FWIW Evan said he's been thinking about this for the past few weeks, so despite the fact that this seems like a sudden thing, our Dear Leader has been mulling it over and created this thread to instigate discussion. I do need to teach that boy better PR management, typical programmer.  Would you guys & gals like a re-vote with a few more options? LOL, or allow changing of the votes so as people think about it, they can change if they like  Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but the community clearly prefers scarcity. 88%! What is this about changing votes? People don't agree with you so they should change their votes? No! You misunderstand. We are debating, or I am trying to, so we make the right decision. I fear people have voted before really thinking about it and feel they should be allowed to change their vote, if they changed their mind. I know I'm giving it my all, because I care about this coin, but I think I've debated my point of view politely. Nobody has to agree with me, I can be alone, but at least I brought up something to think about, and a few of my own opinions, which are just mine. I see that my hope for this coin is not the same as everyone elses, but that's to be expected. I'm glad if at least a few of you "heard" me even if you don't agree  I'm tired now, so that's all I got for this |
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As it stands, DarkCoin can live forever, if the artificial 84million cap were removed. It is still rare, it takes a century to get to 100 million. Look at the United States Deficit! It's in the Trillions! And people think 100 million coins for the world population is too much?
I'm going to respectfully disagree. Darkcoin needs a cap, it doesn't have to be quick or sharp, or anytime soon, but there needs to be an expectation that it's a limited commodity like gold. Why? Because it's directly competing with other limited commodity cryptocurrencies. If darkcoin is inflationary, there is no advantage to keeping your money in it long term. This is a problem, because trying to trade in and out of the currency would reduce the privacy that it affords. I could hold another limited commodity cryptocurrency instead and very likely watch its value gain with time. Gradually reducing the rewards over time is an excellent solution. Miners will still make money off of transaction fees, the price will adjust upwards as inflation diminishes, and there will be real incentive to keeping your money in darkcoin long term. These are the characteristics you would want in an ideal currency. I guess, I just saw a different future for this coin, as an actual coin, not a commodity. I've said my peace |
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Has anyone done the math for figuring out at what hash rate we will hit the minimum 5 coins per block?
I believe around 3400 |
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As it stands, DarkCoin can live forever, if the artificial 84million cap were removed. It is still rare, it takes a century to get to 100 million. Look at the United States Deficit! It's in the Trillions! And people think 100 million coins for the world population is too much?
Bitcoin won't die just because it'll stop producing coins at some point - otherwise no-one would buy it thinking it's dead and buried already. There's still transaction fees to be mined after the coin generation phase and if the coin has endured for so long, that means it will have transactions. Finite and scarce coins are always better than infinite crapcoins. The elite-hoarding argument is true for every single coin in circulation. If the elite have the money and want to buy in, they can buy anything they like and hoard it. It is not infinite if the demand outpaces the supply, by a lot! And bitcoin is already stagnant. It sits like gold in a vault, under your bed, behind the couch. |
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If you make the minimums so small, nobody would care about the coin. They'd say, oh only the people who got in early will ever have any coin, why should I make them rich? You'll kill this coin with greed. The exact reason why true democracy will never work, the people will keep voting themselves money until here isn't any anymore... |
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I fully support the idea of gradually tapering off the generation of new coins.
Long term, miners will absolutely be able to earn profit through the collection of transaction fees, and over time the price will adjust upwards to compensate for the scarcity and reduced supply.
Permanent inflation is something I'd rather avoid, because it means people won't want to have their money in darkcoin long term. Making darkcoin a limited commodity will make it more valuable. 20% reward reduction per era is more gradual than the sharp 50% reduction seen in other coins, and doing this in no way reduces the usefulness of the coin.
