These guys certainly try to be the leader. Shipping is prohibitive for buying one (I live in EU). There is always IceDrill as a lower cost alternative...
Maybe someone provides hosting with these?
Cypherdoc if I order one can you provide hosting? Fee negotiable..
i don't know. i'd have to think about it. |
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Cypher -
Please relay to the principals at HF (not sure how often they are on the boards) that the miner community is cool to the current miner protection plan as described.
If they really want this to be a selling point, they need to ensure a couple of items:
1) that the extra hashing power would be made available in an immediately usable form (i.e. a mining module.. .or stripped down system with chip/chiller... e.g. a caseless, PSU-less Baby-jet that the owner could procure reasonably with off the shelf parts for a nominal price).
2) clarity on ROI should be clear that purchase price is the BTC cost and not some USD equivalent. Miners buy miners to make BTC. Speculators buy BTC for USD for exchange rate bubbles. You are selling miners not exchange rate machines.
We recognize that this program is currently unique and no other manufacturer offers anything similar. If these items were addressed I think more people would be willing to roll the dice with HF.
done |
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You live in an underpowered country.  Here 16A x 240V = 3840W per circuit is the norm. we're too busy making nuclear bombs. yeah, i had to install a 240V outlet just for my avalons. best thing i ever did. |
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Disclosed paid representative =/= shill, reading this bickering is annoying and totally inconducive to the real questions being asked here, which is the purpose of this thread. Take your accusations to the Scam Accusations board.
Anyways, what can we expect in the power department, any special preparations we need before delivery we should take note of? Will I need to call an electrician to run dedicated lines to the rig?
no. 4-5 Babyjets per residential household outlet. even more if you don't OC it. Well, I was wondering about the denser 2TH rigs they probably will roll out later. 5 chips in one case would approach normal outlet limits, correct? I'm trying to balance my concerns of space and outlet limits, while maximizing hash rate. I prefer not to 20 individual boxes strewn around the house, and would rather have 4-5 rigs that are easier to keep my eye on. Preferably, whatever configuration that would best balance typical outlet loads and hash rate would make me happy. If that means 5x 4 chips overclocked per rig on one outlet I need to know, if that's a greater cumulative hash rate than what 4x 5 normally clocked chips per rig on one outlet can do (assuming it's limited by outlet power draw). my electricity cost is not so much the concern, but the maximization of a balance of hash rate and power draw per outlet whilst minimizing space usage is my goal. the 350W power draw listed on the site is the OC'd draw. the nominal draw is 250W, i think. normal household outlet is 15A x 120V = 1800W. assuming the 350W, that would be where i got the 4-5 rig number from. 5 would be pushing it as normally you might want to be 10-20% below the max. this also assumes nothing else on the circuit elsewhere nearby. the big puppy apparently can't be OC'd but i have much less info on that one. |
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i still do not necessarily agree that using cc's is the best way to go for the consumer.
i believe that cc's encourages an intake of greater amounts of USD to fund these companies and their pre-orders than do restricting payments to BTC. consider the situation of a malicious company that simply wants to take in as many USD's early on by adopting a payment strategy that facilitates this, drag out a delivery date to "expire" as many of the 60 day guarantees that the cc providers give, and then run with the money. that's not good.
consider the scenario where the company is legit but then gets a false picture of what the demand for their product is simply b/c there are ppl out there wanting to reserve an order as a put option in case they change their minds. that's not good either in that the volatility of that order book can cause a company to severely miss their targeted assumptions and result in BK resulting in loss of your money and long lasting support.
at least for a BTC accepting company, the significantly dampened volatility of their order book can be counted on when planning out their production strategy. this is not an insignificant point. it also helps the BTC economy by increasing money velocity thru the system. and in the event of a scam or BK, at least the consumer hasn't lost tax or debt repayment USD's.
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ok, i just got some more specifics from Simon.
they definitely plan to open source hardware specs near the time coincident with the shipment of units. their idea is to encourage the manufacture of inexpensive clones into which their raw chips will be inserted.
they also have an admittedly fuzzy plan to sell the inhouse chassis at a discounted cost precisely to enable this program to be successful altho ultimately they want to become a chip manufacturer.
all from the horse's mouth.
