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I guess I don't understand why you have a limited amount of vaults this a finate amount of space, and have it be able to store unlimited data for free. Even if it is "free" then I can still turn around and sell it. If someone gave me free and unlimited Bitcoins I'd turn around and sell it on Bitstamp. I can cut Dropbox prices in half and offer a similar service. Using the best server I can find for $30/month it can generate a monthly profit of $13,696. Sure that won't last as the market corrects, but perhaps will last longer than you think. Dropbox has gotten away with charging 100x for the past few years reselling Amazon S3. There is nothing stopping us from also developing nodes specifically for Maidsafe with the exact same software, but Storj can continue to make a profit regardless. Gotta diversify. there are two main reasons why MaidSafe will be able to offer free storage: 1) Data deduplication - since the vast majority of the data that is going to be stored on the network is going to be the same data (movies, music, games, books etc) it wont be necessary to store them more then n number of times (n depends on the amount of activity that data sees in the network) 2) Safecoin value - Safecoin's value is going to rise because of it's properties (anonymous, fast confirmation) and because it will be embedded as a payment mechanism in the network itself (escrow, timestamp and whatever else ends up being developed). Since Safecoin's value is going to rise the farming of the storage will be more valuable because you get the Safecoins and therefore the price of storage is going to be zero for as long as Safecoins are worth buying HDD and farming To try to really hammer the point home for anyone that doesn't follow, imagine this - what if Bitcoin instead of using CPU's to solve complex math problems for mining, uses HDD to store data for mining(farming). Well that's Safecoin. So instead of meaningless work with mining as a proof of work you get storage as a proof of resource. Look if you think you can sell this and make money doing this then by all means go for it. But I think you are in for a uphill battle that doesn't make any sense on many levels. And also why build it if you know that you have a year at most before storage as a service is commoditized? P.S. this is all hypothetical and I have no proof that MaidSafe will work as advertised. I sure hope so, but that remains to be seen |
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It most certainly has cookies. I'm kinda insulted you asked. You keep assuming that payment of storage is going to be in Safecoins but I have to reiterate just one more time that storage will be FREE on the SAFE network. This will significantly reduce friction for user acquisition for MaidSafe and make things a lot harder for you to pay your nodes and charge the users. Free market rulz --> C.R.E.A.MMy suggestion to you is to work your ass of on hunting down devs to use your platform to add value because user acquisition is going to be hard without a superior product. Well I've done my job here. Now back to being depressed after listening to Adam Backs Bitcoin sidechain project which has the potential to singlehandedly destroy all alt-chains (except MaidSafe of course  ) I guess my investing days are going to be rather short. Going to be interesting to see how this is going to pan out... |
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Well Bitcoin has a much different timescale. 3 months is almost an eternity in Bitcoinland. I am not sure what you mean by this, if you could elaborate it would be very helpful. Why reinvent the wheel when MaidSafe can just plug in to Storj and get an existing userbase? Since we integrate tightly with them we benefit as well. We'll this is why I even started this conversation, I asked you why don't you build this on the MaidSafe network. By using a Storjcoin you are building a ecosystem outside MaidSafe and thus directly damaging MaidSafe. Why do you think that you will be able to use the Safe network for storaging files that you charge for? MaidSafe is in no way getting your userbase since you are making them use Storjcoin and therefore it's not a symbiotic relationship, as you suggested, but rather a parasitic one. We help them build front end services, and Bitcoin 2.0 integration, while they can focus on the more algorithmic Internet 2.0. I mean we are taking about replacing billion dollar marketplaces here, no one is going to be able to do it single-handedly. What I meant by Bitcoin 2.0 is that it's going to be more advanced (in some ways e.g. anonymous and instant confirmation). I don't really understand what did you mean by Bitcoin 2.0 integration? Does it have something to do with ethereum? I completely agree, on the other hand, that you should be building front end services but they should be built on top of Safe network and using Safecoin. You loose absolutely nothing and gain everything. 1) You are a part of a platform that is going to rival the Internet itself with a built in payment system more advanced then Bitcoin (again, if this all pans out as planned) 2) You charge for added value in Safecoins which are poised to be a great investment 3) You get extra monies out of development pool ( there will be a fund that rewards developers with 10% of all new Safecoins) 4) You only build apps and the rest is taken care of 5)  6) Profit well this one falls flat on it's ass since MaidSafe is not going to charge for storage.
