Thanks TMAN.

Hi TMAN,

Thanks for contributing and for your advice as to what should have been done. Hindsight is a great thing afterall.

Any advice at all as to what you recommend to resolve this from this point going forward?

Cheers

No it's not an offence, just not something to call someone you are wanting a positive resolution from. At least not in my opinion.



What the hell?? - that has been my point - that you know i have NOT scammed you. This 'Scam Accusations' sub-forum is NOT the place for this matter. People come to this section without reading and just jump to conclusions - there have only been 3 or so people in this thread who seem to have actually read the thread and said something helpful - the others not so much.




How about we look at the whole paragraph for the context:

I said $1,000 again, because that what is was roughly when this all started. Not because it has to fall to that amount for me to repay. I was saying the only reason for any of this has been the btc price going 10x - 20x, nothing else.



No i have not. It the PM you are referring to, i was placing this matter in context overall, just like i have stated in posts in this thread. I have always acknowledged i have not paid the debt in full in btc terms. But from a fiat perspective, and from an overall dealings perspective between us, up to 20 deals, you are in front and this is 1 deal in many that hasn't been resolved. You've had many months to offer a solution to the on-going and ever-increasing repayments i have had to make, that's May 2017 to Feb 2018, but nothing this whole time. Its as if you said to yourself 'well since he is making part payments, I'll just let him struggle and continue to pay'. But as soon as i say i cant afford it at the moment due to x and y - you immediately open a scam accusation.

From my perspective that's really shitty man. I communicated with you the whole time how stressed i was about the repayments owed, yet i continued making them for months. Then you just do this to me.
You are in the business of lending. And because no borrower can be perfect all the time, you protect yourself by charging interest. And you've continued to charge me interest to this day.
I understand this is frustrating for you as it is for me. But the way you turned so suddenly, i'm like what the hell.

Cheers

That is 2 times now you've called me pathetic, along with calling me a scammer. You may want to keep in mind the saying 'you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar'. I don't respond to bullying and heavy-handed tactics. I've always communicated with you with courtesy. I remind you that i haven't scammed you and i have never lied to you.

And your second sentence above - you've misunderstood what i said because you've not taken it in the context i said it in.

Finally, i have not gone 'dark'. Dark would mean somebody who is regularly on here suddenly disappears. Either stops coming on regularly or starts a new account. I haven't started a new account. And in the 6-18 months prior to this, i came on here rarely anyways compared to my first 2-3years.

Cheers

Hi timerland,

Thanks for adding to the discussion.

Can i ask whether you read the whole thread?

Yes, I've said many times that i can't afford it. But let's get real here, the price going 10x - 20x is the major contributing factor. What would you do if a loan you expected to be repay for $780, gets to $5K -10k?? I could have got stuck just paying monthly interest in perpetuity it cost so much in fiat each month, without ever making a dent in the principal. That's just insane and unreasonable - get real people.

Please remember that zazarb and i have done many deals together over a long period of time, to the tune of many btc. He is well in front with our total business dealings. If zazarb was going to offer a discount or reduction, he would have by now is these circumstances. Its been many months of communication via PM  before this.

Cheers

@yahoo - well you obviously haven't read this whole thread, so thanks a bunch for your effort. No need to comment if you can't be bothered to read the thread.

I have communicated with zazarb the whole time. And the whole time until recently making repayments. I had negotiated with zazarb, that is, that I'd continue to make repayments. But i can't afford it at the moment,  my little boy just started school - so yeah I choose to buy his uniform and books etc as my priority at the moment.

"If you can't afford repayment then just say so" -> i have, many times. Oh yeah that's right, you haven't read the thread.

"failed to handle this properly."  Ummm, how would you have handled this?

"Users are jumping on the "Bandwagon" due to your attitude of the situation." What attitude? I have acknowledged i still owe a portion of the loan.  I'm just saying i haven't scammed zazarb.

"If he never receives his money,". Well never hasn't arrived yet has it.

"then they would not be doing their duty as DT." DT members have no duty to do anything.

"the price of bitcoin got too high and you just cannot afford to repay. That's noone's fault". Yep, TOTALLY agree.....hang on, oh its my fault -> Sorry in that case.