Cypherdoc - I appreciate the position you are in, but right now the miner protection plan of providing raw chips is not very compelling. If an official HF executive staff member could commit to a non-fuzzy plan of providing turn-key useful hashing hardware if their products fail to be statistically cashflow positive after 90 days, I think that would truly raise the bar for asic manufacturers... and should be a compelling selling point for the company. If they want to be a successful chip company, they probably need to prove that they can be a successful hardware company first... otherwise it starts to feel a bit like Bitsyncom rather than Bitfury. Personally I feel Bitfury is the better model for them to shoot for. my .0002 btc you're right. ultimately all these things need to be stated or written by the company itself to be binding. you all should press them on this. i know i am. i am trying to be helpful. seriously. |
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i think you're wrong. it's not illegal to cancel an order you've not yet received. ppl do it all the time for a variety of reasons. and i happen to think alot of ppl on the forum are going thru the same scenario i have. you're honestly trying to tell them they can't do this?
If the intent to breach contract exists, then yes it is a criminal offence open to prosecution. I posted the legal stance with links, you provided the evidence. I'm obv. not going to report you, i don't particularly care what you as an individual have done, but you are representing a company and must be more careful with your actions, and what you say. Even acknowledging the practice as acceptable is awful, morseo if you encourage it's existence. Yes, I'm honestly telling people they cannot do this. It's fraud. It's illegal. well, that's the point. i never intended to breach any contracts. i've walked you thru my entire step by step thought process and timeline as to how my personal journey has evolved regarding these orders. i'll admit that one post could have been worded much better to reflect this but i really was trying to describe what i see happening in the marketplace in aggregate as a result of these cc's. but if you insist on taking the negative approach and hammering me with intentions of malice, i will continue to point to the facts as i've laid out as evidence to the contrary. if it comes down to it, i can easily verify those order holding dates and lengths of time to prove my innocence of intent. |
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i think you're wrong. it's not illegal to cancel an order you've not yet received. ppl do it all the time for a variety of reasons. and i happen to think alot of ppl on the forum are going thru the same scenario i have. you're honestly trying to tell them they can't do this?
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You mean there's a downside to accepting cc's?  Not for the customer, which is what we are...  Now we have an understanding No dude. He is talking about buyer protection in case anything with the manufacturer went awry. You were insinuating it was ok to lay several bets across various cards and cancel as you saw fit. One is perfectly acceptable and what consumer protection is for, the other is fraudulent card usage, and illegal. You really need to understand this, you're meant to be representing an above board company and encouraging malpractice directly from a spokesperson is not a healthy look. Just don't go there. dude, you really need to let these baseless allegations go. guess how long i had my KNC cc order in place? answer: 15 measly days from 7/13-7/28. amount of order: $21K guess how long i had my Megabig cc order in place? answer: 16 measly days from 7/20-8/6. amount of order: $40K as i've said many times before, if i really wanted to hurt those companies, i would've made $1M orders at each of them and waited right up until the day before shipment to request a refund to inflict max pain. get off your high horse. my assessment of the rapidly evolving asic company landscape changed as more info became available. that simple. i think everyone has to realize that Bitcoinorama stands to lose his own personal investment if ppl defect from KNC. that is where i think alot of his motivation is coming from to smash HF and anyone related to them in the most remote way. |
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ok, i just got some more specifics from Simon.
they definitely plan to open source hardware specs near the time coincident with the shipment of units. their idea is to encourage the manufacture of inexpensive clones into which their raw chips will be inserted.
they also have an admittedly fuzzy plan to sell the inhouse chassis at a discounted cost precisely to enable this program to be successful altho ultimately they want to become a chip manufacturer.
all from the horse's mouth.
i think jspielberg has this pegged right. either you want to help push the BTC economy forward by buying with BTC or you can choose to stay within the fiat world if you want to maintain maximum protection. Bitcoin, by it's nature, has been designed to be a "push" like payment system, not a "pull" like system in fiat. yes, that ultimately means you have to trust the companies involved. which means you have to do due diligence like go and visit these guys. do some digging on their resumes. analyze the ppl who have put their trust in them as proxies for your own trust level, etc, etc.
what gives me hope is that none of the major companies like BFL, Avalon, Asicminer have just taken money and run. all have delivered product with highly varying degrees of promptness. clearly which has affected returns. but none have been an outright scam by my definition. i truly don't think HF will be either. it's just a matter of if you think they can deliver on time.
the two big safety valves you have imo are the full refund date and now the MPP. of course, if they do a BK you'll probably never see these guarantees materialize. but as i pointed out, they do have several funding options prior to that scenario.
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The extra capacity will be chips only, to be used with a HashFast or third party chassis.
