[ANN] Storj - Decentralized Storage

[super3]

your mailing list sign up do not work. I signd up but I dont get a confermation mail

Send me a PM. Let's see what happened.

[super3]

Very interesting. There are basically two topics: storage and bandwidth. Sounds like this here uses some kind of "proof of storage" but would you mind to talk a bit about the bandwidth part? Is a node with 56 KBit/s and 1 TB storage treated equal as a note with a 10 MBit/s upload and 1 TB storage?

Our development process is very different from most. We want to provide working solutions one by one than promising you the moon, and taking 3 years to deliver. In our first development run, you can run web nodes that sell bandwidth. These nodes sell bandwidth, and shuttle files around the network.

Lets say:
Node A: Is a node with 56 KBit/s and 1 TB storage
Node B: 10 MBit/s upload and 1 TB storage

Node A will be treated as a "passive" node, and Node B will be treated as an "active" node.

People will want to use Node B because of the faster speed. On the other hand, Node A, has 1 TB of unused storage. So people will upload files to Node B, and Node B will charge for bandwidth and storage. Node B has to maintain file redundancy in case it goes down, so it will buy storage space from Node A, and verify periodically through hashing that Node A is storing the correct data. Node B can also rely on other external services, or another decentralized network such as MaidSafe to physically store the files.

Node's B motive is to approach 100% saturation of its resources. So using Dropbox prices and 3x redundancy, Node B could generate about ~$150 a month. About half of this is from selling its hard drive, the other half is from reserving a small cache space and then shuttling uploaded files to other nodes and networks.

Node A would earn substantially less. It would serve as a very poor shuttle for data. Furthermore because of the low bandwidth, it would be very hard to achieve full saturation of the hard drive.

But wait, we still have a use for Node A. If we could pre-load Node A will files. Let's say tons of small < 100kb files that are slated for long term storage (lets say these are used on a backup application and probably won't really be accessed much at all). Therefore Node A would only have to pass hash verifications, and the occasional file transfer. It can also approach full saturation.

[RGBKey]

Very interesting. There are basically two topics: storage and bandwidth. Sounds like this here uses some kind of "proof of storage" but would you mind to talk a bit about the bandwidth part? Is a node with 56 KBit/s and 1 TB storage treated equal as a note with a 10 MBit/s upload and 1 TB storage?

Our development process is very different from most. We want to provide working solutions one by one than promising you the moon, and taking 3 years to deliver. In our first development run, you can run web nodes that sell bandwidth. These nodes sell bandwidth, and shuttle files around the network.

Lets say:
Node A: Is a node with 56 KBit/s and 1 TB storage
Node B: 10 MBit/s upload and 1 TB storage

Node A will be treated as a "passive" node, and Node B will be treated as an "active" node.

People will want to use Node B because of the faster speed. On the other hand, Node A, has 1 TB of unused storage. So people will upload files to Node B, and Node B will charge for bandwidth and storage. Node B has to maintain file redundancy in case it goes down, so it will buy storage space from Node A, and verify periodically through hashing that Node A is storing the correct data. Node B can also rely on other external services, or another decentralized network such as MaidSafe to physically store the files.

Node's B motive is to approach 100% saturation of its resources. So using Dropbox prices and 3x redundancy, Node B could generate about ~$150 a month. About half of this is from selling its hard drive, the other half is from reserving a small cache space and then shuttling uploaded files to other nodes and networks.

Node A would earn substantially less. It would serve as a very poor shuttle for data. Furthermore because of the low bandwidth, it would be very hard to achieve full saturation of the hard drive.

But wait, we still have a use for Node A. If we could pre-load Node A will files. Let's say tons of small < 100kb files that are slated for long term storage (lets say these are used on a backup application and probably won't really be accessed much at all). Therefore Node A would only have to pass hash verifications, and the occasional file transfer. It can also approach full saturation.

Node A seems a bit more my case because being a Time Warner Cable-ian, I have 16 Megabit down and 1 Megabit up. Storing things is no problem for me. Sending them back, maybe.

[super3]

Then you could just stock up on harddrives, and make a decent amount. I was just thinking, the guy or gal with Google Fiber is going to be able to retire.

[dexX7]

Thanks for the reply. So the user actually chooses where his files are hosted or the amount of bandwidth? And to provide a high probability of availability there are several copies of a file in the cloud and nodes constantly confirm the availability and initiate replication in the case a mirror goes down?

I'm really looking forward to this project and wish you all the best!

[super3]

Thanks for the reply. So the user actually chooses where his files are hosted or the amount of bandwidth? And to provide a high probability of availability there are several copies of a file in the cloud and nodes constantly confirm the availability and initiate replication in the case a mirror goes down?

