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861  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Go and download the Alexa toolbar! on: April 19, 2011, 09:31:17 AM
GitHub for example boasts about their Alexa ranking on their wikipedia page (see summary section to the right) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GitHub
Just to be pedantic: Wikipedia considers Alexa ratings credible. (It's not GitHub's Wikipedia page, it's a Wikipedia page about GitHub: Wikipedia editors control it, not the GitHub developers. For the same reason, the Wikipedia article on bitcoin would struggle to become an advertisement for bitcoin - Wikipedia editors unconnected to bitcoin would resist).

Either or.

If wikipedia considers the alexa ranking to be credible, then so should we. Wikipedia is to Encyclopedia Britannica as Bitcoin is to the USD.
862  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / What happens if I mis type a bitcoin user's address when sending money? on: April 19, 2011, 09:29:29 AM
Say for example I want to pay a seller on a forum for an item.

I copy and paste the seller's bitcoin address, but after pressing ctrl+v to paste their address they added an extra v to the end of their address.

What will happen when I send bitcoins to their address + v?

What if somehow they deleted their first character as well by accident so that the address was a perfect length?

Would the transaction simply remain in bitcoin purgatory?
863  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Frustrated with Ease of Use on: April 19, 2011, 09:07:50 AM
If I'm standing in front of Mr. Hot Dog Vendor with my BTC ATM card, how long will I be holding up the line waiting for transaction confirmation?

Up to 1.5 hours, depending on the price of the hot dog.

And depending on how many confirmations Mr Hot Dog Vendor wants before trusting that the transaction is valid.

And depending on whether you've opted to pay a transaction fee or not.

Sorry I don't have any links at the moment for where this has previously been discussed... but it has, and it's not as bad as I make it sound Wink



Not true. By the time hot dog vendors start accepting bitcoins. There will be a third party that creates "instant" transactions. Gavin said it best, instant transactions by your bank are a fantasy. Most bank transactions take a few days.
864  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: does the Ven threaten the bitcoin? on: April 19, 2011, 08:55:02 AM
Their alexa ranking is nothing. They are hardly used by anyone.

Our alexa ranking is rocking however, all the more reason to join bitcoin! To increase our alexa ranking, please download the alexa toolbar now!!!
865  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How a social attack could defeat a prosperous Bitcoin network on: April 19, 2011, 08:49:53 AM
In this thread I will propose a simple legal and social approach which will allow a government entity to take control over Bitcoin with minimal resistance. This attack is, in a way, much simpler than the various technical ones (building a super computer, etc).

There have been a number of threads in this forum regarding ways a freedom-hostile entity, usually a government, could take control over Bitcoin and destroy its benefits such as inflation resistance and privacy. These threads so far have focused on the idea that the entity would either set up a super computer to become the largest miner in the world, or that the entity would hunt down the largest miners in existence and regulate/coerce them. The usual counterargument is that Bitcoin is too small to warrant that kind of attention, and later it will be too large to effectively mount such attacks.

Unfortunately, the very popularity of a large Bitcoin network would open it up to being taken over by tricking the average uneducated user. The attack would become more effective the more widespread Bitcoin adoption is. This is true even if all of the following wildly positive assumptions were true:

  • Bitcoin is a great success: you can even buy your vegetables in microcoins.
  • Economy is booming because of the lack of transaction fees. People love using Bitcoin since everything is cheaper without all the Visa and Mastercard middlemen.
  • Mining operations are plentiful making it impractical to take over 51% of all mining activity.
  • Bitcoin is so ingrained in public culture that making it outright unlawful to use Bitcoin would be difficult without resistance.

Let's say our freedom-hostile entity is China. Here's how China would gain essential control over even this huge Bitcoin success in 8 easy steps:

1. China makes the public case that while Bitcoin is great, it is still used in part for terrorism, money laundering and crime. This will drum up political and public support for "something to be done", even if shutting down Bitcoin altogether is not on the table.

2. China creates its own Bitcoin client. Let's say they call it Bitcoin Patriot Edition. The only visible difference between Patriot Edition and the regular edition is that Patriot Edition requires a validated national ID or social security number to use. The government openly tracks the association between your wallet and your identity and says this is a feature, not a drawback. The software is free and voluntary, but if you have nothing to hide why wouldn't you use it? You do want to help fighting terrorism, don't you? As we know, regular people love hearing this argument and gobble it up.

3. China waits a good bit of time to allow the software to spread without alarm from the Bitcoin community. Perhaps several years. We will all laugh about how stupid these average users are for switching to the Patriot Edition.

4. China makes a law that requires banks, money exchanges, commercial stores and other major commercial entities to use Patriot Edition. Most people won't care because they're not banks nor major commercial entities. People generally don't care when people they don't know suffer, and besides these banks are rich.

