This is an interesting development, but how quickly can all of this take place? I personally believe btc is headed to around $20-30 in a few months, so the timing is important. I'm happy to see this thread turn into something constructive.
I think I can get it done quick, we need to, due to the eASIC deal, they are going to want a lot of money soon. I have already been working on a standalone VMC offering. So, It will not take to much more time to add the swap rules into the offering. What takes a lot of time is the projection of sales, expenses, and the resultant profit. |
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So, great news today!  Offering a 1-for-1 share swap looks good, provided there is enough time to do it (2-3 months?), as I'm sure there are a lot of people who bought AMC options already. Most likely we don't have 2-3 months to do anything in this fast paced Bitcoin manufacturing world. |
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Great work tonight guys! I think we are finally on the way towards where we need to be. While we are waiting to hear back from Ken, could someone with a legal background look at the current AMC offering on Bitfunder to see if there is any possibility and or loophole that would allow an acquisition of VMC by AMC? Ken has insisted that as it currently stands, there is no way for that to be done, but it would not hurt to run over it to be sure. This would certainly be the easiest way to move forward on getting everything under one roof, but if Ken can legally not modify the contract, then we will have to go about it a different way. Currently, the plan that is being drawn up is as following:
Ken will create a VMC offering at some point (when is anyone's guess).
Trading will continue on both offerings, AMC and VMC.
At some point, AMC holders will have the option to trade AMC shares in for an equal number of VMC shares.
We can assume that when the trade options are made available, Ken will officially announce VMC's acquisition of AMC, and will set a closing date.
Ken is still looking for feedback and suggestions from the community, so please keep them coming. Great job guys!
I think I explained the loophole already. There are two issues, one pertaining to real life money and the other to us as bitcoin investors. The real life situation is easy to resolve, Kenneth owns both VMC and AMC so to combine them into one entity should be relatively easy. On the bitcoin end, Kenneth can claim that AMC no longer has any profit because it was bought out, thus he can stop paying dividends. Then, he can offer users a 1-1 swap of AMC shares for VMC shares followed by freezing of the AMC asset. This will make everyone with shares in AMC swap their shares for VMC, finishing the elimination of AMC. How this would be accomplished fairly for shareholders and at a profit for Ken has been outlined by myself in previous posts, which Kenneth seems to give approval for. Very good! FM, I mean this wholeheartedly when I say that I am thrilled you have come on board. It's apparent that Ken is going to need all the help he can get from posters like you if we are going to see this succeed at the end. Just one quick question, how would he handle the holdouts. Surely, there will be a few who decide not to trade in 100% of their AMC for VMC. Would they eventually become liquidated at a certain time, and the funds would then be sent to the holder's account? From a shareholder point of view, it would make no sense to be a holdout. But lets say a few unknowing people out there do not exchange their AMC shares to VMC. 1.) They would be stuck with AMC shares but cannot do anything with them because Kenneth has frozen the AMC asset 2.) They would realize their AMC share by itself is worthless because dividends are no longer coming in 3.) They CAN (and should) swap their shares at any time for VMC shares If they do not swap, then they would be the only ones that are negatively impacted. Neither Kenneth, you, nor I have any incentive in forcing these people to swap for VMC shares. Thus nothing actually needs to be done with people who hold out. 1.) Let me clear this up for AMC shareholders, I will never freeze the shares. I may twist your arm to trade your shares for VMC, but I will never force anything on you. 2.) Dividends will continue for AMC unless VMC owns 100% of the shares of AMC. 3.) There might be a time limit on swapping shares. Let me know what you think about the above. I think the above would be fair to everyone, those that want to be part of VMC and those that want to stay in AMC. |
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Just one quick question, how would he handle the holdouts. Surely, there will be a few who decide not to trade in 100% of their AMC for VMC. Would they eventually become liquidated at a certain time, and the funds would then be sent to the holder's account?
I asked this question about uh, oh, 3 pages ago. I don't want to force any AMC shareholders into any thing they don't want and I won't. I may twist there arms a little. |
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You can stipulate that you will purchase a certain amount of VMC shares at a number higher than .0025 only AFTER the wall at .0025 has been eaten through.
One way this can be encouraged + math:
Currently, there are 1,567,351 shares in the .0025 wall, equaling 3918.3775 BTC
Say that you offered to buy 1 million shares of VMC at .0026, this will cost you 2600 BTC.
In order to gain your originally planned 3918.3775 BTC, add additional shares to your wall - 1040000 worth of shares.
Thus the new wall will be 2,607,351 shares at .0025, with your promise that you will buy 1,000,000 shares of VMC at .0026 encouraging people to buy.
Of course offer 1-1 AMC to VMC swaps.