I'm not harping the "buyer protection plan" (it is a lot more than any other company has done, so I applaud HashFast for this), but make sure you guys read the fine print. You will need to pay for the chips to be assembled into actual mining equipment (which is probably why they can afford to do this). Yes, this is true but the hardware specs will be open sourced from the get go which should spawn a new generation of Babyjet clones into which these high performance, high efficiency chips can be inserted. @cypherdoc, what makes you think the hardware 'specs' will be open sourced? Because when I first heard of this program that's the first question that popped into my head as a miner like yourself. They've personally told me this is the case. |
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i didn t really read the fine print
there will still be costs for the buyer as he ll need to make an pcb and make it assembled so that s not really a buyer protection if he needs still to spend to get it done
u ll need to improve this guys if you want to do things seriously
Like I said above, the hardware will be open sourced. There will be clones built for the chips inexpensively. In fact, an entire industry could be built around this concept. And the chips won't have to scale the Great Wall. |
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You mean there's a downside to accepting cc's? Not for the customer, which is what we are... Now we have an understanding |
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the way you've tended to address me so far has not encouraged any productive communication. there's alot in that paragraph of yours. what is it you want me to answer?
Oh just looking for a civil discussion on any or all points brought up in that post. Or since you have such close ties with HashFast, maybe their opinion? You can't deny that the landscape has changed regarding pricing since they've first announced their pricing. There are a number of other companies starting to come out with their prices and estimated delivery around the same time for much less. at least you and i can now make some progress. the Dec 31 Refund Policy is something they had in place before i even met them. how they arrived at it, i don't know. i can tell you that from their perspective it's fair and they've said that they fully plan on honoring it using different options i alluded to up further in this thread. as for taking cc's we've already gone over that and if you really disagree you should bring it up with them. the only change in "pricing" that i'm aware of is KNC's reduction to $5000 in Nov. imo, and mine alone, it seems a little bit of a desperate move to retain customers. the question is, can they deliver at that price and still remain profitable? since you were at HashFast and signed an NDA, i'm sure that you're aware that HF believes their chip has significant performance efficiency advantages over KNC's as well as lower production costs. perhaps they have every right to have there pricing at $5600 which also happens to be the currently the best value out there? no one actually knows until these chips and machines are actually out there chugging away. I can agree that the power efficiency is probably much better if just looking at those numbers, however until coins received vs electric costs get to that level KnC Shipping quicker is much better (and the $600 you'd save would easily pay for the electricity gap between the lifetime of the machines) However don't mistake this as me defending KnC, there are others being mentioned as well. xCrowd, "Smart Machine" that just popped up. There will be others but those two are saying they are going to be offering $6/GH for their products. Personally I think any above $10/GH won't see the light of day in terms of ROI come end of October (This being if KnC Ships) I think companies need to expect $3-7/GH by November to see a return. However at that rate even KnC doesn't look like a good deal. BUT come to think of it, KnC knows how many orders they potentially need to deliver. If they feel the $5,000 price for their unit is a good deal then maybe I'm over speculating the Hashrate they will release. Who knows, for me personally I won't buy another mining machine until we figure out exactly what companies CAN deliver, if at all. There are just too many companies out now. Back when KnC came out there was just Avalon, BFL, and a Russian Company called Metabank that was going to offer Bitfury units (Sounds real legit hah). KnC was an easy decision. Now you have the following companies that all plan on selling some sort of ASIC. (In no specific order) Avalon (Gen 2) BFL Bitfury KnC xCrowd HashFast VMC Smart Machine ASICMiner Labcoin BTCGarden CoinTerra let me know if I missed one. As you can see though that's A LOT of choices, just too many companies to choose from. in my mind you can cross Avalon, BFL, and for sure BTCGarden off that after what happened today. the only one on that list that i think has a chance to challenge HF is Cointerra. but the fact is, they are 2 mo behind HF. that is an eternity in today's market. clearly it's a leap of faith when dealing with any of these companies b/c we just don't know all the details. and even if we did, i'm sure there are only a few of us that would understand what the hell we were looking at. we're all dependent on the knowledge level and sophistication of