The quantity of coins IS limited. Extremely limited actually. It will take a freaking long time to get to the maximum. That chart is wholly unrealistic! We are on track to hug that blue line on the bottom! There is no need for adjustment. Making both of those lines, the red and the blue, sit half way fro where they are now, will not guarantee anything anymore than what we have now. What I mean by that, is it will still not answer the question for people who must know "but how many coins will there be in 5 years? It will still depend on the mining power, and you still won't be able to guarantee an amount, and they will still complain. the formula is incredibly good, and it's working like a charm, and there Is no reason to suspect hash won't grow as it has been and we will soon hit that 5 coin minimum. Don't mess with a good thing! |
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i have no nice graphic, but some solid numbers:
now we have ~ diff 300 for some days of mining:
diff 300 / block-reward 21 DRK / 12,096 DRK per day / 4,415,040 DRK per year
diff 600 / block-reward 18 DRK / 10,368 DRK per day / 3,784,320 DRK per year
diff 900 / block-reward 15 DRK / 8,640 DRK per day / 3,153,600 DRK per year
diff 1200 / block-reward 12 DRK / 6,912 DRK per day / 2,522,880 DRK per year
....
diff 3000 / block-reward 6 DRK / 3,456 DRK per day / 1,261,440 DRK per year
diff 3300 / block-reward 5 DRK / 2,880 DRK per day / 1,051,200 DRK per year
more diff means (>3300): block-reward 5 DRK / 2,880 DRK per day / 1,051,200 DRK per year
to have a real comparison you have to devide the DRK-diff with 3 to have the scrypt-diff
then you have "only" the scrypt-diff of doge-scrypt-coin: 1100
when DRK gets a bit more popular, then we will only see the 1 million new coins per year!
so a block-reduction is really not neccessary!
its a very good block-reward-formula - it should not be reduced!
+1 +1,051,200 |
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FWIW Evan said he's been thinking about this for the past few weeks, so despite the fact that this seems like a sudden thing, our Dear Leader has been mulling it over and created this thread to instigate discussion. I do need to teach that boy better PR management, typical programmer. Would you guys & gals like a re-vote with a few more options? LOL, or allow changing of the votes so as people think about it, they can change if they like |
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The red line shows the theoretical max coins at minimum diff the blue is maximum diff.
It still assumes difficulty remains the same throughout which it shouldn't. It should be more of a curve, and now my dang vocabulary is abandoning me... a ____ curve, ugh! We will very soon, I suspect, hit the minimum reward of 5 coins. That would set us at just over 1 mil new coins a year, which will be enough to keep people mining, which will keep the coin alive! No reward = no reason to mine = death, not a mild inflation which will be absorbed by an increase in population! don't be short sighted! Think of the lifespan/usefulness of the coin, that's where the ultimate value is! BTW, there is NO WAY the rewards would EVER follow that red line, it'll be pretty much the blue line, with mild varience, so that chart is just to scare! (Ok, you're not out to scare us, but the likelihood of that happening is slim to none) Satoshi thought of the mine thing. Fees are the incentive. DarkSend can generate plenty of fees for miners and in particular nodes. It should, in my view, be the primary source of revenue - gateway payments because all the other coins will use DarkSend. Fees won't be enough. Look at how hard it already is to mine bitcoin. The rewards are ridiculous. It is the first, so stores that have vision are accepting bitcoin to sell stuff, but when the prices start to look like 0.00000214 it's just gonna be annoying! Bitcoin will soon stagnate. It might keep it's value like you put value on gold, but it will have no usefulness. I see darkcoin having usefulness. |
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Mild inflation is good for a growing population, and believe me, it'll be more than absorbed!
Bullshit. Mild inflation is never good. Stability is required. That stabilty can be provided by the market through natural periods of inflation and deflation. Stop reading the works of douchebags like Paul Krugman, winner of The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel. I.e. NOT a real Nobel prize. A prize awarded by a central bank. Who the fuck do you think benefits from fiat inflation?? Banks. Not the people. WE HAVE inflation in order to build up the supply of coins! There would be NO coins without inflation! With the number of people joining the crypto community, and the usefulness of the coin increasing, there will be a lot of demand, way out pacing the supply! I see this coin as being here forever, not just a pump and dump with a lifespan of 5 years, it's still a pump and dump then! Heck, 100,000,000 coins in a century when our current US deficit is 17 trillion? It's nothing! And Darkcoin is a world currency! |
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If possible, can you make it so that people can change their vote?