"Or you could speak with zazarb about making some sort of payment arrangement?" How do you know there's not anything going on in the background?

Yahoo, you are an honest guy and are trustworthy. I see you have taken out loans from zazarb too. Through 'noone's fault' as you put it, the price of btc skyrockets while you have a loan with zazarb  (hypothetically). You now owe him $10k for what was a $750 equivalent loan. You explain your situation to zazarb and ask him to take all things into perspective -> he proceeds to open a scam accusation against you, a honest and trustworthy guy.

Q. How would you feel? What would you do now?
Please please provide me an answer, I'm sincerely stuck on this. Please don't chicken out on the question as others have and simply state 'pay the loan'.

As someone with credibility around here, try not to jump on the bandwagon. I'm glad you've checked this thread as i know you are sensible. I don't categorise you as part of the mob group, so i want to hear you out.

Cheers

Edit: please see also my next post to timerland for bit of extra context.

Cheers again

"
If you had paid the due amount in December than zazarb could have profited a good amount of money (BTC0.195 * $19k = $3,700). But if you pay just right now than zazarb already lost $2100+.

I showed the USD profit & loss of zazarbs' because you are calculating in USD, whereas it should not be the case of USD term.

I'm wondering why you didn't take the opportunity in recent days to buy the BTC when it was fallen below $6k? In my opinion, that was your golden chance and you missed that."



Hi akamit,

Thank you for joining the discussion.

You are calculating things all wrong – even though I know you are just trying to provide an example. You are assuming he would have traded and picked the top of the market.

BTW, the loan was due in May 2017 – I kept making part payments until Nov/Dec when the price of btc got way too high and I could not afford to make a payment.

I will provide another way to hypothetically calculate what you’ve calculated, but that all doesn’t matter because no one knows what zazarb would have done with his btc, not even zazarb himself, unless of course he always keeps it in btc and never exchanges to and from fiat. In which case 1 btc is always 1 btc and he hasn’t lost anything at all should this all get sorted.

So people should STOP saying look at how much money zazarb has lost. Those people should make up their minds and stop swapping back and forth between btc is btc and then referring to profit/loss in fiat terms.

But please understand, I am not saying that I do not have a portion of the loan outstanding (not disagreeing with that), I am just saying I am NOT a scammer and have NEVER been dishonest with zazarb or anyone else.

This is not a scam accusation despite zazarb putting it into this section, but a gathering of the usual mob to bully. Scam accusations and negative trust shouldn’t be used to resolve business issues unless there is actual scamming or dishonesty going on – otherwise it is just an abuse of the system. And just because a handful of people on here jump on the bandwagon, a quick review of those people’s feedback ratings given and received versus mine will quickly put things into perspective to anyone with any grey matter between their ears. So this specific group are in no way this ‘community’.

So, back to the point of another way to hypothetically calculate what you’ve calculated.

Lets say zazarb hypothetically exchanges his btc back to fiat each time it is received. i.e he is not a trader and not looking to pick the top of the market to sell or the bottom of the market to buy.

He provides a 0.62btc loan or $750.
He expects a 0.65btc repayment or ~$780.

If the repayment is made on time he receives his 0.65btc and immediately exchanges it to fiat and gets ~$780.

All good right. But…, the customer is actually late on repayment in full. The customer makes part repayments instead over a period of many months to the total amount of 0.455btc.

If zazarb exchanges the btc each time it is received, he gets a total of ~$1,830 (250%+).

Looking at it this way, he is way in front.

NOW I am just stating the above as a HYPOTHETICAL, so people stop referring things back to fiat if their stance is the loan was in btc and btc must be paid back. Zazarb himself, you, and others in this thread have all referred to how much money he has potentially lost, at the same time as saying the loan was in btc.

Lastly, zazarb is accusing me of scamming 0.46btc – it all includes continued interest. I have never asked for, and he has never offered, a discount or reduction.

People can comment all they like, but zazarb knows that I am not a scammer, and I know I am not a scammer. And this is a business issue between zazarb and I. I choose to get a loan, so I need to deal with this from my end. He choose to get into the lending business, so he needs to deal with that from his end, not go crying to the bullies in the school yard every time there is a hiccup.

