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Edit: Now if we develop the story, and if we have developer, we could make lets say upgraded virtual machine, user to decide how much power of virtual miner to be used, of course in limited range, for instance. At the moment unfortunately there is no one to upgrade even the client
If we had a developer available the solution to what described @terracoinhelpstheworld above might be to modify PoB in order to enable people withdrawing the amount they invested anytime, so the SLM profits would become in line with masternoding without the hassle of working on nodes, much more convenient than PoS and much more convenient than PoW without the hassle of mining (I'd call it Proof-of-Investment solution). Another possible solution would be to enable the possibility to change the ownership of the burned coins, thus creating a market of SLM virtual farms. And the third solution that went me in mind reading the above would be to dramatically increase the PoB rewards let say 10 times but it the worse solution because it would create a heavy pressure on the price of SLM and would not solve things as sooner or later the difficulty would increase so the profits would drop anyway. But what is the exact issue with developers? We don't have developers able to make the changes/upgrades needed or we do have them, but they don't have time available because they need to dedicate it to their daily work (or other projects)? No, we dont have it. We had and have contributors. SLM is based on the Peercoin, and we would need to update it on the new core 0.8.3 Does it mean that we need to find a developer? Yes. that is correct That's a good news :-) I mean, I love challenges. And by other hand it seems like we've elaborated the first step of our possible road map (there are many currencies out there that don't have a road map and the investors usually don't like it as it may mean that the team that is working on the coin, decentralised or centralised, doesn't know where to go). What are the requirements for the developer that we'd need? What should he/she be familiar with? Maybe C++ developer would be needed in this case? |
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Edit: Now if we develop the story, and if we have developer, we could make lets say upgraded virtual machine, user to decide how much power of virtual miner to be used, of course in limited range, for instance. At the moment unfortunately there is no one to upgrade even the client
If we had a developer available the solution to what described @terracoinhelpstheworld above might be to modify PoB in order to enable people withdrawing the amount they invested anytime, so the SLM profits would become in line with masternoding without the hassle of working on nodes, much more convenient than PoS and much more convenient than PoW without the hassle of mining (I'd call it Proof-of-Investment solution). Another possible solution would be to enable the possibility to change the ownership of the burned coins, thus creating a market of SLM virtual farms. And the third solution that went me in mind reading the above would be to dramatically increase the PoB rewards let say 10 times but it the worse solution because it would create a heavy pressure on the price of SLM and would not solve things as sooner or later the difficulty would increase so the profits would drop anyway. But what is the exact issue with developers? We don't have developers able to make the changes/upgrades needed or we do have them, but they don't have time available because they need to dedicate it to their daily work (or other projects)? |
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I'd also like to try an estimate of profitability of BTC PoW mining compared to SLM PoB, I'm not an expert at all in BTC mining so please correct me where I'm wrong. Let's assume that someone would like to invest into BTC mining. He'd probably buy Antminer S17 Pro for something around 5500$. Inputing 53 TH/s as hashrate and 2520W of power consumption here we can see that his yearly profit would be 2052.87$. So he'd need 2 years 8 months just to recover his investment. Comparing the price of the new Antminer S9 in 2017 and the price of the same used appliance now we can see the price has dropped 6 times. So after 2 years of mining with Antminer S17 Pro (we are assuming that all the conditions will stay the same) the investor may have 4104$ of profit + 916$ of the equipment value left. While at the end of the 3rd year he'd have 6156$ of profit + 325$ of equipment value left. So he'd have 117% of the initial investment. The same result of SLM's PoB. And from that moment on SLM's PoB would surpass the BTC mining in profitability. But probably BTC is not the most profitable cryptocurrency to mine. I think that you forgot one thing. if you invest in virtual mining, after two years you will still have lets say 60 % of your virtual machine value and still to be profitable TBH in the above calculations we'd have 100% of initial "burned" capital still available, so yes in case of PoW the miner would not have any usable equipment left, while the PoB miner would go potentially forever making profits, but the issue is that 3-4 years to surpass the profitability of the other coins are too much for the investor into crypto, because people in the cryptoworld is generally thinking about multiplying their capitals in shortest period of time possible and also because in 3-4 years the technology may make a big leap forward making obsolete any previous approach. That's why I'm saying PoB is more convenient than BTC PoW (and probably many other kind of PoW), just any PoS and some Masternoding, but it's too risky compared to the profits available. |
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I'd also like to try an estimate of profitability of BTC PoW mining compared to SLM PoB, I'm not an expert at all in BTC mining so please correct me where I'm wrong. Let's assume that someone would like to invest into BTC mining. He'd probably buy Antminer S17 Pro for something around 5500$. Inputing 53 TH/s as hashrate and 2520W of power consumption here we can see that his yearly profit would be 2052.87$. So he'd need 2 years 8 months just to recover his investment. Comparing the price of the new Antminer S9 in 2017 and the price of the same used appliance now we can see the price has dropped 6 times. So after 2 years of mining with Antminer S17 Pro (we are assuming that all the conditions will stay the same) the investor may have 4104$ of profit + 916$ of the equipment value left. While at the end of the 3rd year he'd have 6156$ of profit + 325$ of equipment value left. So he'd have 117% of the initial investment. The same result of SLM's PoB. And from that moment on SLM's PoB would surpass the BTC mining in profitability. But probably BTC is not the most profitable cryptocurrency to mine. |
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However I think the data provided by @gavrilo77 is very interesting. Practically he made 133% of the initial capital in 833 days and he has still 55% of initial capital left. So he was making 58%/y minting with PoB, while coins decayed were 19%/y. In other words his profits were 58%/y and his losses were 19%/y. So his net profits are 39%/y. And it's not the maximum profit possible, as he hasn't kept his computer always on.