I'm really looking forward to this project and wish you all the best!

Chooses is such a relative term. The application will automate those choices through software.
Application A will allow users to sync files just, like Dropbox, and the user doesn't have to worry about that techno stuff.
Application B, will give users an interface that allows them to set destination and redundancy.
Application C, will give users a raw API to query.
etc, etc.

[MsCollec]

I just signed up for early invite and updates. Goodluck on your project!

[super3]

I just signed up for early invite and updates. Goodluck on your project!

Thanks!

[GreekBitcoin]

The whole idea is very good  and i am waiting for months for something like that! Hope it comes out fast!

Already subscribed

A question btw, i wonder if people with limited HDD  could actually help and maybe gain. Personally i have many VMs but with limited space....

[prophetx]

website looks so nice folks great job, keep up the good work

[super3]

The whole idea is very good  and i am waiting for months for something like that! Hope it comes out fast!

Already subscribed

A question btw, i wonder if people with limited HDD  could actually help and maybe gain. Personally i have many VMs but with limited space....

Sure. You could also just rent cloud servers and run the software.

[bitwhizz]

Is Storj similar to Safe coin ?

http://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwgeeks/article/MaidSafe-Prepares-for-Safecoin-Crowd-Sale-to-Facilitate-Decentralized-Internet-20140408#.U0RUaELBHHg

[Bebopzzz]

Is Storj similar to Safe coin ?

http://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwgeeks/article/MaidSafe-Prepares-for-Safecoin-Crowd-Sale-to-Facilitate-Decentralized-Internet-20140408#.U0RUaELBHHg

Storj is similar to project SAFE(MaidSafe) in that it offers storage for crypto but Maidsafe has been 8 years in the making and is an incredible technology that is aiming at basically competing with the internet on a protocol level - they have built bittorent like functionality in the underlining protocols and made it completely decentralized.

In short:

Storj is competing against Dropbox

Maidsafe is competing against www (and as a side-effect will offer free Storj   )

[super3]

We have been taking to the MaidSafe guys for a while now, and following their development. It must be clear that we are not competitors, but rather partners. We plan to implement some of their storage tech as soon as its ready. Think of Storj as more front end decentralized applications(like Dropbox), and MaidSafe as a full protocol level.

[Bebopzzz]

We have been taking to the MaidSafe guys for a while now, and following their development. It must be clear that we are not competitors, but rather partners. We plan to implement some of their storage tech as soon as its ready. Think of Storj as more front end decentralized applications(like Dropbox), and MaidSafe as a full protocol level.

I am definitely rooting for you to make it, but saying that you are not in direct competition with Maidsafe is just plain wrong. The fact that MaidSafe has a full protocol stack just means that they are a superior end product because they are going to offer near limitless storage for free. 

I agree that you guys are partners, David is a pretty cool guy with whom it's pretty easy to talk to and learn a thing or two from. But the fact is that your products are going to go head to head.

I'm just wondering why don't you try to build Storj on top of MaidSafe?

Actually a better question would be - what is the benefit of Storj over MaidSafe? (I really am interested)

[awrelll]

This is such a great project, i first heard about it when Stephan Tual was talking about it at Google campus in London. I am courious if this project uses ethereum technology. Big ups!

[super3]

Again that is because you are using the traditional business models. With tokens and open source software, competition becomes very blurry. Which products?
We are making solid progress on our open source web software. Functions similarly to a web based version of Dropbox. As soon as MaidSafe is ready we will offer integration with our web software. Will will probably be the first solid MaidSafe consumer facing application.

No need. We intend to use MaidSafe as a data source. So a user uploads a file, and we keep track of it on our network. The file(or parts of the file) may be stored on the MaidSafe network as well, as long as it is a cheap and available data source. The relationship is symbiotic. We bring users to the party, and MaidSafe brings some of their storage. We will have our own data storage methods, which may be helpful for certain other situations.

So it looks some think like this:

• Decentralized Dropbox - Storj + Maidsafe
• Decentralized Backup - Storj + Maidsafe
• Decentralized Compute - Storj + Ethereum
• Decentralized CDN - Storj

So we don't build Storj on top of Maidsafe. We build Storj in conjunction with Maidsafe. This allows us to experiment with other storage methods, and other protocols as well. In this way we reap all of the benefits of MaidSafe, but we are in no way dependent on it. 

Abstracts the technical complexities for you, and provides nice APIs and nice frontend applications for you to use. You could specify through config to use only MaidSafe or Ethereum for data storage, in that case we would just be a front end application. You could specify to use our data sources, in that case we would more function as a full stack network. But the best is to mix and match.

