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1  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Bryan Micon's Butterfly Labs Scammer Investigation including Josh Zerlan on: January 06, 2014, 07:24:10 PM
The only people you find complaining on Bitcointalk for the most part are competitors or known trolls like Entropy, Bicknellski, etc...

To answer your question though: No there is nothing valid they bring to the table that qualifies as a scam. Just angry butt hurt trolls who can't stand the fact that all their idiotic "predictions" and false claims turned out to be lies and they are exposed for what they are. So they try to flood the threads and forum with more junk in hopes that people will forget.

Respectfully, you've been just as guilty of that. It's been a very eye opening thread, to say the least.

I have no dog in this fight, just wish there could be some sort of dialogue..."hey, this is what you've done wrong, and here is the evidence" and counters of "We haven't been perfect, and here's how we're working to improve."

Name calling doesn't restore BTC or help reputations.
2  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: WHAT! :( Butterfly Lads won't deliver the Monarch Till March or April:( on: January 06, 2014, 05:36:52 PM
Why don't people just get refunds if they don't want to wait?
3  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: January 06, 2014, 04:38:53 PM
Has anyone put together a list of wallet addresses HF used?

The only one I've seen is:

https://blockchain.info/address/1KFrqkEGy6Yq7X4SYCbYoj8HEwfbWVUDJ9
4  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Bryan Micon's Butterfly Labs Scammer Investigation including Josh Zerlan on: January 06, 2014, 04:24:05 PM
Well, I just read through all 27 pages of this disaster of a thread.

Can someone take the time to distill exactly what the "scam" is?

I get that they delayed products a long time and had questionable refund practices during the delay, but is that it? Is there something wrong with the products themselves?

If you actually did read the thread you would know.

Apologies, I meant documented issues/problems. Around page 20, the thread turned into name calling and denials.

Something like this: http://hashfast.org/Timeline

5  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Bryan Micon's Butterfly Labs Scammer Investigation including Josh Zerlan on: January 06, 2014, 04:15:23 PM
Well, I just read through all 27 pages of this disaster of a thread.

Can someone take the time to distill exactly what the "scam" is?

I get that they delayed products a long time and had questionable refund practices during the delay, but is that it? Is there something wrong with the products themselves?
6  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: January 05, 2014, 05:44:07 PM
I keep seeing people say HashFast is investor backed. Where is that information coming from?
7  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: public record, case 13LA09619 won against BFL on: January 04, 2014, 05:23:47 PM
I'm saying that generally speaking, a default judgment, while a victory for the plaintiff in that specific case, isn't precedent for future cases. In other words, if Jim sues Bob for breach of contract, and Bob doesn't show up, Jim will get a default judgment and "win." If Gary then decides to sue Bob for breach of contract and Bob shows up, Gary can't wave around Jim's default judgment and say "Look! He already lost before so he should lose again!"

.. I just do my best to educate people on some of the less obvious points of the legal system.

Anything contained in the above post should NOT be taken to constitute the establishment of an Attorney-Client relationship. Anything in the above post should NOT be taken as legal advice, either generally, or for your specific situation. Anything contained in the above post should NOT be taken to indicate my opinion on any legal strategy or approach, or the viability of any legal claims.

So which is it?

I'd be more interested to hear your not-an-opinion-or-on the subject that BFL might have a shot at reopening this case.  On one hand, the address on their business license (official mailing address) is where you would think to send registered mail for service.  However, the place does have a website with an address on it.  So there's the common sense thing too...  what do the courts consider reasonable effort to contact in the legal world these days with email, internet, and google?

I don't believe there's conflict in what I said and what my sig says. I apologize if my posts give any other impression.

I am simply explaining that while a default judgment is valid and enforceable (though it may be challenged on specific grounds), it generally does not prevent a defendant from showing up in a subsequent lawsuit brought by a different party and contesting the suit.

In other words, a plaintiff winning a default judgment says very little about another potential plaintiff's chance of winning if defendant shows up in that subsequent plaintiff's case.

YMMV, as always.
8  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: January 04, 2014, 04:06:09 AM
The mood tells me that one "single" lawyer for HashFast won't be enough. Shall we see how many are incoming...
The sad part is all the lawyers are paid for with your money.   Sad  
It sucks to say this but realistically the smart thing to do is to rush over there and agree to whatever just to get some sort of money back on the spot.  Otherwise you are likely to get nothing or less then nothing since the fees you'll to your lawyers will be coming out of your pocket also.  You know the old joke.  When a bear is chasing two people you don't need to run faster then the bear just faster then the other guy.  Good luck to all.

