Assumption is the mother of all fuckups.

TH 'started a business' without the necessary capital to fund it; took a huge order from cloudhashing and apparently did not get a contract in place specifying that they were allowed to use those pre-order funds to buy the chips and cloudhashing absolutely could not cancel unless Bitsyncom failed to deliver, and if that happened they would be required to wait until TH got their money back from Bitsyncom; when cloudhashing cancelled, TH opened up pre-orders to get cash flow to be able to refund cloudhashing.
That was guessed in this thread, and confirmed in this thread by TH.
When they announced pre-orders, they claimed it was because of demand from the community to take pre-orders; it was not until AFTER they took orders and people's money that they admitted they needed that money to refund a previous customer.  In short, they knowingly willfully and purposely mislead EACH AND EVERY single customer who pre-ordered from them.

They assumed chips would be on time
They assumed nothing would go wrong with the open source board and firmware development
They banked on these assumptions and bought components and chips, spending probably a goddamn good portion of what funds they had left, plus spent money on an office and utilities and who knows what other business costs - ALL of that before they could even reasonably guarantee that they would be able to fulfill the commitments they had undertaken and paid for by the money they were spending.  They took a LOT of risk with everyone ELSE'S money.  You risk investors' money, you DO NOT risk customers' money.  You can argue that as long as they refund us, they didn't risk our money; except that in order to refund us, they have to use some other customer's money.  What happens if they have to refund those later customers as well?

They committed in this thread to telling people where they stood in line for orders, and allowing them to make the choice of cancelling or keeping their orders.  They failed to follow through with that commitment.
They have severely lacked in even the most basic communication

Now they've come along and admitted they're legally liable for refunds, but insist that customers who want them have to wait 3 months.  Conveniently, they're opening up 'reservations' for their hosting and considering next gen chip products.  You can get your reservation for as little as 750 dollars (25% of 3000, the amount needed to buy the smallest block of hashing power they're selling).
Gee, you think maybe they're using the next batch of customers' money to refund those of us in line now waiting for refunds?  

First order went bad - get more orders to refund it and hope nothing goes wrong with plan b.  Plan b goes bad - get more orders and hope nothing goes wrong with plan c.  What the hell happens if something falls through with plan c?
Do you see the problem here?

They've certainly made more fuckups than just one or 2 little things.  Anyone who can't or won't admit that is plain out being dishonest, either to everyone else or to themselves.
Ask ANY successful businessperson, corporation, business professor, consultant, advisor, or even student and they'll tell you TH has made several of the most major fuckups possible when it comes to running a business.  I still don't attribute it to malice, but abject fucking stupidity and arrogance.
end. of. story.

Now the odds are that sooner or later one of their plans won't fail and will work out.  It's just a matter of whether they can keep kicking the can down the road, getting orders to refund and placate earlier customers, and holding people at bay long enough for that to happen.
Sadly, I seriously doubt they're learning any lessons from any of this; rather, if they do manage to keep it going long enough to work out, instead of realizing how lucky they got and learning not to do this shit again I have a feeling they're going to take it as vindication that they were right.

Ok, then I stand corrected.
That sucks then, and hopefully he comes back and gets it finished soon.  I guess at this point I'm just weary of the whole goddamn mess.
Too many people making commitments (in the form of posts saying what they're going to do for people/their customers/their prospective customers) and then not holding up to those commitments.

Bitsyncom fucked everyone with chip delivery
BKK has apparently gone AWOL for whatever reason that only he probably knows
who knows how many other companies or group orders have either failed to deliver, whether their fault or not, with varying levels of support or lack thereof to their customers
TH has made quite a few commitments that they didn't hold up to; regardless of whether they *had* to or not, once they say they're going to they should
examples - after orders went live posting that they would let everyone know where they stood in line for orders and *let them decide whether to keep or cancel their order*, which they then never did
saying they'd post info or pics or videos of various things by certain times and not doing it
saying they're going to be better at CS and still not responding to tickets

I'm sure they have their troubles, and imo some of that is their own doing through their own missteps and misguided decisions.  Some of that is not, and is 110% the blame of Bitsyncom.  
It's just really disheartening to see the situation as it is right now; I perceive it as every 'businessperson' just trying to get whatever gains they can, even if it's at the expense of others.  It makes it hard to trust anything in the Bitcoin mining hardware arena right now.