Blend together the decentralized data based protocols, and you get Storj. We are not just a singular app, but rather a market for data that can easily changed based on the user preferences and type of application. 

[Bebopzzz]

Nope, I'm definitely not using traditional business models. You're just building a strawman here.

What I'm trying to ask you is - why would somebody choose to use Safecoins and Storj coins when they can just use Safecoins?
Why would somebody use Ether and Storj coins for computation* instead of just ether?

Money is the ultimate network effect creator and if you don't have a specific value proposition I don't see why you would have a long lasting project here. If your value added is a front end for all those functions which includes the additional complexity of using one more token, then this doesn't compute at all...
Not to mention that having one front-end to include all these functions is going to be a nightmare of a UX.
i'm rather inclined to believe that there are going to be individual apps that are going to be very specialized and easy to use and they are going to be built on top of MaidSafe and Ethereum using their respective tokens.

I'm trying to invest in projects like Storj, that is why I'm doing this. So I would really love for you to help me understand your point of view here. What is the special value that Storj is going to add that MaidSafe and Ethereum aren't going to be able to have?



*which doesn't even sound right since ethereums value proposition is not computing - it's the turing complete language used to create contracts which can only be enforced on the Ethereum network and fueled by ether. Computing is going to be very expensive on Ethereum

[super3]

Nope, I'm definitely not using traditional business models. You're just building a strawman here.

What I'm trying to ask you is - why would somebody choose to use Safecoins and Storj coins when they can just use Safecoins?
Why would somebody use Ether and Storj coins for computation* instead of just ether?

Money is the ultimate network effect creator and if you don't have a specific value proposition I don't see why you would have a long lasting project here. If your value added is a front end for all those functions which includes the additional complexity of using one more token, then this doesn't compute at all...
Not to mention that having one front-end to include all these functions is going to be a nightmare of a UX.
i'm rather inclined to believe that there are going to be individual apps that are going to be very specialized and easy to use and they are going to be built on top of MaidSafe and Ethereum using their respective tokens.

I'm trying to invest in projects like Storj, that is why I'm doing this. So I would really love for you to help me understand your point of view here. What is the special value that Storj is going to add that MaidSafe and Ethereum aren't going to be able to have?



*which doesn't even sound right since ethereums value proposition is not computing - it's the turing complete language used to create contracts which can only be enforced on the Ethereum network and fueled by ether. Computing is going to be very expensive on Ethereum

Easier to Build On
I think the key to Storj model is abstraction. Storj is designed in a modular way, so you can upgrade, swap out, and change features as needed. As you said making one UI would be a nightmare. Instead we provide an API for which the web interface rests on top. So if you want to change the base UI for a different use case or language go right ahead. Just make your changes to the HTML/CSS/etc. and you don't have to touch any of the core code.

In this case Storj make it easy to build "very specialized and easy to use" apps. If you want to develop a storage app would you rather use a C++ API or a nice REST API? In one case, you have to do a ton of work, in the other you are just doing a reskin to fit a different use case. After our tech is a little more solid I think I might write something like a 'Making a Storj app in 15 minutes' just to make the point.

Useful for the Average Consumer
So if you picked a random person of the street, sat them down in front of a computer, and asked them to store a file on a decentralized network how do you think that would go. Would the average user (who probably knows nothing about Bitcoin) be able to get some specialized token? Not to mention they have to probably download and sync specialized software.

Not so with Storj. The user goes to something like storj.io, pays for some bandwidth with their credit card(bitcoin or storjcoin), and begins uploading files. To use it they don't have to install any specialized software(although we will have that later for convenience), or go through the hoops of trying to acquire tokens. At the end of the day it just looks like we are offering a file storage service, so we can accept payments through more "traditional" methods. This opens up Storj to the entire market immediately, rather than just the Bitcoin market.

So its 5 minutes, vs. Signing up for Coinbase, verifying your account, waiting 3-5 days, buying x token on an exchange, using the app.

Protection from Price Changes
These other tokens are traded on open markets. That means they have a fluctuating trade value. So 100 GB might cost $5 one day and $10 the next. People might not like this so much, but if your stuck using one storage network and one token your going to have to deal with it. So lets say the speculative price of an external service shoots up to an unreasonable amount(data based cryptocurrency bubble of 2014 perhaps), the Storj network can store the files on its own network. If after a few days the price goes back down to reasonable levels. Storj can then transfer the files to the external network. So the cost of data storage on Storj will always be the lowest, because Storj does not have to rely on its own data storage network.

First to Market
Our development process is completely different. We want to release features and applications early and often. We want to build toward a solution than promising the moon and delivering months later. Our web nodes are working now, we are just adding polish and features.

