I will not bring real banks into this anymore getting tired as well as it's 3 AM here, logging off now. It was good to talk!

You would be surprised how this turns out when the responsible party is an actual bank http://www.calbankers.com/compliance-bulletin/bank-held-liable-wire-transfer-losses-phishing-scam
Of course MtGox is not one. If it were one, it would be required to either refund all of them, or put barriers in place

Correct, I am assuming that once the money is inside MtGox they log all the internal transaction with BTC addresses. I know they log them because I have account history. I assume they are associated with BTC txn data because I can't see it working otherwise.

If it's in their MtGox account, there is no problem. If their balance is not sufficient for the account to remain solvent, it should still be put as a liability on their account.


If that were true, they should make it a lot harder to shoot yourself in the foot. Like a real warning!
Although, I bet it is surprisingly easy to figure out what's where from that data (just a graph traversal).

Right, but since all this data is available, they can trace it (remember, in your scenario, that they also have internal ids for transactions and tie them to users, and that is how it is resolvable). Surely they should charge a retrieval fee and return the money.

I will still "gamble", I will just not do it with MtGox anymore! 

You are right, then of course this is not about money, but this is about teaching MtGox proper manners! And for the lawyer, trying a BTC case (of which many will follow), doing a good deed, and doing their job.

It doesn't matter whether BTC itself is regulated right now for the issue at hand. What matters is that MtGox is regulated.
Note that in the scenario where I go through the police, it is actually possible to prove everything (which is the main reason money laundering via bitcoin does not happen en masse yet), as long as the investigation gains access to MtGox data, which is what would happen in Germany, but before that I could try it in Japan.

Not that I will actually go to the police myself, I don't have time for that
Any lawyer interested to try a BitCoin case, do a good deed and make some cash?

Ah, but the the "quite" part is in the eye of the first person that did not see it.
Please be advised, that MtGox only lets you know about this incompatibility if you happen to hover over one of the identical blue help icons on that page.

Yes, but MtGox does log my send transaction, and does know about the received transaction from SatoshiDice. For each transaction they know about the exit point, the following entry point, and they can trace the final point at an MtGox address tied to an MtGox account.

MtGox, however is a real company and operates under Japanese law and international trade agreements. The company is still liable to the customer in more ways than they'd like to be, even if tries to set its own rules -- the law always takes priority. Your analogy is not quite the same, because bitcoin are a lot more traceable than that.


Can BitCoin stay unregulated for much longer? Money laundering won't stop by itself, as everyone chooses to avoid tax when the risk is low and the tax is high. Since it seems that somebody has already figured out how to artificially scatter transactions so that they effectively become untraceable, the are many ways to launder money with this...

CanadianGuy, GodfatherBond, escrow.ms and others who may feel like posting before reading: a company that behaves like this is not to be trusted!

Yeah it really sucks. All it would take them to prevent this from ever happening is one line of javascript, since SatoshiDice addresses are public and don't change (they also all start with 1dice).

I understand they must be new to this, but so far I've been told that they won't deal with my issue at all. I must be the only user who did not guess to hover over that one generic blue help icon on that page.  

While it may be complicated or time consuming to retrieve it, they do not get to keep it. A regular business practice would be to charge a fee on retrieving. However, understand that they do not have the rights to my money just because I made a mistake like that!
 
WuLabsWuTecH, thank you for this comprehensive explanation. As I understand it though, there is one gotcha: MtGox must have full access to all accounts to operate, so they must also be able to transfer money from the account where it was erroneously deposited to back to my account (as long as that account is still solvent after such transfer).

Hi, I would like to post a scam report but the system won't let me.
I've posted my story in the newbies forum for now https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=219462.0

So I played some SatoshiDice from MtGox, as I was a newbie and their system provided no warning when I put a 1dice address in.
SatoshiDice sent me back around 700 EUR (one of the lucky bets txn is below).
Of course I never got that money, as I found out later the return addresses MtGox provides are not tied to your account, and the money appears somewhere else within MtGox-operated accounts network.

Watch me appeal to MtGox Customer Support, and watch them fail harder with every response (tldr; incompetent support with no human decency and lacking the concept of private property, thinking they just get to keep my money!)

Below is a complete account of an MtGox Customer Support issue:

Me - May 15 18:36
Hi,

I've used SatoshiDice several times before accidentally hovering over the help icon and reading that it doesn't work (as I found out later by browsing the forums, mtgox does not seem to provide the correct return address). I have over 500 EUR in bitcoins that never reached my address. Please send me that money, I need it as soon as possible.

I have a usability suggestion for you. All SatoshiDice addresses start with 1dice. If the users puts in an address that looks like an SD address, display the warning that it won't work with mtgox (or even disable the button). Of course, the real solution would be to make it work, but this would at least mitigate the problem for now.