Ok, point conceded on that.  And those people would have every right to blame him if he doesn't deliver.  TH and TH customers, however, really don't unless TH has already paid him which I don't believe they have.

Citation?

The ONLY thing I've seen as far as them paying BKK was that they said they would pay him a small licensing fee for each board they made and sold, because he was doing the project open hw and open source and deserved to be compensated.
As far as whether they HAVE paid him anything, I haven't seen anything to that effect.  My understanding was that they would pay him after they had boards made, assembled, working, and going out to customers.

If that's the case, then while it sucks that he's disappeared, remember this - he is not demanding any fees for using his design, he is not locking down the schems or FW in any way to stop people from using his design even if they don't pay him, he is doing this in his free time (I'm sure he has a life of his own, and somewhat recent posts indicated he was away a lot due to floors being done in his place) and doing it all open for the community.  He has said he would appreciate being compensated by those who use his design, but hasn't made it a condition of using his design.

Kinda hard to go putting a whole lot of blame on him in this case.  He's doing it essentially 'for free' except for what people choose to give him if they use his design.

Ok, I'll shut up and see where this goes then

I'm sorry... I've tried to be fair about the fact that the current situation isn't your fault (though as you've admitted in this thread that doesn't change your obligations), but seriously?  Would you honestly trust Bitsyncom to deliver gen 2 chips on time, after the miserable clusterfuck that the existing order has become?  Would you seriously ask any of your customers to extend that trust not only to you, but by extension to Bitsyncom?

Sure Bitsyncom, you fucked us once and caused a lot of damage to our relationship with our customers, but we'll go ahead and order from you for gen 2 and trust you again!  Wait, what?

It's all good and fine to try to have some optimism, but just like the first time around, you either don't mention (or downplay) the risks of chips not being delivered on time/at all.  You come across as "oh we will have these at X time" rather than "we believe we should have these at X time, but the risk is if they don't show up everyone's just stuck".  While people *should* know this, and most probably do, some don't and even some who do will take that as a sign that you have a reason to be confident that chips will be delivered on time.  That's reinforced by the statement that you'll get an extra month and a half to work out board problems, rather than you'll get an extra month and a half or however long it takes chips to arrive.  It sets people's expectations, and then there's horrible blowout when those expectations are not met.

I gotta call a spade a spade here... I get the impression that there's a lack of lessons being learned and heeded right now.  This being one of the ones that's lacking.

Actually, anyone who takes the 10 BTC widget that generates 5 BTC valued at $200 each is a short sighted fucking moron, chasing short term gains over long term advantage. Edit: not necessarily a moron, the possibility exists that their strategy is short term gains on purpose.  To each their own.
Simply put:
5 BTC valued at $200 each = $1000, but for each $1 BTC goes up in the future they only gain $5 of value, and has a LOT of room for downward price movement.
400 BTC valued at $200 each = $800, $200 less at the time of calculation, but for each $1 BTC goes up in the future they gain $400 of value, and very little room for downward price movement.

You may well be right, and most miners may well choose the 5 BTC/$200 value, but they're fucking retarded likely cheating themselves if they do.
The 400 BTC/$2 value has far more upside potential and reward, and less downside risk.  It's the obvious choice if profit is the motivator.

No, you don't fucking get it is the problem.
It's not meant to be a direct comparison, it's called an analogy.
It does not matter what the size of the company is.  Taking a customer's money under the guise of a purchase (not an investment, or a purchase where the customer agreed to lose their money if something went wrong, which we did not), failing to deliver a product, and doing anything at all other than providing a 100% refund is the goddamn same no matter who the company is.

Not according to some around here... the customers knew the risks and chose to take them, remember?
/sarcasm

Oh there's PLENTY to see here.  For instance:
How the aftermath of this is going to play out
Depending on what direction this goes, just how much more of a clusterfuck it can possibly turn into.
Keeping track of things until people have their money back.
Satisfying morbid curiosity - just like watching a train wreck... you don't wanna look but you can't turn away

Oh don't get me wrong.  I was just figuring you didn't realize that they actually gave this answer themselves.
As far as you saying it all along, I've been saying for awhile that this was going to go bad, and defending people wanting refunds against certain people here jacking off TH and saying they're committing fraud or being immoral by going after refunds.