5. China begins to promote the law from point 4 ("Patriot Protected Economy") internationally. The one thing that unifies governments across the globe is the desire to collect taxes and even countries which normally hate each other cooperate when it comes to tracking untaxed money (see Switzerland's bank privacy laws). So the law will spread easily. The international leadership community will describe it in glorious hyperbole, saying how it's protecting everyday people from fraud and crime.

6. China flips a secret switch. From now on, you cannot send Bitcoins to the Patriot Edition unless you too run the Patriot Edition. People are perhaps a little miffed but since your bank, your exchange, the grocery store and everyone else you deal with already uses the Patriot Edition, you make the 'upgrade'. China also buys or seizes Bitcoin.org at this point and makes Patriot Edition the 'official' edition. Most users will not notice nor care.

7. The Patriot Edition "upgrade" becomes viral because your friends are upgrading and you can't send money to them anymore without this edition. Yes, intermediaries start popping up allowing you to send money through them from vanilla Bitcoin, but do you really want to pay those fees? Avoiding fees was one of the reasons your choose Bitcoin to begin with. Easier to just upgrade. The Patriot Edition is now the most common edition of the Bitcoin software on the planet, and it's entirely controlled by China and a coalition of willing governments internationally.

8. Flip the second switch. The Patriot Edition now rejects mining activity by non Patriot Edition versions of the software. This is possible since Patriot Edition is used by almost every user - much more than 50%. Most people won't notice because they all use the Patriot Edition and the commercial entities they communicate with do so as well. The 'old guard' Bitcoin network is essentially segmented and frozen out. The value of any coins remaining in the old segment crashes since their proof of transactions cannot be trusted anymore, having been corrupted by the Patriot Edition.

The only reason this attack was possible was because the broad majority of the Bitcoin users were no longer libertarians and futurists like those who populate this forum. At step 6 very few complained that their freedoms were being taken away, and those who did were quickly shut down as 'terrorist sympathisers'. Even people who were just uncertain about the change didn't really know what to do because they weren't technical, and bitcoin.org said the Patriot Edition was the right choice.

There was very little economical disruption since the frog was boiled gradually.

Now the majority of the Bitcoin advantages are gone.

  • It is no longer decentralised: Patriot Edition is centrally controlled.
  • Inflation is perfectly possible: Patriot Edition can at any point set new rules for how hard it is to make coins or how many may exist, or indeed, even what a coin is.
  • It is no longer open: not everyone can use Bitcoin anymore. If your Bitcoin Patriot Edition license is revoked, you can only use the now devalued, tiny economy of vanilla Bitcoin.
  • 'No small print' is no longer true. The Patriot Edition can log everything you do, choose which transactions to allow. Most people will not even realise this because people are uneducated.
  • 'No freeze' is no longer true. The Patriot Edition can freeze your account at any time. It has already marked all bitcoins in the 'old guard' economy as badcoins and will never touch them. It can mark your coins as badcoins whenever it pleases, or even transfer them against your will to the coalition of willing.

Of course 'old guard' Bitcoin would be altered to freeze out Patriot Edition in return. But it will be too late for that: the large economy you built up is gone since the majority of the population already made the switch. You will have a very hard time finding a proper Bitcoin/Chinese yuan exchange since they'll be illegal. You have been relegated to a shattered shadow economy, trading badcoins among the few remaining disenfranchised who must.

All of this happened because the growing popularity of Bitcoin replaced this forum's ideologists with regular people. The same regular people who allowed today's surveillance society and top controlled economy to form.

I like your thinking! Great imagination!

Bitcoin downfall scenarios are a fun topic for anybody involved in the community. Although this might not be the most plausible one according to other members, I encourage you to keep coming up with them!
866  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Who is Satoshi Nakamoto? on: April 19, 2011, 08:46:40 AM
Here is the most recent picture we've got:





Zorro: individual talent raising against collective force.

Goddamn. I used to love watching Zorro.

The super hero of all super heros.
867  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Withdaw money from MtGox on: April 19, 2011, 08:45:41 AM
bump

Didn't Liberty Reserve get shut down?

You're mistaking Liberty Reserve with the Liberty Dollar.
868  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Distributed e-wallet ? on: April 19, 2011, 08:43:24 AM
Technically it would be more secure.

Why not 1 e-wallet company though that encrypts 50 or 100 different portions of your wallet on 50 or 100 different servers?

I can't see multiple ewaller providers working together unless there was some kind of standard protocol in place.
869  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: your faith in bitcoin on: April 19, 2011, 08:40:51 AM
Voted "I have my doubts, but globally I think it worths a shot" but I'm pretty sure that "it's the best digital currency at present time".