I would personally view this advice with extreme skepticism.

A hypothetical case like this could presumably be taken on contingency, and/or attorneys fees may be separate from any recovery.

 Of course, there's always a chance of a company disappearing into the night or going bankrupt.

But see my sig.
Spoken like an attorney.  Cheesy  Yes customers don't go quickly and see if you can wrangle even a little bit of your money payable on the spot from a company that is quickly looking like it will simply close up shop but come pay me some fees so that I may sue them for you.  Really?  What good attorney in their right mind would take a case on contingency that involves a company with no assets and attempt bitcoin recovery - an asset that even if it existed in the company's possession is virtually impossible to lien or to effectively recover by force.  Sure one can do it on principle but still I would personally view this advice with extreme skepticism.  
This is almost like a prisoners dilemma.  HF likely is waiting to see how many people will sign that refund form in order to see how much they have to pay out in refunds and if they can continue to stay in business BFL style.  Of course if very few people opt for the refund and instead sue then they will likely enter bankruptcy protection since it's pretty clear the claims of people wanting full BTC refunds would outweigh everything.  So for investomers it's lose lose.  Don't sign the form and you will likely get nothing or sign the form and get some money but you might be in a race with everyone else trying to get at least something from HF as well.

There are plenty of reasons a risky case might be taken on contingency. This is particularly true where, as here, actual costs would presumably be low (no need for experts, no need for lengthy discovery). Biggest cost would be attorney time.

I'm not advising anyone one way or the other, but I'm skeptical of any advice suggesting people forego potential legal rights at the suggestion of a forum poster and without consulting a lawyer.

Anything more specific and I worry about coming too close to ethical lines, so I will refrain and stick with generalities.
9  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: January 04, 2014, 02:59:48 AM
The mood tells me that one "single" lawyer for HashFast won't be enough. Shall we see how many are incoming...
The sad part is all the lawyers are paid for with your money.   Sad  
It sucks to say this but realistically the smart thing to do is to rush over there and agree to whatever just to get some sort of money back on the spot.  Otherwise you are likely to get nothing or less then nothing since the fees you'll to your lawyers will be coming out of your pocket also.  You know the old joke.  When a bear is chasing two people you don't need to run faster then the bear just faster then the other guy.  Good luck to all.

I would personally view this advice with extreme skepticism.

A hypothetical case like this could presumably be taken on contingency, and/or attorneys fees may be separate from any recovery.

 Of course, there's always a chance of a company disappearing into the night or going bankrupt.

But see my sig.
10  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Hashfast Scam Timeline (Do not give hashfast your money) on: January 04, 2014, 01:19:33 AM
I have no reason to actually see it, I was just curious because it was the only one not linked.

Appreciate it.
11  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Hashfast Scam Timeline (Do not give hashfast your money) on: January 03, 2014, 11:38:07 PM
Where is the 8/16/13 "Cara @ Support" quote coming from, by the way?
12  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: January 03, 2014, 11:09:05 PM
Really do we need to have the refund in BTC debate every day?

What's really going on over there with the hardware? They said on the 28th they are going into production. They shipped some preproduction boards on new years eve. Now silence again. Did rev2 boards suck too?

While I have no skin in the game, in some instances, they're allegedly holding hostage nearly $50k in bitcoins. I think that's a good cause for continuing to have this debate!

And it's interesting, and it has yet to be resolved.
13  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Open letter to Hashfast in response to refund terms. on: January 03, 2014, 10:28:08 PM
So i am asking you as a moderator. How do they get a scammer tag? Refuse full BTC refunds for who asks or how?
AFAIK we don't issue them anymore.

Quote from: RickJamesBTC
I gotta say, the trust system here is so hidden that it is basically useless. The BIG RED XXXX scammer tag needs to come back.
Once negatively rated by people in the default trust list, hashfast's posts will have a red warning next to them by people using the default trust list. It should be there already, in fact— is it not?

I can't imagine that ALL manufacturing for all products was paid for investors. Do you think they used B1 preorders to fund R&D on new machines?
They claimed that they wouldn't be using pre-orders to fund development, what they actually did is anyone's guess— much of the coin they'd been paid had apparently not been moved when people were investigating this a week ago.