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Hello everyone and happy Friday!Anyone who's been around long enough knows nothing in Darkcoin is ever set in stone and we listen to the community. Last time we removed the block halving we received a lot of crap, here's the problems with yearly halving. - It's too fast and could destroy the coin - It's way too much (50% per year) - We already have formula for controlling the supply Problems with not having a fixed supply: - We'll have a constant amount of inflation forever. Most of us are in the austrian camp of economics, so I'd like to fix this. In true Darkcoin fashion, I'd like to propose a solution that no other crypto has and fixes all of the issues. A yearly reduction of supply of 20%. With this we'll hit the cap of coins near 2056. I'm guessing we'll have somewhere near 25M coins (12M minimum, 49M maximum. Depends on how many miners we attract).  Let's have a vote! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=525093.0 This is a pretty big deal. Once this change is made is it final? We seem to revisit this from time to time. Also in the graph what is the middle black line? That's just the average, and as it is going, we seem right on track to hug that blue line, so the red line is really an unlikely max that I'm afraid people think could be real. It's not, and I would like to see the formula continue as it is. I think it's unwise to shorten the lifespan of this coin. You have to remember, there will exponentially more and more people joining the crypto coin community over the next few years, and more after that. It will become an acceptable form of currency, there is no stopping it now. So the mild inflation will be quickly absorbed by demand, and allowing for meaningful rewards in the long term will keep this coin viable in our lifetime! This coin should be the exception to the rule of, "lets get all the profit we can out of it asap to heck with the future!" As it stands, DarkCoin can live forever, if the artificial 84million cap were removed. It is still rare, it takes a century to get to 100 million. Look at the United States Deficit! It's in the Trillions! And people think 100 million coins for the world population is too much? |
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The red line shows the theoretical max coins at minimum diff the blue is maximum diff.
It still assumes difficulty remains the same throughout which it shouldn't. It should be more of a curve, and now my dang vocabulary is abandoning me... a ____ curve, ugh! We will very soon, I suspect, hit the minimum reward of 5 coins. That would set us at just over 1 mil new coins a year, which will be enough to keep people mining, which will keep the coin alive! No reward = no reason to mine = death, not a mild inflation which will be absorbed by an increase in population! don't be short sighted! Think of the lifespan/usefulness of the coin, that's where the ultimate value is! BTW, there is NO WAY the rewards would EVER follow that red line, it'll be pretty much the blue line, with mild varience, so that chart is just to scare! (Ok, you're not out to scare us, but the likelihood of that happening is slim to none) |
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If I understand it correctly, you want to decrease DRK joining the market by 20% every year.
So it goes like this for the DRK being mined:
2015 - 800,000 DRK
2016 - 640,000 DRK
2017 - 512,000 DRK
Or am I not getting something?
That's correct Is that taking into consideration the formula for payout? |
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Making the coin scarce is only for the short-sighted. It will make the coin quickly become one for only the elite to have. Look at Bitcoin! Besides, it doesn't even change anything in the short term anyway! Look, a mild inflation which this coin would have (and it wouldn't look like that crazy chart!) is healthy! As more of the public become involved with cryptos, they will take up much more of the inflationary slack than is created. This allows the coin to be accessible way into the future! There will be plenty of demand still. You can hard cap it at 84 million, and let the formula do the rest and I bet it will still take until 2084 to get to that cap.  This is rewards over hash rate, and you already can see how fast our hash rate has been increasing. I really think changing the setup would be unwise and short sighted! |
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Reward over hashrate |
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can you show on the graph what existing looks like?