Also good luck trying to get the average person of the street trying out your new decentralized storage system when they can just use dropbox. What I'm trying to say is those who win on bitcointalk and r/bitcoin will have a huge advantage
Incorrect. I can't just magically store 100 TB of data on the MaidSafe network for free. I have to have Safecoin, and Safecoin has a trade value on an exchange. It costs me money to store stuff.
Pretty easy sell for the average consumer. I just say its 10x cheaper than Dropbox, NSA can't read all your data, but it works pretty much the same way they are used to they are pretty much sold at this point. I add that you can sell your hard drive for Storjcoins they are ready to sign up. I call double incorrect. I suggest you read this e-mail thread: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/maidsafe-development/HfdZ3WPQoAg or this excellent blog post: http://metaquestions.me/2014/04/02/project-safe-is-this-the-fair-business-model-at-last/And finally the white paper which is also a piece of work: https://github.com/maidsafe/Whitepapers/blob/master/Project-Safe.mdIn other words MaidSafe has you beat in any way possible. Resistance is futile. everything you said just replace Storjcoin with Safecoin.
Can you show me where in their model where they pay dividends or provide increased value on the application level?
You can read about it from the resources I posted above but TL;DR is that devs of apps get 10% of all new Safecoins and Farmers (they are basically miners) get 90% of all new Safecoins Join the Dark Side... |
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Easier to Build On
I think the key to Storj model is abstraction. Storj is designed in a modular way, so you can upgrade, swap out, and change features as needed. As you said making one UI would be a nightmare. Instead we provide an API for which the web interface rests on top. So if you want to change the base UI for a different use case or language go right ahead. Just make your changes to the HTML/CSS/etc. and you don't have to touch any of the core code.
In this case Storj make it easy to build "very specialized and easy to use" apps. If you want to develop a storage app would you rather use a C++ API or a nice REST API? In one case, you have to do a ton of work, in the other you are just doing a reskin to fit a different use case. After our tech is a little more solid I think I might write something like a 'Making a Storj app in 15 minutes' just to make the point.
Understood, but you also have to take into consideration that this is going to be a short lived advantage. And also even though Storj is going to be easier to develop on (at first) Maidsafe is going to have a lot more devs, fascinated with the tech, trying to build apps on top of it. MaidSafe essentially takes Internet and Bitcoin and upgrades them to Internet 2.0 (secure, decentralized, faster, private) and Bitcoin 2.0 ( anonymous, faster) and then mashes them together. Devs are going to be tripping over themselves to develop on this platform. That is, of course, if the MaidSafe project works as planned. Useful for the Average ConsumerSo if you picked a random person of the street, sat them down in front of a computer, and asked them to store a file on a decentralized network how do you think that would go. Would the average user (who probably knows nothing about Bitcoin) be able to get some specialized token? Not to mention they have to probably download and sync specialized software. Not so with Storj. The user goes to something like storj.io, pays for some bandwidth with their credit card(bitcoin or storjcoin), and begins uploading files. To use it they don't have to install any specialized software(although we will have that later for convenience), or go through the hoops of trying to acquire tokens. At the end of the day it just looks like we are offering a file storage service, so we can accept payments through more "traditional" methods. This opens up Storj to the entire market immediately, rather than just the Bitcoin market. So its 5 minutes, vs. Signing up for Coinbase, verifying your account, waiting 3-5 days, buying x token on an exchange, using the app. well this one falls flat on it's ass since MaidSafe is not going to charge for storage. Also good luck trying to get the average person of the street trying out your new decentralized storage system when they can just use dropbox. What I'm trying to say is those who win on bitcointalk and r/bitcoin will have a huge advantage Protection from Price Changes
These other tokens are traded on open markets. That means they have a fluctuating trade value. So 100 GB might cost $5 one day and $10 the next. People might not like this so much, but if your stuck using one storage network and one token your going to have to deal with it. So lets say the speculative price of an external service shoots up to an unreasonable amount(data based cryptocurrency bubble of 2014 perhaps), the Storj network can store the files on its own network. If after a few days the price goes back down to reasonable levels. Storj can then transfer the files to the external network. So the cost of data storage on Storj will always be the lowest, because Storj does not have to rely on its own data storage network. Falls on ass due to free storage also. First to Market
Our development process is completely different. We want to release features and applications early and often. We want to build toward a solution than promising the moon and delivering months later. Our web nodes are working now, we are just adding polish and features. remains to be seen (MaidSafe is pretty close to launch) Value in Storjcoin
Storjcoin provides more than just speculative value. Storjcoins are spent via tx fees to send network wide information. In our prototypes these will be returned to miners, but as the coin tech for it appears I might want to return these as dividends to the coin holders. So by holding Storjcoin you gain value from the physical storage and all the apps built off the entire network. So if someone pays in Bitcoin for their storage, Storjcoin will still have to be spent to send that information to the network. In that way Storjcoins will always build value either directly or indirectly.