Then, freeze AMC after say a week after the wall is gone.
Great, You guys keep the ideas coming, I am going to bed as I have to get up early tomorrow and meet with my management team. |
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Ken,
Could you lock the VMC IPO price at whatever the value of AMC is when trading is halted? I think this would be the safest way: then re-calculate how many shares you need to release in a VMC ipo to meet upcoming obligations. This way currently held AMC shares transferred to VMC wouldn't be de-valued by a lower IPO. You could still keep shares back for future development stages.
Does this make sense?
No, I think the idea I had posted earlier makes alot of sense and will be the fairest in terms of price swaps. If we simply froze right now, people who bought above current market price will lose and kenneth will have to do a fair amount of math to figure out how to fairly distribute shares of VMC. The simplest way to do this is to announce that VMC will purchase all of AMC's stock at .0025, prompting the market to react and move AMC to .0025 and then market forces will by itself normalize price at .0025. Once this equillibrium has been reached, Kenneth can halt trading and initiate the 1 for 1 swaps. I don't know how VMC can purchase AMC shares at .0025? Tell me how to do that please. 1.) Open VMC for trading, but do not put any asks 2.) Put a bid wall at .0025 for the remaining shares at the current .0025 wall for AMC - (Currently at 1,567,351) 3.) Announce that in say 1-2 weeks time, you will allow users to exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC, and that trading for AMC will be closing after this time. I just wanted to chime in and say that I really like this idea. However, for this to work, trading will need to be halted on the AMC side of things. Otherwise, you'll have people buying super cheap shares of AMC, and then trading them in for possibly more expensive shares of VMC. Am I wrong in my assessment? Supposedly, one of the goals for the swap would be to encourage investors to buy cheap AMC shares all the way to and then through the .0025 wall, raising capital for Kenneth. Yes, this is what I am thinking would happen. |
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Ken,
Could you lock the VMC IPO price at whatever the value of AMC is when trading is halted? I think this would be the safest way: then re-calculate how many shares you need to release in a VMC ipo to meet upcoming obligations. This way currently held AMC shares transferred to VMC wouldn't be de-valued by a lower IPO. You could still keep shares back for future development stages.
Does this make sense?
No, I think the idea I had posted earlier makes alot of sense and will be the fairest in terms of price swaps. If we simply froze right now, people who bought above current market price will lose and kenneth will have to do a fair amount of math to figure out how to fairly distribute shares of VMC. The simplest way to do this is to announce that VMC will purchase all of AMC's stock at .0025, prompting the market to react and move AMC to .0025 and then market forces will by itself normalize price at .0025. Once this equillibrium has been reached, Kenneth can halt trading and initiate the 1 for 1 swaps. I don't know how VMC can purchase AMC shares at .0025? Tell me how to do that please. 1.) Open VMC for trading, but do not put any asks 2.) Put a bid wall at .0025 for the remaining shares at the current .0025 wall for AMC - (Currently at 1,567,351) 3.) Announce that in say 1-2 weeks time, you will allow users to exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC, and that trading for AMC will be closing after this time. I just wanted to chime in and say that I really like this idea. However, for this to work, trading will need to be halted on the AMC side of things. Otherwise, you'll have people buying super cheap shares of AMC, and then trading them in for possibly more expensive shares of VMC. Am I wrong in my assessment? Yes, that might happen. Might not be a bad thing as AMC needs to raise capital fast to pay the NRE soon. |
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Ken,
Could you lock the VMC IPO price at whatever the value of AMC is when trading is halted? I think this would be the safest way: then re-calculate how many shares you need to release in a VMC ipo to meet upcoming obligations. This way currently held AMC shares transferred to VMC wouldn't be de-valued by a lower IPO. You could still keep shares back for future development stages.
Does this make sense?
No, I think the idea I had posted earlier makes alot of sense and will be the fairest in terms of price swaps. If we simply froze right now, people who bought above current market price will lose and kenneth will have to do a fair amount of math to figure out how to fairly distribute shares of VMC. The simplest way to do this is to announce that VMC will purchase all of AMC's stock at .0025, prompting the market to react and move AMC to .0025 and then market forces will by itself normalize price at .0025. Once this equillibrium has been reached, Kenneth can halt trading and initiate the 1 for 1 swaps. I don't know how VMC can purchase AMC shares at .0025? Tell me how to do that please. 1.) Open VMC for trading, but do not put any asks 2.) Put a bid wall at .0025 for the remaining shares at the current .0025 wall for AMC - (Currently at 1,567,351) 3.) Announce that in say 1-2 weeks time, you will allow users to exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC, and that trading for AMC will be closing after this time. Ok, I will keep this in mind. I assume that the newly formed VMC security will have the duties and obligations of AMC with regards to shareholders, excepting the operating costs will be deducted from income before distribution of dividends Yes, very much like the AMC offering, but different in the fact VMC has employees, and a lot of operating expenses which have to be paid to operate. |
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Ok, I create a VMC offering, AMC shareholder can exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC. After the exchange period VMC will continue when
possible to purchase AMC shares on the open market until it has acquired all of AMC's shares. How does that sound?