Honestly, I don't see any way (unless TH has only their own money sunk into this and not pre-order money, which they've already admitted they used preorder money) for TH to give full refunds to everyone.
What I see happening is them offering partial refunds and saying they're so sorry but it's not their fault and it's beyond their control, and I see the usual suspects defending them on that, and continuing to refuse to acknowledge that using customers' preorder money to fund your business before you can deliver the product is both a bad idea and in a lot of jurisdictions illegal.
I've been called a 'pretend entrepreneur' for pointing that out; I've been called an 'armchair engineer' for pointing out that when it comes to whether a product will work or not, you don't assume, you test.

Honestly I blame it on the way society is moving these days.  More and more, I look at the world around me and I see a complete lack of willingness to take personal responsibility for one's actions.  Along with that, I see people defending others who could have avoided issues if they had just done shit right, but wanted to take shortcuts or got greedy and it all went bad.
People forcing the consequences or results of their choices onto other people, because 'what am I supposed to do?  I'm in this situation, I have no choice! It's not my fault!' yeah, well... who put you in that situation?  Oh, that's right, you did.
As long as we continue the trend of enabling others' bad behavior by defending it, whether it be with bitcoin, with preorders, or anything else in life... we will continue to see people behaving badly and that bad behavior escalating.

As far as this goes, however... nothing is certain at this point.  Yifu is making the returns form, but I haven't seen anything specifically stating that he's cancelling and refunding orders.
Maybe he's just offering refunds to those who want them.  Maybe TH will keep their orders and hope to get the chips.
Maybe those chips will arrive, maybe they won't.  If they do, maybe they'll arrive quickly, or maybe they'll take a year or longer.  At this point, I don't know, and I'm not entirely sure it even matters.

First, I'm not exactly a TH defender here.  In fact, I'd say I'm nearly as far from defending them as I could possibly be, so they damn sure ain't hiding behind me.

Second, THEY DID ANSWER IT THEMSELVES.  I was just quoting what they said.  While I certainly am not going to defend them, why should they repeat themselves when they've already answered the question publicly for all to see?

I wouldn't celebrate that, personally... if BitSyncom refunds the chip orders and doesn't send out chips, then TH has no chips with which to fulfill orders.
They've already spent money on office rent, components, possibly paying themselves, etc.
They've already more or less stated that if the chips don't show they can't refund everyone's money in full, only a portion of it.
That means that everyone who hasn't already managed to get a refund, willingly from TH or by force through paypal dispute or CC dispute, would lose money on this deal if that happens- with nothing to show for it.

Ya know what?  I don't even care if I get banned for this; it needs to be said.
Go fuck yourself.  Go fuck yourself with a rusty goddamn kitchen knife, you rank amateur.

All anyone has asked for was for YOUR COMPANY TO HOLD UP TO ITS COMMITMENTS.
Ya know, how you posted a 'no bs' bulk chip order policy?  9-10 weeks lead time, no refunds, no games, no bs?

So much for no bs.  You just can't admit that you / your company failed to hold up their end of the bargain, failed to give prompt and clear communication as to what was going on, and brought the entire situation upon yourselves.  What did you think was going to happen, everyone was just going to be happy go lucky about having deadlines blown with no communication or answers as to why?
YES, sometimes things happen.  Delays happen.  It's the way it is.  But when you're dealing with someone purporting to be a business, you usually expect at least some communication in a PROMPT fashion - not this sit and let everyone stew and worry and speculate for a few weeks, pop in with excuses and promises of shipping again by end of week, and then disappear again for a few more weeks before popping in again with more excuses and saying oh now we're shipping again like we said we would be a week or 2 ago, and blaming the community and your own customers for YOUR failings.

They've already responded to that question.
"Again, in case the chips never arrive, we might be able to return a portion of everybody's money."

note the 'might' and 'a portion' parts.
I think people are going to just have to hope that the chips do eventually show up, no matter how seemingly futile that hope may be.
This isn't the only issue of course, but it is most certainly the most prevalent and immediate for most TH customers at this time.