Then why did you vote for the former?
870  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I recommend everybody SELLs... on: April 19, 2011, 08:36:43 AM
I just sold 250k bitcoins. Thanks for the tip.
871  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / What about a stock trading + auction platform? on: April 19, 2011, 08:35:58 AM
I am chock full of ideas, and always out of time.

Why doesn't somebody create a stock market + product trading platform?

Think eTrade + eBay!

Basically just add in an auction platform to mtgox.

You could start out selling only video cards since that is what the bitcoin community really wants right now and expand from there.

If buyers didn't have any bitcoins to bid, they can purchase them through the stock market.

If sellers want to cash out, they can have money wired to their bank accounts just like paypal.

Most importantly, buyers and sellers can create a feedback record of their credibility like on eBay.

It would kill two birds with one stone by creating demand for bitcoins (since you will need to bid/buy with bitcoins) and adding liquidity to the bitcoin markets.
872  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: your faith in bitcoin on: April 19, 2011, 08:28:15 AM
interesting factiod:  according to this poll:

http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4407.0

... i am the oldest person here, at 59.

faith?  nope.

but i'll tell ya, i've missed a few boats in my life (caught some too) - and this Bitcoin thing just has that feel.  it's the kind of thing i don't want to look back on and realize that it was yet another biggie i didn't see coming.

so call it a hunch, if you like.

besides, i'm a geek.  it doesn't take much of an excuse to get me screwing around with hardware and software...

I am about half your age.

I have been on "the internet" for about half of my life or basically ever since there were HTML pages to look at.

One thing is for sure, bitcoin definitely has that "winning feel".
873  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What would happen if the govt seized mt gox? on: April 19, 2011, 08:15:35 AM
we would just have to add mtgox to these guys' list: http://www.mafiaafire.com/

That, and get everybody in the world to use mafiaafire + firefox
874  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Will bitcoin ever be faster? on: April 19, 2011, 08:14:02 AM
I asked the same (silly) question a little while ago: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5567.0

The answer: It is already 100x faster than your average bank. Instant banking is just an illusion.
875  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: New website does not link to Satoshis paper? on: April 19, 2011, 08:12:10 AM
I for one was almost scared away from bitcoin at the simplicity of the bitcoin paper. Quite a quick read for such a world changing thing.
876  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Go and download the Alexa toolbar! on: April 19, 2011, 08:08:07 AM
Honestly never hear'd of Alexa,
TEACH ME MASTER GOOGLE!!!

Well just download it, it will be good for bitcoin. That's all you need to know.
gathering information from toolbars is exactly why alexa is a bad source of info. don't bother with it. you'll just get some privacy leaking bloatware like chrome.

Don't listen to this guy. He has no idea what he's talking about.

Alexa does not install (or wish to install anything other than) their alexa toolbar. They are a subsidiary of Amazon and quite respected.

GitHub for example boasts about their Alexa ranking on their wikipedia page (see summary section to the right) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GitHub

Install the alexa toolbar, and bitcoin will look more credible to the outside world. Case closed.
877  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: in UK cost of 50 percent attack on bitcoin is 60 million pounds on: April 19, 2011, 07:07:33 AM
http://www.itpro.co.uk/632131/fujitsu-returns-to-uk-supercomputing

Apparently UK government paid 15 million pounds for 190 TFLOPS supercomputer. Since one needs more than  one PFLOPS to match bitcoin network attack on bitcoin for them would cost as little as not less than 60 million pounds!

Fools! I could have sold them 190 TFLOPS supercomputer for less than 100k£ a year. lol. Moreover, it would fit, can be powered and cooled in my garage.


edit: as little as -> not less than

Governments almost ALWAYS overpay.

Here is an example: http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ico_website_favicon_cost

I could whip you up a favicon of your company or government logo in under 60 seconds. The UK Gov't paid ~600 pounds for this service. Or about 50-100X typical cost.
878  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Mining with 5850, boost performance? on: April 19, 2011, 07:05:12 AM

Does this bear any weight at all? Never heard of trixx, seems to be a sapphire dependent technology. Have you noticed an increased hash rate?
879  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: dual 5970 system vs. dual 6990 system results on: April 19, 2011, 04:33:08 AM
Apparantly you can get 743 MHash/s out of a 6990: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison#AMD
880  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Problems Communicating With Bitcoin RPC - Troubleshooting? on: April 19, 2011, 02:59:56 AM
That worked, thank you!

Does anyone know if there is a "how to guide" or pdf file or anything for poclbm or do I just have to read through the entire thread? (If so, maybe I'll make one!)
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