When someone invests into the real estate which he rents then, he may make let say 10%/y which seems much less than the above 39%/y, but he is able to sell his property in whatever moment, maybe making some profit as well. When someone buys a business his profits may vary, but he can sell his business as well. When someone invests into mining he needs to buy equipment and maybe his profits are less than 39%/y, but he is able to sell his equipment anytime. When someone is masternoding he can sell his collateral anytime and the same with Pos. With PoB the capital invested is lost forever. So in order to compare Masternoding with PoB, for instance, we can say that in case of PoB the collateral is recovered in 2-3 years if we consider the 58% or 39% mentioned above and then one begins making profits, the same with PoS and PoW compared with PoB. But in the mean time the quantity of PoB miners can increase and also the price of SLM can change, so because 2-3 years is an eternity in the cryptoworld the risks are very high compared to PoW, PoS and Masternoding and the profits are not that high to justify that high risks. Your statements are very correct but again IF. Now imagine that all mined coins are burned or most, PoB would take over PoW and PoS. PoB Rewards would come much often. For mining you can invest in equipment, but you have to pay electricity, maybe after sometime would be failure of the equipment and you never get back your investment and depend of the price as well. With PoB is investing in equipment "worry free". PoS interest is usually small. Personal, i would rather burn huge amount of SLM and collect the rewards. For instance i am collecting with this diff around 600 SLM per day, hypothetically if all conditions are the same including BTC price, i should get a year 175 $, and that i did not move. Now again IF, if you burn 5mil SLM, you can calculate. I dont want to say you are not right but yes everything is only IF I think I understand well your point. And I'm very interested SLM to become a success. That's why I think we need to see things from the point of view of an investor, if we want to advertise SLM correctly. So let's try to discern the IFs from the facts. If we compare the profitability of SLM with the profitability of DASH we can see, that DASH's ROI is 6.34%/y right now. While basing ourselves on @johnwhitestar's calculations and the data you kindly provided, we have agreed that the SLM's ROI is 39%/y. But the DASH's ROI and the SLM's ROI here are different. Because in DASH you can withdraw your capital anytime while in SLM you can't so you need 2-3 years to recover the capital invested. So if in the first year the DASH's investor has 100% of capital available + 6.34% of profit, in the same year the SLM's investor has only 39% in his hands. In the second year the DASH's investor has still 100% of his capital in his hands + 12.68% of profit (for the first and the second year), while the SLM investor has 78% available. In the third year the DAHS's investor has 100% of capital + 19.02% of profit, while the SLM investor has 117% of profit. And only on the fourth year the SLM investor would surpass the DASH's investor making 156% of profit, while the DASH's investor would have available 100% of capital + 25.36% of profit. The ROI of DASH is one of the lowest one among the other masternode's currencies and still we'd need an investor ready to invest into SLM for a very long period of time, in order his investment to be more profitable that the same investment into DASH. The same situation with PoS. Let's compare the profitability of SLM and PPC. In the first year the PPC investor has 100% of capital + 1% of profit, while the SLM investor has 39% of profit. In the second year the PPC investor has 100% of capital +2% of profit, while the SLM investor has 78% of profit. And only during the third year the SLM investor surpasses the PPC investor, as at the end of that year the SLM investor would have 117% of profit, while the PPC investor would have only 100% of capital + 3% of profit. Of course all the above are estimates, assuming that nothing has changed in the mean time, but we doing so for the sake of clarity because we have a moral obligation to advertise SLM correctly and also because if we don't do so the investors won't invest they'll just laugh at us. |
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However I think the data provided by @gavrilo77 is very interesting. Practically he made 133% of the initial capital in 833 days and he has still 55% of initial capital left. So he was making 58%/y minting with PoB, while coins decayed were 19%/y. In other words his profits were 58%/y and his losses were 19%/y. So his net profits are 39%/y. And it's not the maximum profit possible, as he hasn't kept his computer always on.