 But Evan, this doesn't show the formula, increased hashing lowers the reward, until it hits a minimum of 5 coins! That graph looks crazy, and isn't even accurate for what we are hashing now! |
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can you show on the graph what existing looks like? I think the only reason to change is because people don't understand how it works. In fact, if DarkCoin is successful, then there really would be no inflation. Because more people would be using the coin which = more demand for the coin, which I suspect will out-number any inflation built in. Besides, as more people mine, the rewards go down... so the only real reason to do this is to reduce the total coin supply. But I think a larger/longer coin supply gives the coin much more longevity. It will work well into the future, deep into the future. While still maintaining a very limited supply of yearly coins. People don't understand that right now, but I think as more attention is focused on DarkCoin, more writers will explain this, and eventually it will be understood and accepted as a good thing. I know it's one of the factors that people are mistakenly using to value the coin right now (remember it takes 70+ years to get to the maximum number of coins) But it is one of the reasons I like this coin. I think it keeps the coin accessible to people in the future, which makes it actually useful as a REAL currency. I don't see bitcoin being more than a place to store your wealth, like buying gold, because it's becoming less and less accessible and less user friendly (buy a backpack, only 0.056875 btc!) And it's only going to get crazier! They say they can always go further down the decimal places, but really? Mild inflation is good for a growing population, and believe me, it'll be more than absorbed! Especially with the usefulness of this coin! Please don't freak out because the price is currently stagnant! Just because people don't understand yet, doesn't mean they won't when they're interested enough to focus a little more attention. The coin is getting spread out and creating more users right now because the price is so low! I'm guessing people who were able to mine a ton of 'em in the beginning are dumping, which is great! I mined from the beginning but only had 2 computers with 2 core processors that would work, and a high learning curve, so those coins mean a lot more to me, but those who got them easily, they're taking profit and spreading the coin, it's a GOOD thing! I think leaving it as it is, is the wise thing to do, for the usefulness and longevity of this coin |
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So glad you got it worked out, Lebubar!  Hey everyone! I'm also going to ask that those of you at coinmine.pl please move to another pool. I can vouch that http://lotterymining.com/ has been fast, stable and pays out regularly even for a small time hasher like myself (under 1 mh/s) There is such a small fee, and a fun lottery every week. But even if you don't come here, I can't imagine there aren't at least 5 stable pools you can go to. There is no advantage to going to coinmine.pl unless you absolutely need 250 tiny payments a day instead of 25 larger payments a day! SERIOUSLY, it makes NO DIFFERENCE! For DarkCoin's sake and the security of all our coins, PLEASE MOVE TO ANOTHER POOL!!! YAH YOU!!!  WAKE UP!!! Thank you guys, really we all must take responsibility now, and not leave it to the next guy Thanks |
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Hi, I know it's not the good place but here it's like my home, and nobody answers eslewhere. All wallet work the same so one question : What happen if a transaction got 0 confirmation : Status: 0/unconfirmed Date: 10/03/2014 23:58 To: fYHBV59dpPx1LBCWsVuwrYwVcGvDBmHTwS Debit: -999.999 FAC Transaction fee: -0.001 FAC Net amount: -1000.00 FAC Transaction ID: 94a954a634deeb6dd0b84d162101624b1a655bee27146d06bad475bd6b7e1617 This was sent 10 days ago.... The 1000 FAC leaves the sender wallet and never arrive in receiver wallet... Where are the coins? In the cosmos? They shouldn't returns in the sender wallet? All this to buy more DRK Could the receiving wallet be on a wrong blockchain? Well really don't know.. I had 10 wallet they give me 1000 FairCoin on each for free. I sent all in the firt address, only 1 transaction succeed to reach the fisrt, all other are like this one 0 confirmation So for the moment I loose 8000 FAC (~20 DRK for the moment)... Well I'll not complain they were free but 20 DRK more would be great  Backup your wallet, close it, then make yet another copy of your wallet.dat file. then remove everything except the wallet.dat file in the /appdata/etc.... or wherever your FAC folder is, and re-sync. I suspect that will take care of the problem? Well the repairwallet get back my coins but impossible to send them again : Error: The transaction was rejected. This might happen if some of the coins in your wallet were already spent, such as if you used a copy of the wallet.dat and coins were spent in the copy but not marked as spent here. I'll try to resync from begining You might want to try to resync all of them from the beginning, as it could also be that the funds never left (if they got on a blockchain fork?) |
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