Value in Storjcoin
Storjcoin provides more than just speculative value. Storjcoins are spent via tx fees to send network wide information. In our prototypes these will be returned to miners, but as the coin tech for it appears I might want to return these as dividends to the coin holders. So by holding Storjcoin you gain value from the physical storage and all the apps built off the entire network. So if someone pays in Bitcoin for their storage, Storjcoin will still have to be spent to send that information to the network. In that way Storjcoins will always build value either directly or indirectly.

So the value added: is easy to build on, immediately useful for average consumer, protection from price changes, first to market, and network wide rewards. There are a few more, but have I answered your question? I can move on to compute next, but I wanted to make sure I addressed the first part.

[Bebopzzz]

Easier to Build On
I think the key to Storj model is abstraction. Storj is designed in a modular way, so you can upgrade, swap out, and change features as needed. As you said making one UI would be a nightmare. Instead we provide an API for which the web interface rests on top. So if you want to change the base UI for a different use case or language go right ahead. Just make your changes to the HTML/CSS/etc. and you don't have to touch any of the core code.

In this case Storj make it easy to build "very specialized and easy to use" apps. If you want to develop a storage app would you rather use a C++ API or a nice REST API? In one case, you have to do a ton of work, in the other you are just doing a reskin to fit a different use case. After our tech is a little more solid I think I might write something like a 'Making a Storj app in 15 minutes' just to make the point.

Understood, but you also have to take into consideration that this is going to be a short lived advantage. And also even though Storj is going to be easier to develop on (at first) Maidsafe is going to have a lot more devs, fascinated with the tech, trying to build apps on top of it.

MaidSafe essentially takes Internet and Bitcoin and upgrades them to Internet 2.0 (secure, decentralized, faster, private) and Bitcoin 2.0 ( anonymous, faster)  and then mashes them together. Devs are going to be tripping over themselves to develop on this platform. That is, of course, if the MaidSafe project works as planned.

Useful for the Average Consumer
So if you picked a random person of the street, sat them down in front of a computer, and asked them to store a file on a decentralized network how do you think that would go. Would the average user (who probably knows nothing about Bitcoin) be able to get some specialized token? Not to mention they have to probably download and sync specialized software.

Not so with Storj. The user goes to something like storj.io, pays for some bandwidth with their credit card(bitcoin or storjcoin), and begins uploading files. To use it they don't have to install any specialized software(although we will have that later for convenience), or go through the hoops of trying to acquire tokens. At the end of the day it just looks like we are offering a file storage service, so we can accept payments through more "traditional" methods. This opens up Storj to the entire market immediately, rather than just the Bitcoin market.

So its 5 minutes, vs. Signing up for Coinbase, verifying your account, waiting 3-5 days, buying x token on an exchange, using the app.

well this one falls flat on it's ass since MaidSafe is not going to charge for storage.

Also good luck trying to get the average person of the street trying out your new decentralized storage system when they can just use dropbox. What I'm trying to say is those who win on bitcointalk and r/bitcoin will have a huge advantage
 

Protection from Price Changes
These other tokens are traded on open markets. That means they have a fluctuating trade value. So 100 GB might cost $5 one day and $10 the next. People might not like this so much, but if your stuck using one storage network and one token your going to have to deal with it. So lets say the speculative price of an external service shoots up to an unreasonable amount(data based cryptocurrency bubble of 2014 perhaps), the Storj network can store the files on its own network. If after a few days the price goes back down to reasonable levels. Storj can then transfer the files to the external network. So the cost of data storage on Storj will always be the lowest, because Storj does not have to rely on its own data storage network.

Falls on ass due to free storage also.

First to Market
Our development process is completely different. We want to release features and applications early and often. We want to build toward a solution than promising the moon and delivering months later. Our web nodes are working now, we are just adding polish and features.

remains to be seen (MaidSafe is pretty close to launch)

Value in Storjcoin
Storjcoin provides more than just speculative value. Storjcoins are spent via tx fees to send network wide information. In our prototypes these will be returned to miners, but as the coin tech for it appears I might want to return these as dividends to the coin holders. So by holding Storjcoin you gain value from the physical storage and all the apps built off the entire network. So if someone pays in Bitcoin for their storage, Storjcoin will still have to be spent to send that information to the network. In that way Storjcoins will always build value either directly or indirectly.

So the value added: is easy to build on, immediately useful for average consumer, protection from price changes, first to market, and network wide rewards. There are a few more, but have I answered your question? I can move on to compute next, but I wanted to make sure I addressed the first part.

everything you said just replace Storjcoin with Safecoin.


All in all good response and I'm looking forward to part two.