the engineers involved as they're bumping up against the bleeding edge of new technology. in these situations, i do what i did. get on a plane and go visit the ppl involved. you know as well as i these guys are not a scam. they're trying their best to produce a stellar product. Simon has been working on this baby for 2 yrs on and off and more on clearly since the beginning of the year. he's clearly a brilliant guy and quite frankly, he is the reason i've plunked my $ down on the table for my order. it's a leap of faith no question. but i truly believe they've created the best situation possible for themselves in creating a quality chip. his team of 4 engineers on the front end with Uniquify on the back should be enough to produce what they say. and you and i know that if they do it, it will make KNC's chip look like child's play and they will only be coming in one month later than them. and as i said before, i like the fact that HF has engineers on the front end which unfortunately results in some business mistakes, like the cart the other nite. i'm investing for the long run in the best technologists i can find. b/c out of the Golden Nonce 1 will come the Golden Nonce 2, etc, etc. Simon has the capability to make this all happen. and, imo, there is no better than the guys out of Silicon Valley/PARC. they have all the connections and resources nearby that can create synergies and afford a great advantage. with time, clearly the cost is going to come down under $10/gh. this will be good for small miners. all these companies will have no choice but to compete for not only the whales but the minnows, its going to be that competitive. will the mines drive out the small miners? i don't know. i think there is hope though which is why i'm willing to extend my setup beyond just my avalons. and i don't want to be late. i only started gpu mining in mid 2011. i didn't think i'd ever pay them off but the coins generated from my setup have more than paid off my rig costs given the price increase. so i'm just trying to grab and accumulate as many coins as i can before the next price ramp which is coming. i'm also probably buying my setup with more of a philosophical mindset than most others. i want to help decentralize the network as a solo miner. that's just me and my dedication to Bitcoin. the HR is going to level off though at some point. Jeffrey Paul, aka Sneak, made a great point on Lets Talk Bitcoin. it can't go up forever in this cycle of asic development. the constraint will be limited by the amount of USD that actors are going to be capable of or willing to throw at this space. it's not infinite and it will peak out for a while. the trick will be to buy enough equipment at a low enough price to make yourself a relevant actor. who knows what that level will be or how much it will cost but i don't want to miss out on the asic revolution. Can you ellaborate some more on why you think HF is better than all the others companies? Did you take a plane to Sweden and China too to meet the engineering teams? Or is it that Sillicon Valley is the best? You say KnC will be ONLY 1 month ahead - sorry man but I have to laugh. We are talking about the 28nm leading here. HF may produce a better chip no doubt, but give me 50m lead and I can steal the golden metal from Bolt @100m sprint.. They're both 28nm at the moment. No, I was only compelled to fly to Silicon Valley. Biased yes. I am very curious though about the percentage of KnC customers switching to HF in case they start delivering LATE September, while Bitfury continues his epic run and HF offers a more compelling product.. You mean there's a downside to accepting cc's? |
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About BTCGarden: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264696.msg2922049#msg2922049All I wanna say is even if HF is THE ASIC manufacturer in terms of quality, this is not a quarantee for success in this market. A shitload of cheap Chinese hashes will have been released until HF delivers. How can you compete with quantity? Quality - go for 28nm. But there we have more than 1 competitor and the most important factor is timing. It wouldn't matter if Japan could deploy an H-bomb a month after Hirosima happened. A plain nuclear bomb did the job... I'm not sure I believe that. You have to believe that quality versus quantity will win out at some point especially in this game. Also alot of quality chips can be made cheaply Btw, it appears a lot of Chinese chips are now happily hashing away in the wrong hands. |
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The extra capacity will be chips only, to be used with a HashFast or third party chassis.
I'm not harping the "buyer protection plan" (it is a lot more than any other company has done, so I applaud HashFast for this), but make sure you guys read the fine print. You will need to pay for the chips to be assembled into actual mining equipment (which is probably why they can afford to do this). Yes, this is true but the hardware specs will be open sourced from the get go which should spawn a new generation of Babyjet clones into which these high performance, high efficiency chips can be inserted. |
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the way you've tended to address me so far has not encouraged any productive communication. there's alot in that paragraph of yours. what is it you want me to answer?