So the value added: is easy to build on, immediately useful for average consumer, protection from price changes, first to market, and network wide rewards. There are a few more, but have I answered your question? I can move on to compute next, but I wanted to make sure I addressed the first part.
everything you said just replace Storjcoin with Safecoin. All in all good response and I'm looking forward to part two. |
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Nope, I'm definitely not using traditional business models. You're just building a strawman here.
What I'm trying to ask you is - why would somebody choose to use Safecoins and Storj coins when they can just use Safecoins?
Why would somebody use Ether and Storj coins for computation* instead of just ether?
Money is the ultimate network effect creator and if you don't have a specific value proposition I don't see why you would have a long lasting project here. If your value added is a front end for all those functions which includes the additional complexity of using one more token, then this doesn't compute at all...
Not to mention that having one front-end to include all these functions is going to be a nightmare of a UX.
i'm rather inclined to believe that there are going to be individual apps that are going to be very specialized and easy to use and they are going to be built on top of MaidSafe and Ethereum using their respective tokens.
I'm trying to invest in projects like Storj, that is why I'm doing this. So I would really love for you to help me understand your point of view here. What is the special value that Storj is going to add that MaidSafe and Ethereum aren't going to be able to have?
*which doesn't even sound right since ethereums value proposition is not computing - it's the turing complete language used to create contracts which can only be enforced on the Ethereum network and fueled by ether. Computing is going to be very expensive on Ethereum
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We have been taking to the MaidSafe guys for a while now, and following their development. It must be clear that we are not competitors, but rather partners. We plan to implement some of their storage tech as soon as its ready. Think of Storj as more front end decentralized applications(like Dropbox), and MaidSafe as a full protocol level.
I am definitely rooting for you to make it, but saying that you are not in direct competition with Maidsafe is just plain wrong. The fact that MaidSafe has a full protocol stack just means that they are a superior end product because they are going to offer near limitless storage for free. I agree that you guys are partners, David is a pretty cool guy with whom it's pretty easy to talk to and learn a thing or two from. But the fact is that your products are going to go head to head. I'm just wondering why don't you try to build Storj on top of MaidSafe? Actually a better question would be - what is the benefit of Storj over MaidSafe? (I really am interested) |
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Storj is similar to project SAFE(MaidSafe) in that it offers storage for crypto but Maidsafe has been 8 years in the making and is an incredible technology that is aiming at basically competing with the internet on a protocol level - they have built bittorent like functionality in the underlining protocols and made it completely decentralized. In short: Storj is competing against Dropbox Maidsafe is competing against www (and as a side-effect will offer free Storj  ) |
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if its so safe dont u think these would have sold already?
I thought you said the only way I can sell these cards is a min of 20% discount? Now bugger off... P.S I have 2 offers in PM. |
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To read the code you have to open the card in your account on Gyft.com, they do this so they can check if you opened or not exactly for refund purposes.