Sounds like an opportunity to game the system. What happens to the hold-outs who don't convert? No problem, they stay in AMC as long as they want. We do not force anyone to move their shares to VMC. AMC keeps trading, it is just a chance for those that want to get into the selling of equipment to get into VMC. So, AMC shareholders are entitled to 10% of the Gross profits of AMC sales. I'm assuming that VMC shareholders would be entitled to a much larger percentage of VMC profits, yes? Again, I have said before that I am fine with the companies being split, but I feel like we should have the opportunity to buy into both companies if that is the case, and allow fundraising to take place within each company individually. None of this, "lending money to VMC or vice-versa" nonsense. I think that in its inception, you had a rather good idea, but did not think it through all the way. Another thing, for the love of god, please allow the option to change up the description and or contract like every other offering on Bitfunder. There is no need to reinvent an already rolling wheel. I have already been working on a VMC offering and it has that in it already. Learn a little from the AMC offering. |
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Ken,
Could you lock the VMC IPO price at whatever the value of AMC is when trading is halted? I think this would be the safest way: then re-calculate how many shares you need to release in a VMC ipo to meet upcoming obligations. This way currently held AMC shares transferred to VMC wouldn't be de-valued by a lower IPO. You could still keep shares back for future development stages.
Does this make sense?
No, I think the idea I had posted earlier makes alot of sense and will be the fairest in terms of price swaps. If we simply froze right now, people who bought above current market price will lose and kenneth will have to do a fair amount of math to figure out how to fairly distribute shares of VMC. The simplest way to do this is to announce that VMC will purchase all of AMC's stock at .0025, prompting the market to react and move AMC to .0025 and then market forces will by itself normalize price at .0025. Once this equillibrium has been reached, Kenneth can halt trading and initiate the 1 for 1 swaps. I don't know how VMC can purchase AMC shares at .0025? Tell me how to do that please. 1.) Open VMC for trading, but do not put any asks 2.) Put a bid wall at .0025 for the remaining shares at the current .0025 wall for AMC - (Currently at 1,567,351) 3.) Announce that in say 1-2 weeks time, you will allow users to exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC, and that trading for AMC will be closing after this time. Ok, I will keep this in mind. |
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Ok, I create a VMC offering, AMC shareholder can exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC. After the exchange period VMC will continue when
possible to purchase AMC shares on the open market until it has acquired all of AMC's shares. How does that sound?
Sounds like an opportunity to game the system. What happens to the hold-outs who don't convert? No problem, they stay in AMC as long as they want. We do not force anyone to move their shares to VMC. AMC keeps trading, it is just an chance for those that want to get into the selling of equipment to get into VMC. But then VMC does not own 100% of AMC. AMC owns the IP. It doesn't have to. The more it owns the better, but I don't see any reason it would have to own 100%. Over time as it makes money it could purchase more and more of AMC shares. Do this make since? Still gets paid its 10% no problem. |
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Ok, I create a VMC offering, AMC shareholder can exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC. After the exchange period VMC will continue when
possible to purchase AMC shares on the open market until it has acquired all of AMC's shares. How does that sound?
Sounds like an opportunity to game the system. What happens to the hold-outs who don't convert? No problem, they stay in AMC as long as they want. We do not force anyone to move their shares to VMC. AMC keeps trading, it is just an chance for those that want to get into the selling of equipment to get into VMC. But then VMC does not own 100% of AMC. It doesn't have to. The more it owns the better, but I don't see any reason it would have to own 100%. Over time as it makes money it could purchase more and more of AMC shares. Do this make since? |
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Ken,
Could you lock the VMC IPO price at whatever the value of AMC is when trading is halted? I think this would be the safest way: then re-calculate how many shares you need to release in a VMC ipo to meet upcoming obligations. This way currently held AMC shares transferred to VMC wouldn't be de-valued by a lower IPO. You could still keep shares back for future development stages.
Does this make sense?