When people comment on here, I give them the courtesy and respond. I treat their opinions with respect, and I have treated everyone fairly. I have not received the same treatment in return: having been called a scammer, been called pathetic, been splashed in red, had the finger pointed at, and people rudely not responding to questions asked of them.

akamit, sorry if some on this post sounds like I am frustrated with you, I am not. Your post is one of the more fair and reasonable ones.

Cheers

Sorry no, there is no function for DT members. They should go about their business as everyone else. There is no duty on them to do anything. Some just think it's their duty. They should definitely not allow themselves to be used as proxies for non-DT members. It has always been recommended that forum members maintain their own trust lists.

I actually can't believe i just read that from you. You've been here a long time.

Cheers

Zazarb, where have i asked you to be exempt? I've never even asked you ever for a discount.

Other than the initial loan requests on your thread, for all our loans, all of our dealings have been via PM. For months you accepted interest only or part principal repayments as i continued to make payments to you. Then come November with the price of btc very high, and Christmas being the following month, i informed you i couldn't afford repayments, and I'd see how things were looking after the holiday period in January.

You recently contact me and i state the btc price is higher than before and i cannot afford to make repayments. You state in that case you'll open a scam accusation -> and here we are. BUT, you know i have not done anything to scam you.

So you using this scam accusation section and asking DT members to come to this thread to tag me red is a low act. Yes, there are cowboys on this forum that like to throw red around, but this is a business deal between you and i with no scamming or dishonesty being involved. Hiccups happen in business through no fault sometimes.

People here pointing fingers and saying 'repay the loan', as if being able to afford to pay something is a choice - what the hell. I cannot afford it.

Cheers

Vod, where exactly have i said that?

All I've said is that i cannot afford the repayment currently due to the high price of btc.

And that turns into a scam accusation.

And i say wtf, i have never ever scammed.

And your feedback would be more appropriate and accurate if it was neutral and said "has not fully repaid a loan yet...", as I have not gone dark.

Cheers

Wow. I AM NOT playing a blame excuse game. YOU ARE.

All i am saying is that there has been NO dishonesty here. There has been NO scamming here.

Why even say 'he could have sold the btc for a nice profit'? That just proves what i am saying - the reality is EVERYTHING btc related is referenced back to $$'s. And currently i cannot afford the $$ to buy the btc because it is much higher than when the loan was taken out. Next week it could fall to $1000 again and all of this drama was for nothing as i could then afford to repay.

Does zazarb pay you at all? I write a very long and detailed post to you explaining things, and you just respond with a simple paragraph referring to blame/excuse. Can you not see deeper here?

Cheers

Hi pinkman,

Thank you for adding to this discussion.

Thank you further for your offer to help. But i would like zazarb and i to sort this. It has been dealt with in private for months.

Thank you the most for having the insight and common sense to see that this matter is not a scam and should not be a scam accusation. That i appreciate sincerely. Its so easy for people to jump on the red bandwagon, but its that little be harder to look deeper and see what teally is the case.

Cheers

KWH,

Firstly, I see that you are genuinely now trying to help out – so thank you for that.

But come on, what’s with the initial heavy-handedness and such one sided position you are taking?

I see you leave people a lot of red trust with the comment  ‘outstanding loan to zazarb’.  Although outstanding loan does not equate to dishonesty/scamming, so it would be better if the comments left by you were more something like ‘user has gone dark while still having an outstanding loan’. Are you officially zazarbs proxy DT or are you just constantly called on by him in the background.

I know you do good in this community and I hope you are acting from the perspective of making this place better, but you are wrong in this matter between zazarb and I. He is abusing the scam accusation section for this thread and leaving (and getting people to leave me) red feedback as there is NO scamming going on here. There is NO dishonesty here.

There are dozens of PM’s between zazarb and I from April 2017 to now – everything has ALWAYS been communicated. And I’ve continued to make payments up until Christmas because of Christmas time and the very high price of btc. Only now that the btc price is dropping fast that he decides to make this public nd accuse me of being a scammer - WTF. He has only posted a small portion of all our PM’s.