When someone invests into the real estate which he rents then, he may make let say 10%/y which seems much less than the above 39%/y, but he is able to sell his property in whatever moment, maybe making some profit as well. When someone buys a business his profits may vary, but he can sell his business as well. When someone invests into mining he needs to buy equipment and maybe his profits are less than 39%/y, but he is able to sell his equipment anytime. When someone is masternoding he can sell his collateral anytime and the same with Pos. With PoB the capital invested is lost forever. So in order to compare Masternoding with PoB, for instance, we can say that in case of PoB the collateral is recovered in 2-3 years if we consider the 58% or 39% mentioned above and then one begins making profits, the same with PoS and PoW compared with PoB. But in the mean time the quantity of PoB miners can increase and also the price of SLM can change, so because 2-3 years is an eternity in the cryptoworld the risks are very high compared to PoW, PoS and Masternoding and the profits are not that high to justify that high risks. |
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Maybe you can just remain generic on the signature, something like just "high ROI"?
If you consider the average of the quantities mentioned by @casper77 we are speaking about 65 coins/day which is 237%/y so, even if we hypothesise the decay around 100%/y, the ROI, i.e. the difference between the coin produced and decayed, is still very high, 137%. This is comparable to the masternode's ROI and is much higher than BTC mining ROI if expressed in BTC, not to mention the % you can receive putting your fiat in bank.
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i have 10K POB effective burnt coins and i have from 30 to 100 coins per day
i dont know from what that difference depends of
It probably depends on a causality sequence used in PoB algorithm but if you consider let say one month or one year span you'll probably see the stable average. Should it be just 30 SLM/day your annual ROI would be 109% which is huge compared to masternode's ROI to not to speak about Bitcoin mining. But if the average is for instance 65 SLM/day your ROI is just fabulous. And the minimum investment is quite small, 10K is just 8$ considering the market prices. I think it's an interesting basis to begin advertising SLM in terms of profits. yes, but should remember that "effective burnt coins" decreases over time and you must regularly burn if you want to always have 10K something like asic's depreciation of equipment So the actual ROI should be the difference between produced coins and decayed ones. |
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I was thinking about how to make the concept of Proof of Burn immediately understandable and then to modify our signature accordingly.
What if we define Proof of Burn as "Decentralized mining without equipment"?
I always liked the analogy of "virtual mining". If you burn a coin, you "buy" a "virtual mining rig" which has the power to find blocks - hashrate is analogous to the amount of coins burned (minus decay rate). This analogy was used already by the PoB inventor, Iain Stewart. See also: http://slimco.in/proof-of-burn-eli5/I think "virtual mining" is the best and the most efficient way to explain the PoB, but we probably need to use the signatures as the most basic tool of SLM's advertising. I'm not an advertising expert, but I studied something and to make the advertising work for us it has to have the following 3 elements in the following order: - It has to mention the issue the reader has; - It has to show that what we are advertising, PoB or SLM in this case, actually solves that issue; - It has to contain a call to action, possibly with a sense of urgency, for instance something like "if all the conditions stay equal you'll get 100% ROI in 3 month with 100,000 SLM using PoB". And of course all above has to be as concise as possible. I'm available to go on with this brainstorming and if someone is interested we can create a small contest with the prize in SLMs for the best solution. Considering the newcomers in the cryptoworld are looking for profit, maybe it would just worth mentioning an interesting ROI with PoB, without giving any explanation about PoB itself? Is there any kind of estimate to see the ROI for PoB? |
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I was thinking about how to make the concept of Proof of Burn immediately understandable and then to modify our signature accordingly.
What if we define Proof of Burn as "Decentralized mining without equipment"?
How is your definition different from PoS? |
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