No, I think the idea I had posted earlier makes alot of sense and will be the fairest in terms of price swaps. If we simply froze right now, people who bought above current market price will lose and kenneth will have to do a fair amount of math to figure out how to fairly distribute shares of VMC. The simplest way to do this is to announce that VMC will purchase all of AMC's stock at .0025, prompting the market to react and move AMC to .0025 and then market forces will by itself normalize price at .0025. Once this equillibrium has been reached, Kenneth can halt trading and initiate the 1 for 1 swaps. I don't know how VMC can purchase AMC shares at .0025? Tell me how to do that please. |
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Ok, I create a VMC offering, AMC shareholder can exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC. After the exchange period VMC will continue when
possible to purchase AMC shares on the open market until it has acquired all of AMC's shares. How does that sound?
Sounds like an opportunity to game the system. What happens to the hold-outs who don't convert? No problem, they stay in AMC as long as they want. We do not force anyone to move their shares to VMC. AMC keeps trading, it is just a chance for those that want to get into the selling of equipment to get into VMC. |
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Ken,
Could you lock the VMC IPO price at whatever the value of AMC is when trading is halted? I think this would be the safest way: then re-calculate how many shares you need to release in a VMC ipo to meet upcoming obligations. This way currently held AMC shares transferred to VMC wouldn't be de-valued by a lower IPO. You could still keep shares back for future development stages.
Does this make sense?
Yes it does, however I would have to think of a way to do that. Need some time to think this over. |
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I just came up with a idea to solve this problem.
I will create an VMC offering, then VMC will purchase AMC. There you that is the solution. Tell me what you think.
It depends on how you write it up. Also, will AMC shareholders have options for this new offering when/if the acquisition takes place? Good question. Yes, we should create a way for AMC shareholder to convert their shares to VMC shares. Is this what you are asking? Yes. Ok, I create a VMC offering, AMC shareholder can exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC. After the exchange period VMC will continue when possible to purchase AMC shares on the open market until it has acquired all of AMC's shares. How does that sound? The issue here is what price point are you planning to launch VMC at? There is actually a really good opportunity for you if you plan to launch VMC at .0025 BTC/share. This way people will come en-masse to purchase AMC up to your wall at that same price point, and you will raise all the money you wanted to raise in the first place. Once the wall has been eliminated, you can halt all trading for AMC and then have people swap shares for VMC and voila the new company is formed. Just came up with this idea, so I have not had time to think about price. You make a very good point here. |
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I just came up with a idea to solve this problem.
I will create an VMC offering, then VMC will purchase AMC. There you that is the solution. Tell me what you think.
How will VMC purchase AMC? Will it buy back all the shares of AMC? But if you did create a VMC offering, and then unite VMC with AMC under one roof, then yes this is exactly what we are all looking for. Again, it is just really important for current shareholders and potential investors like myself to see these two companies merged into one. Yes, VMC would start purchasing AMC shares until it has all of them. There is no need for this. Here a simple way to do it with one announcement: 1. VMC has been shutdown 2. AMC will now be doing the mining AND sales of chips/hardware itself Done!  Note: I know that is simplistic, but really, there is no need to complicate matters, keep them simple on purpose. Now, in the real world, you may have signed some documentation with eASIC etc ... but you can re-sign them as AMC. That will not work! I am sorry.  |
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I just came up with a idea to solve this problem.
I will create an VMC offering, then VMC will purchase AMC. There you that is the solution. Tell me what you think.
It depends on how you write it up. Also, will AMC shareholders have options for this new offering when/if the acquisition takes place? Good question. Yes, we should create a way for AMC shareholder to convert their shares to VMC shares. Is this what you are asking? Yes. Ok, I create a VMC offering, AMC shareholder can exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC. After the exchange period VMC will continue when possible to purchase AMC shares on the open market until it has acquired all of AMC's shares. How does that sound? |
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Hi Ken,
1. I am a shareholder of AMC. But I advise others not to buy any AMC shares at 0.0025.
2. 0.0025*2m@BF and 0/0025*2m@BTCT. If those 4m shares are sold out as planned. You will have 10,000 BTC. What are you going to do with it. In real world, IPO usually come with detailed project feasibility report or something like that. You just threw a statement on 27th and placed 4m shares ask. We need justifications to convince us that our investment is indeed a sane one.
3. Merge will be a good idea. Otherwise share price will be always haunted by the suspicion of transmitting shareholder's interest to some individual.
The 10,000 BTC is needed for eASIC's NRE to create the Fast-Hash-One 28nm 16 GH/s chip. |
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I just came up with a idea to solve this problem.
I will create an VMC offering, then VMC will purchase AMC. There you that is the solution. Tell me what you think.
It depends on how you write it up. Also, will AMC shareholders have options for this new offering when/if the acquisition takes place? Good question. Yes, we should create a way for AMC shareholder to convert their shares to VMC shares. Is this what you are asking? |
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