You state “You are talking about things (BTC skyrocketing) that were not in the original agreement. This has no bearing on the loan repayment.” Well of course it does. BTC went up 10x – 20x so I could no longer afford the payments – that definitely has a bearing.

You state “The lender did not make BTC prices soar”. Well neither did I as the borrower.

You state “You should have nailed the terms to USD or a certain payback amount down but you did not.” Well neither did zazarb.

You write “goose20, you know very well how volatile BTC can be, you should have set better terms for the loan. You agreed to the terms and got caught in the inflated BTC price. This is your responsibility, you need to fulfill the terms you agreed to. It does not matter how much you have already paid or will pay, nor how much you gained or lost, what matters are the terms you agreed to. I would strongly suggest you make this right as soon as possible.”

What a one-sided view. You could just have easily said something like:
Zazarb, you know very well how volatile BTC can be, you should have set better terms for the loan. You agreed to not take collateral from goose20 because of his high reputation and because you had so many profitable and positive dealings with him. He cannot currently fulfil the terms agreed to because of the massive increase in btc price, not because he is scamming you or because he is dishonest. You should remove this thread from scam accusations section as it is not a scam. You should change your feedback from negative to neutral if you want the public to know there is an outstanding loan. Goose20 is not untrustworthy and you know that – he has communicated with you and kept making payments for months to come good on your agreement.

 

KWH, so let us break this down:

Zazarb’s behaviour =

Long-term member of the forum.

Many positive trades, but also quite a few feedbacks in red.

Provided a no-collateral loan to a long-established client/customer.

The most recent loan was provided in April 2017 with a due date of May 2017. Then the btc price started to spike and kept up its meteoric rise to the point the customer could not afford to make payment. Everything was always communicated from the customer via PM.

Price of BTC starts to fall, the customer still cannot payment – so he goes public.

Starts a Scam Accusation and begins the bullying process despite no dishonesty or scamming being part of the matter.

On this loan he is down currently.

On all business with goose20 he is up.

On all business in his lending thread he is up.

Charges up to 365% interest (sickly high) on loans despite holding at times over 120% collateral (very minimal risk).

States he provides loans not as a business but as a service to this community.

 

Goose20’s behaviour =

Long-term member of the forum.

Over 100 positive trades all with exceptional feedback.

Despite being on DT for a long time (was on ms.escrow list), I only left red tag once - to someone who truly scammed this community. I did not use the DT position to be part of the forum police.

Went about my business with no drama and complete honesty.

Requested numerous no collateral loans – and received many no collateral loans from several members, not just zazarb.  All paid back with interest and with no issues.

The most recent loan was taken out in April 2017 with a due date of May 2017. Then the btc price started to spike and kept up its meteoric rise to the point I could not afford to make payment. Everything was always communicated to zazarb.

 

KWH, I respect you as I’ve seen you on this forum a million times over the last 5 years. But I must state again, the stance you have taken is wrong in this matter between zazarb and I. I do not understand how you could be taking such a one-sided view, at all.


Cheers

I disagree. You choose to come to this thread and contribute. But simply stating 'fix it' without any suggestion as to realistically how is unhelpful.

I have communicated at every turn with zazarb.
I took out a equiv $750 loan with an expectation repayment be ~$780. Now it ends up over $5k. Last month was over $10k. I cannot make btc, i can only buy it with $$.

Its easy to say fix it, but is that really fair and reasonable in such extraordinary circumstances...

Cheers

Hi KWH,

Thank you for contributing.
I get what you are saying, but how is this a scam or scam attempt? I am not saying i have repaid in full, i am simply saying this has nothing to do with scamming or being dishonest.

I am unable to continue to make the high repayments. What would you suggest? What would you do if you were in my situation?

I stand by my feedback as I believe neutral feedback is more appropriate from zazarb to me with a proper and full explanation of the facts and context. I have not, and never have, set out to scam anybody ever.

Cheers

Hi magneto,

Thanks for your 2 cents.

Just to clarify, there were no missed repayments. Things were always communicated with zazarb and initially things were agreed, as in agreed that I'd make the interest payment and roll over the principal. It was only months later and after btc price spiked substantially that it became impossible for me to keep making payments. Remember btc was up 10x - 20x last year. But at every time, i communicated things with zazarb.