"That doesn't matter" AKA I don't know WTF I'm talking about
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Heres your escrow solution:
Find someone EXTREMELY trusted. Escrow receives BTC from the BTC seller and the buyer sends the amazon gift code DIRECTLY to the escrow. The escrow is given the login info for the BTC seller's amazon account where he wants the gift card(s) applied. The escrow then adds the gift card code(s) himself manually and if codes are good he releases the BTC to the buyer. Otherwise, if codes don't work, then the BTC is released back to the seller.
Same situation goes for moneypaks and have done this process a couple times using escrow for said moneypak trades. Good luck to you OP.
That's exactly what I have been saying in the PM's. Thanks. escrow wont matter with amazon its just like paypal to easy to charge back you're like lice. I use Gyft.com - you can transfer the cards to another account (cannot be reversed) i dont use gyft so how can they guarantee the person who bought the card doesnt charge it back? because they can tell if the card has been opened or not. |
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Heres your escrow solution:
Find someone EXTREMELY trusted. Escrow receives BTC from the BTC seller and the buyer sends the amazon gift code DIRECTLY to the escrow. The escrow is given the login info for the BTC seller's amazon account where he wants the gift card(s) applied. The escrow then adds the gift card code(s) himself manually and if codes are good he releases the BTC to the buyer. Otherwise, if codes don't work, then the BTC is released back to the seller.
Same situation goes for moneypaks and have done this process a couple times using escrow for said moneypak trades. Good luck to you OP.
That's exactly what I have been saying in the PM's. Thanks. escrow wont matter with amazon its just like paypal to easy to charge back you're like lice. I use Gyft.com - you can transfer the cards to another account (cannot be reversed) |
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Heres your escrow solution:
Find someone EXTREMELY trusted. Escrow receives BTC from the BTC seller and the buyer sends the amazon gift code DIRECTLY to the escrow. The escrow is given the login info for the BTC seller's amazon account where he wants the gift card(s) applied. The escrow then adds the gift card code(s) himself manually and if codes are good he releases the BTC to the buyer. Otherwise, if codes don't work, then the BTC is released back to the seller.
Same situation goes for moneypaks and have done this process a couple times using escrow for said moneypak trades. Good luck to you OP.
That's exactly what I have been saying in the PM's. Thanks. |
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It means my mistake, It's like that repentance you say in church when the priest goes all preachy, nevermind...
I didn't see the PM's you sent. I just sent you a response.
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you a bunch of constructive mofos are you
Well I quit, if somebody has a good idea feel free to shoot
I messaged you, you never responded. Mea culpa, mea culpa mea, maxima culpa |
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you a bunch of constructive mofos are you
Well I quit, if somebody has a good idea feel free to shoot
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How about you just send the funds from my card to your own - In that case I wouldn't be able to mess with the funds in any way
Of course escrow is released after the transaction is complete.
I think there is no fail point here, or am I wrong?
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I dont think you can escrow an amazon card easily, since you could literally send an empty random code, and say it was not empty when sent. The escrow would not know what happened,if that makes sense.
Hmh I guess you should have to spend the Gift card while your funds are still in escrow right? I wouldn't mind waiting a day or two... I understand that it still isn't bulletproof but I don't know what else to do |
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I'm looking to sell for 3 $200 Amazon gift cards for each $180 - (0,39 BTC)
If you want to buy all three then I would be willing to sell it for $520 - (1.128 BTC)
Do you have previous trades here? Sorry, No But I think we can escrow this pretty easily since those are both just data (BTC and Gift Card code) Gweedo would be a great pick for escrow since he is a senior member and is often used for high value transactions. If there is any way I can establish trust feel free to suggest |
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I'm looking to sell for 3 $200 Amazon gift cards for each $180 - (0,39 BTC)
If you want to buy all three then I would be willing to sell it for $520 - (1.128 BTC)
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Somebody wake up China, its getting late here and I want to be around for liftoff.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.htmlwakey wakey rise and shine! the chinese are just eating some chiwawa for breakfast and then they will read in the paper that the ban was fake and they will buy why do you think the ban is fake? |
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