Oh look I've got so and so on ignore!  oh look I can't see what you're saying, you must be in a frenzy!
Troll.  Seriously that's all you're doing here; being a juvenile troll.
You wanna ignore someone, grow the f8ck up and ignore them and shut up about it. 

I can respect those who disagree with me when they're able to voice an argument, no matter if it's uninformed or not.  But people like you... ugh.  Just evolve already.

I've only seen (although it's quite possible I've missed others) 1 person advocating en masse refunds, and I don't know that will have much impact on people's decisions.  For my part, I've been very careful to say I'm not telling anyone else to stick it out or get a refund.  Yes, I have been vocal about the things I feel or flat out know TH has done wrong and I've tried to be clear as to why I feel this is no longer a viable transaction; but I've done so for the sake of putting the information out there, both factual and opinion, not to try to sway people to jump ship but to let them take the information and do with it what they will - ignore it, consider it, interpret it etc.

Everyone that is on the fence about this: don't listen to ANYONE.  Do not listen to anyone telling you to get a refund, and do not listen to anyone telling you to stick it out.
Make the decision for yourself based upon the information out there, what you feel it means for you, your risk tolerance and what you feel is right.

Look this is a business transaction, and should be treated as such.  You were offered the chance to purchase a piece of equipment for a certain price, and you decided to avail yourself of that opportunity.
Bringing emotions into a business transaction is bad business.  A business transaction should be conducted with logic and information - information on the past, present, and indicators of where the future is likely to go.
TH did not do this out of the goodness of their hearts, or to do the community a favor, or any other such emotion based reason.  They did it to make a profit.
You did not purchase to help TH make money, or out of the goodness of your heart, or to help someone else get a paycheck.  You did it because you wanted merchandise, and the price was acceptable to you.

You started out the transaction on a logical basis, keep it that way and make your own decisions.  Don't allow anyone, regardless of which side they're on, tell you which to do.  It's not their place to do so.
It's funny that the pro-th side bitches about a few people saying people should get refunds, and then does the same bloody thing for their side.

So, to reiterate something I've said before - how long do you wait?  You say 2 weeks after the chips arrive, but that's meaningless.  What if the chips never arrive?
Are you going to just wait forever, and if they never show up, continue to defend it by saying well he still hasn't missed his deadline?  If not, how long is long enough?

I already firmly believe the chips will never show up.  Yifu's explanations don't add up.  There's too many indications that something is going on that Bitsyncom doesn't want anyone knowing, and it's not good.
You're entitled to sit and wait if you like, and I'm not going to say otherwise, nor will I tell you you're wrong to do so.  It's your money it's your choice.
I'm not willing to become a passthrough victim to Bitsyncom's scam, that's the bottom line.

But just to satisfy those who are nitpicking on my comparison due to size, fine.
Let's say you go to the small time local electronics shop down the road.  They're advertising a super high power LED flashlight you think is cool, and taking pre-orders for it.
You preorder one and pay in full up front.  They say it'll be delivered 2 weeks after they get the LEDs from some other company that already has a less than stellar reputation and some concern about whether they're entirely on the up and up, or maybe just enough to keep people coming back for a bit longer
Are you seriously telling me that if something went sideways and they didn't get their parts; they couldn't tell you when they'd get the parts other than they were 'pretty confident they'll start shipping the parts to us soon'; that you'd just be content to sit and wait?  That you'd be content to lose your money if those LEDs never came in?

If that's really what you're saying, you are the wet dream of scammers and dishonest cheating corporations everywhere. (not saying that all businesses and corporations are dishonest and cheating, just the ones that are)

Oh and by the way - after an amount of time you'd ask gamestop for a refund but only because you know they have recourse with sony.  Guess what?  TH has recourse with Bitsyncom.  WE DON'T.
So are you saying that if Sony wasn't a huge corporate giant, you wouldn't ask for a refund?  You'd seriously be ok with losing your money and not getting your merchandise, just because well gamestop doesn't really have any recourse against their supplier so I guess I'm just boned?

As for your sympathy, I neither asked for it nor desire it nor does it mean anything to me.  I don't need anyone's sympathy - I won't get my merchandise, but I will get my money back.  From there, it doesn't matter.