My stance is i accept i haven't repaid in full. But not because of scammy or dishonesty, but by the 10x increase.

If you were in my position, after repaying 0.455btc and $1830 and after repaying 5.93btc of only 5.745btc received, would you pay another $3k - $10k towards an original  $750 loan?  If you would, i respect your virtue and romanticism that 1btc is 1btc. But for mine, the reality is everything to do with btc is referred back to fiat. We are no where near a point where things are referenced in btc alone.

I think it fair that if someone takes the time to post in this thread, no matter which way the thinking, that they state what they would do in my situation - considering the full context of things. I truly believe any fair and reasonable person would see that this is not a scam attempt. Zazarb is ahead overall in all our deals over the past 2-3 years. He knows me as an honest person which is why he lent me that much btc with no collateral. So did several other lenders - my feedback and reputation is solid.

Cheers

Hi MadZ,

Thanks for your input. What you say is fair. But please do not misunderstand what my position is.

Keep in mind that i have had over a dozen successful deals with zazarb, during which time the price moved up and down - there was never an issue of repayment.

However the reality that has led us here is the 10x increase in price. And whether it is reasonable and practical for someone to pay $5,000 - $10,000 for a $750 loan that was expected to be a ~$780 repayment. And whether non-repayment in full under such circumstances is a scam attempt.

It is unfortunate circumstances yes, but not a scam. I can understand zazarb's frustration here, but he also has to understand mine. How many people in the world would have continued to repay, even pay $1800, let alone hand over $5k and more. Any reasonable person can see what is fair here.

I respect your opinion. Hopefully you've understood the situation correctly. And if you truly think if you were in my position you'd hand over $5k+, then so be it. But i disagree with you and your negative feedback. I think you are taking a simplistic view and not paying any regard to the bigger picture.

This issue has come up before on the forum for others when the price first jumped over the $1000 mark. There were people of course on both sides. It's a similar issue before the Mt Gox bankruptcy trustee - he froze the debt to the $$ value at time of default, not btc amount. Using that same application here and I've overpaid zazarb. Things are as they are and its frustrating for us both.

It is complicated. Not simple. Definitely not a scam from my end. That is my position here.

Cheers

-- RESERVED  (i will respond when i review this) --

In the meantime, my response is:

I am not a scammer. I have not scammed zazarb. Zazarb  opening this as a scam accusation is ridiculous.

Quick facts are:
- in April 2017, i borrowed 0.62btc with a repayment of 0.65btc approx 1 month later. In $$ terms, that equated to loan of $750 with expected repayment of $780.
- This loan was after many dealings and previous loans with zazarb, all which went smoothly and were repaid with interest. Between 10 to 20 deals in all.
- But then the price of BTC started to rise quickly and a lot.
As the price continued to rise, i made 7 monthly part repayments total of 0.455Btc / $1830.
- By November and December the price was up 10x to 20x and it was impossible to keep paying.

This issue is due to the massive increase in BTC price and not my honesty. I have well over 100 successful trades on this forum with a very good record.

Summary
Zazarb = despite the big picture and overall context of the circumstances, i need to keep paying, even though it is many thousands of $$$"s now.
Goose20 = i continued to keep paying month after month, even as  BTC kept rising but it became unfair, unreasonable and unrealistic to continue due to massive volatility and price surge of Btc. The last loan i repaid 0.455btc/ $1830 of the 0.62btc/$750 loan. And of the previous 10 loans including this one, i received a total of 5.745btc from zazarb and paid him 5.930btc. He is at least +.185btc.

Zazarb has said his loaning is not done as a  business but rather as a service to this community. He is well in front in his dealings with me. I can not of anticipated such a huge spike in price.

There are a lot more PMs between myself and zazarb about this issue which zazarb has not posted here. I have asked his permission, and he has approved, that i may post these here to provide a fuller and more proper context. State a fact without proper context is misleading imo.

Cheers
goose20

Is this still for sale?
Will it work in Australia?
Will it work on an Adwords account that already has campaigns running?

Thx

Coin 1:  0.011 btc
Coin 2:  0.007 btc
Coin 3:  0.007 btc