Also, it would help if the chat displayed wait time estimate. I've waited for over half an hour on the chat before writing this email.

 
James Support
Support Desk
Hello,

Thank you for the email. Let me inform you that the send address is used for only temporarily and it can not be used as received address.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

Me - May 15, 2013 22:26
Yes, I already understand that (as should be clear from my message). I will not do that again, and I have provided a usability suggestion that should help others in understanding that. When will you send me my money?

Me - May 15, 2013 22:30
Here is an example of my satoshidice bet http://src.satoshidice.com/longpoll.php?tx=5c2f36654a40e415f343e70e5077ab04dde01ff194df439f6d17b686842f32a4

The address is temporary, but it still belongs to mtgox, so you received the winning from that bet, correct?

James Support - May 15, 2013 22:37
Support Desk
Hello,

Let me inform you that we will not able to receive the funds to the Mt.Gox. Please be clear send address cant be used as receive address.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team


Me - May 16, 2013 20:28
Please do take a few minutes and answer the questions I've asked so far.

As long as I understand:
* You know about the situation, as the hint states
* You did not inform me of this problem when I was doing a transaction, while you had all means to warn me and prevent the situation from arising
* The money is now in one of the accounts you have access to

The conclusion I can make out is: you have my money, you have gained it by negligence.
In light of the recent case (http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Mt-Gox-Dwolla-Warrant-5-14-13.pdf) I doubt you would like more attention from authorities right now (in my case German authorities, as I am a German resident).

You would be wise to give me the decency of a human response explaining the situation in detail. Please consider escalating this request if you do not have enough authority to do so.

James Support - May 16, 2013 21:53
Support Desk
Hello,

Thank you for the email. Please send us the sending and receiving address that the funds has been sent to you.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

Me - May 17, 2013 19:16
Unfortunately, mtgox does not show the transaction ids in account history

Please provide me with the transaction numbers for all the withdrawals to 1dice addresses from my account since 2013/05/14, then I will contact SatoshiDice to provide you with the sending and receiving addresses

James Support - May 17, 2013 22:03
Support Desk
Hello,

To check the account history of you account. Please click on Account history of your account and click on top right corner for the account history.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

Me - May 19, 2013 20:04
James, Account history does not show the transaction IDs! I need the transaction IDS!

Me - May 19, 2013 20:27
Please look up withdrawals to 1dice addresses from my account since 2013/05/14, and provide me with transaction addresses, just like I asked in the previous message.

James Support - May 19, 2013 20:30
Support Desk
Hello,

Please be advised we do not have control of your account and you can have reference number from your account history.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

Me - May 20, 2013 22:29
> you can have reference number from your account history.
Here they are (attached). Please kindly tell me where I can find reference numbers?

 mtgox satoshidice withdrawals.png (quick view)

James Support - May 20, 2013 23:00
Support Desk
Hello,

For your information, the transactions for the past three months will be active and other transactions will be archived. the option is available in the account history and it can be downloaded in CSV format at the top right corner. Please contact us for further assistance.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

Me - May 22, 2013 00:40
Hi James,

The CSV File does not give me any additional information either, see attached file.

 mtgox-csv.png (quick view)

James Support - May 22, 2013 01:48
Support Desk
Hello,

Thank you for the email. We do not have the control of your account. Please be refer the below attachment for your reference.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

 SatoshiDice.JPG (quick view)
Note: support staff fail, they didn't bother to look at what their system actually shows. this attachment was not helpful, it was just a screenshot of SatoshiDice help icon hover warning that had been discussed in my first message

Me - May 24, 2013 01:22
Please at least return this one:
88dda561b795f8eb320b5330236830f13c9e19e8148145b0250c61bb755711d0

Danny - May 24, 2013 02:13
Support Desk
Hello,

Kindly note that our system will not work with SatoshiDice and it is not possible for us to locate the transaction. Please file a police report in order for the police to investigate the case and make an effort to retrieve your funds. We will cooperate with the police authority in providing the necessary information for the investigation, but we are unable to reimburse any funds.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

Me - May 24, 2013 09:24
No wonder people DDoS you

Danny - May 24, 2013 09:37
Support Desk
Hello,

We have already explained in the withdrawals page about our system no compatibility with SatoshiDice. Contact us for any further assistance.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

Me - May 26, 2013 09:01
Your explanation came too late and my money is in an account held by you. How do you even dare steal my stuff and make me go through police..

James Support - May 26, 2013 11:28
Support Desk
Hello,

Let me inform you that the funds are not held by us and we did not receive the money. You can contact SatoshiDice or please file a police report in order for the police to investigate the case and make an effort to retrieve your funds.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

Me - May 26, 2013 19:08
So who holds the funds? The transaction states the money was sent to an address operated by you.

@bsdpunk Did you succeed in the end?