 #12

https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/e/e3/Total_bitcoins_over_time_graph.png

So by 2029 when each block only rewards ~1.5 BTC, TX fees will make up most of the incentive to continue mining?
Maybe. Or perhaps the exchange rate will be $100/BTC!

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August 24, 2012, 06:40:19 AM
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I though more than 5 pools paid out txns to miners
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Comparison_of_mining_pools

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August 24, 2012, 07:02:05 AM
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Bitlc.net pays tx fees as well, although it's not listed on that page as doing so.

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DrHaribo (OP)
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August 24, 2012, 12:19:38 PM
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Only the finest pools pay tx fees. It's an exclusive club.  Grin

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August 24, 2012, 12:23:36 PM
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Only the finest pools pay tx fees. It's an exclusive club.  Grin
++  Grin

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August 25, 2012, 03:45:27 PM
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I though more than 5 pools paid out txns to miners
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Comparison_of_mining_pools


Hmm, no abc pool in the list, I wonder what could that mean  Grin

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August 25, 2012, 04:17:35 PM
 #18

https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/e/e3/Total_bitcoins_over_time_graph.png
So by 2029 when each block only rewards ~1.5 BTC, TX fees will make up most of the incentive to continue mining?
Maybe. Or perhaps the exchange rate will be $100/BTC!
The exchange rate isn't very relevant for this. If the miners get paid fewer coins for each block and transactions stay the same or higher in bitcoins then they will have less protection compared to today.
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August 25, 2012, 06:03:05 PM
 #19

Miner's costs are in USD (or EUR,etc).  For protection what matters is the real cost to attack the network.  IF miners are compensated 10x as much then more hashing power will be added and the cost to attack the network will increase.
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August 25, 2012, 09:33:38 PM
 #20

Miner's costs are in USD (or EUR,etc).  For protection what matters is the real cost to attack the network. 
No, what matters is cost vs benefit/profit for the attacker.
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