It's certainly possible, even likely, that they spent some portion of it to cover the actual manufacturing— but we wouldn't know when. Though assuming their hardware works those costs should be amply recoverable.

What do you mean the coin hadn't been moved? I'd love to read those posts.
14  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Open letter to Hashfast in response to refund terms. on: January 03, 2014, 08:46:58 PM
::nods::

I think the key points are that they:

(1) Clearly promised full BTC refunds in the even that they didn't delivery in several venue and forum, including explicit direct communication

(2) Could easily have arranged to make full BTC refunds possible (by holding the coins or hedging against their change in value with an agreement with someone who was holding the coins). They claimed their manufacturing was paid for by investors, so the view that they'd hold the coin was completely realistic (and may be true).

(3) Sold products under terms that would have really only been attractive when secured by the expectation of refund of BTC paid in the event of default. They sold machines for BTC that produce BTC and can't practically be used for anything else, only a fool or a madman would buy such a machine without the expectation that they'd get as much or more BTC back from it.

When I purchased my hashrate estimate was that if they delivered on time my baby-jet units would lose about 10 BTC each, but since they were offering up to 4x more hashrate via MPP that would be enough to let me upgrade my mining hardware to "significantly less than 1.0 W/GH" at basically breakeven, or— if they were so late to deliver that MPP could not protect it against hashrate increases, that I'd receive a full refund of the BTC paid. It was my understanding and belief that hardware itself would be pretty profitable relative to COGS but I was willing to give up most of that profit with HF's high prices in exchange for they and their investors taking the considerable risk of delays and failures to deliver.


I can't imagine that ALL manufacturing for all products was paid for investors. Do you think they used B1 preorders to fund R&D on new machines?
15  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: January 03, 2014, 07:13:48 PM
Thank you, ced.

I also want to be clear (as I try to be in every thread in which I post): Absent an attorney-client relationship (i.e. someone specifically requesting my legal help and advice, and my obliging them) none of my general opinions or questions about what has happened should be taken to constitute legal advice or any opinions on the viability of any claims, or whether I think there are any claims. Nothing I say should be taken to create an attorney-client relationship, either!
16  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: January 03, 2014, 06:33:55 PM
Section J of the TOS:

"(j)       REFUNDS.  Any refunds due to Buyer will be made in United States Dollars, and for the purposes of calculating refunds, amounts paid in Bitcoin or other virtual currencies will be deemed paid in United States Dollars at the exchange rate given by Hashfast to its customers on the order date.  Refunds for partial order cancelations or returns will be adjusted for any discounts previously given to Buyer for volume purchases."

Was this always there?

Edit: using the wayback machine, I see that it was not.
17  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: January 03, 2014, 05:42:40 PM
How much did these machines cost? Sorry, I know I could probably dig through and find the answers, but this is a long thread.

On day 1, August 8, they were $5,600. Shipping for me was $169.57. Total cost in BTC was 61.0864.

So, if my math is right, BTC were around 1 BTC = $94 when you purchased. They're now $800. So under their policy, your refund would be around 7 BTC?

No read the refund policy in the pdf i linked. Under thier polcy you would get USD 5600 in a bank wire.

Apologies, I was working from the email on page 280.

Thank you.

Looking at it now, though, the second option (beginning "OPTIONAL") would seem to be what I'm addressing, while the first option would be the wire transfer in USD.
18  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: January 03, 2014, 05:34:13 PM
How much did these machines cost? Sorry, I know I could probably dig through and find the answers, but this is a long thread.

On day 1, August 8, they were $5,600. Shipping for me was $169.57. Total cost in BTC was 61.0864.

So, if my math is right, BTC were around 1 BTC = $94 when you purchased. They're now $800. So under their policy, your refund would be around 7 BTC?
19  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: January 03, 2014, 05:17:18 PM
How much did these machines cost? Sorry, I know I could probably dig through and find the answers, but this is a long thread.
20  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: January 03, 2014, 05:08:26 PM
Can someone clarify what -- if any -- refunds are being offered?

Are they saying that they'll refund you the amount of Bitcoins at the current exchange rate equivalent to the USD amount of Bitcoins at the time you made the purchase?

I.e. if you paid 50 BTC when 50 BTC were worth $75, and a BTC is worth $750 on the date of your refund, they'd be offering to refund 5 BTC?

Do I have that right?
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