Oh just looking for a civil discussion on any or all points brought up in that post. Or since you have such close ties with HashFast, maybe their opinion? You can't deny that the landscape has changed regarding pricing since they've first announced their pricing. There are a number of other companies starting to come out with their prices and estimated delivery around the same time for much less. at least you and i can now make some progress. the Dec 31 Refund Policy is something they had in place before i even met them. how they arrived at it, i don't know. i can tell you that from their perspective it's fair and they've said that they fully plan on honoring it using different options i alluded to up further in this thread. as for taking cc's we've already gone over that and if you really disagree you should bring it up with them. the only change in "pricing" that i'm aware of is KNC's reduction to $5000 in Nov. imo, and mine alone, it seems a little bit of a desperate move to retain customers. the question is, can they deliver at that price and still remain profitable? since you were at HashFast and signed an NDA, i'm sure that you're aware that HF believes their chip has significant performance efficiency advantages over KNC's as well as lower production costs. perhaps they have every right to have there pricing at $5600 which also happens to be the currently the best value out there? no one actually knows until these chips and machines are actually out there chugging away. I can agree that the power efficiency is probably much better if just looking at those numbers, however until coins received vs electric costs get to that level KnC Shipping quicker is much better (and the $600 you'd save would easily pay for the electricity gap between the lifetime of the machines) However don't mistake this as me defending KnC, there are others being mentioned as well. xCrowd, "Smart Machine" that just popped up. There will be others but those two are saying they are going to be offering $6/GH for their products. Personally I think any above $10/GH won't see the light of day in terms of ROI come end of October (This being if KnC Ships) I think companies need to expect $3-7/GH by November to see a return. However at that rate even KnC doesn't look like a good deal. BUT come to think of it, KnC knows how many orders they potentially need to deliver. If they feel the $5,000 price for their unit is a good deal then maybe I'm over speculating the Hashrate they will release. Who knows, for me personally I won't buy another mining machine until we figure out exactly what companies CAN deliver, if at all. There are just too many companies out now. Back when KnC came out there was just Avalon, BFL, and a Russian Company called Metabank that was going to offer Bitfury units (Sounds real legit hah). KnC was an easy decision. Now you have the following companies that all plan on selling some sort of ASIC. (In no specific order) Avalon (Gen 2) BFL Bitfury KnC xCrowd HashFast VMC Smart Machine ASICMiner Labcoin BTCGarden CoinTerra let me know if I missed one. As you can see though that's A LOT of choices, just too many companies to choose from. in my mind you can cross Avalon, BFL, and for sure BTCGarden off that after what happened today. the only one on that list that i think has a chance to challenge HF is Cointerra. but the fact is, they are 2 mo behind HF. that is an eternity in today's market. clearly it's a leap of faith when dealing with any of these companies b/c we just don't know all the details. and even if we did, i'm sure there are only a few of us that would understand what the hell we were looking at. we're all dependent on the knowledge level and sophistication of the engineers involved as they're bumping up against the bleeding edge of new technology. in these situations, i do what i did. get on a plane and go visit the ppl involved. you know as well as i these guys are not a scam. they're trying their best to produce a stellar product. Simon has been working on this baby for 2 yrs on and off and more on clearly since the beginning of the year. he's clearly a brilliant guy and quite frankly, he is the reason i've plunked my $ down on the table for my order. it's a leap of faith no question. but i truly believe they've created the best situation possible for themselves in creating a quality chip. his team of 4 engineers on the front end with Uniquify on the back should be enough to produce what they say. and you and i know that if they do it, it will make KNC's chip look like child's play and they will only be coming in one month later than them. and as i said before, i like the fact that HF has engineers on the front end which unfortunately results in some business mistakes, like the cart the other nite. i'm investing for the long run in the best technologists i can find. b/c out of the Golden Nonce 1 will come the Golden Nonce 2, etc, etc. Simon has the capability to make this all happen. and, imo, there is no better than the guys out of Silicon Valley/PARC. they have all the connections and resources nearby that can create synergies and afford a great advantage. with time, clearly the cost is going to come down under $10/gh. this will be good for small miners. all these companies will have no choice but to compete for not only the whales but the minnows, its going to be that competitive. will the mines drive out the small miners? i don't know. i think there is hope though which is why i'm willing to extend my setup beyond just my avalons. and i don't want to be late. i only started gpu mining in mid 2011. i didn't think i'd ever pay them off but the coins generated from my setup have more than paid off my rig costs given the price increase. so i'm just trying to grab and accumulate as many coins as i can before the next price ramp which is coming. i'm also probably buying my setup with more of a philosophical mindset than most others. i want to help decentralize the network as a solo miner. that's just me and my dedication to Bitcoin. the HR is going to level off though at some point. Jeffrey Paul, aka Sneak, made a great point on Lets Talk Bitcoin. it can't go up forever in this cycle of asic development. the constraint will be limited by the amount of USD that actors are going to be capable of or willing to throw at this space. it's not infinite and it will peak out for a while. the trick will be to buy enough equipment at a low enough price to make yourself a relevant actor. who knows what that level will be or how much it will cost but i don't want to miss out on the asic revolution. Can you ellaborate some more on why you think HF is better than all the others companies? Did you take a plane to Sweden and China too to meet the engineering teams? Or is it that Sillicon Valley is the best? You say KnC will be ONLY 1 month ahead - sorry man but I have to laugh. We are talking about the 28nm leading here. HF may produce a better chip no doubt, but give me 50m lead and I can steal the golden metal from Bolt @100m sprint.. They're both 28nm at the moment. No, I was only compelled to fly to Silicon Valley. Biased yes. |
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