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1  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty Protocol, Client and Coin (built on Bitcoin) - Official on: March 31, 2014, 06:43:15 PM
Short answer: you're assuming the data exists to validate at all client-side. Unfortunately that's not something you can assume. If you're just putting hashes of Counterparty data in the blockchain what is a client supposed to do if they can't find the corresponding data? If they assume it doesn't exist then you can be sybil attacked by someone who later reveals the data and changes the consensus out from under you. On the other hand, if you assume it must exist, and wait until you find that data, a trivial attack is to put fake hashes of alleged counterparty data in the blockchain.

You wouldn't have to solve any problem if your chain validated your transactions. You wouldn't need to bloat your chain with open orders like mastercoin and counterparty (if I understand correctly) do.
Colored coins don't put the open orders in the chain, but not all colored aspects of a colored coins transactions are validated.
If your chain validated all you need it to validate, you could even have SPV clients consuming a committed UTXO (something non-hardfork colored coins cannot give you).

I don't know mastercoin and counterparty deeply but I believe they use "accounts" (like ripple.com) instead of inputs/outputs (like bitcoin and freimarkets), which is another design mistake.

Too many efficiency sacrifices only to avoid bootstrapping your own chain like namecoin did when it wanted to support additional features.
If we all bitcoin users want to support these features in the bitcoin chain, there's a better way to do it: a hard fork.
I'm all for this features (asset issuance, p2p trade, ripple-like transitive trades, options, etc) in Bitcoin's main chain myself, but the right way.

You've also failed to read deeply into this thread. Reposting service: free, tips - welcome.

The blockchain itself would be most benefited by the use of OP_RETURN here, but it seems to me at least that there is a disconnect in the logic of why the size was halved among some, pointing to theoretical reasons as justification on why that would be a good idea instead of the *actual real world current uses*. While the optimal solution in your mind for Counterparty and others may be to move to their own side chains and store hashes in the Bitcoin blockchain using OP_RETURN, you have to understand that doing so is highly complex, rife with potential security issues, and that the only evidence supporting this is (as far as I know) essentially a theoretical-type thread on the Bitcoin developers mailing list. This would be a bit like me telling the Bitcoin devs that Bitcoin should move to using GHOST (https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/881.pdf) immediately as it's technically the optimal solution over the longer block times today. While the latter could be argued to be the case, it is a proposal that has not been fully vetted in the real world, and would introduce major protocol-level changes that could cause potential security and usability problems.
2  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty Protocol, Client and Coin (built on Bitcoin) - Official on: March 30, 2014, 10:41:35 PM


The Twitter spambots which have historically posted positive news on Mastercoin (as well as many other projects, to be fair), are now posting links to bellebite2014 posts to disparage Counterparty: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3qxtbed5dggmwqd/Screenshot%202014-03-30%2015.09.35.png

A sample of the Mastercoin posts these accounts make: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pw89c9dyozvx1dj/Screenshot%202014-03-30%2015.24.41.png

I don't know who is in charge of these accounts or what they are hoping to accomplish, but linking to the biggest troll in this thread as a source of Counterparty news is hilarious.
3  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty Protocol, Client and Coin (built on Bitcoin) - Official on: March 27, 2014, 04:46:51 PM
On r/Bitcoin

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/21il7g/the_greatest_threat_to_bitcoin_could_very_well/
4  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Are there other ways to give bitcoins to people physically besides paper wallets on: March 24, 2014, 07:34:45 PM
I'm looking for something that doesn't have a private key on it, more like something where people go to a website and redeem it. Does something like this exist?

What's the difference between a private key and some code you give them to redeem it?
A code that I give them can be on a website that explains bitcoin and how to use it and redeem it
Why would you want to ?
Read the title, to give bitcoins to people.

Let me make my question more explicit - why wouldn't you just send them to an address? And if you want to something to someone in person why wouldn't you just give them cash or checK ?
This is a bitcoin forum, isn't it? I'm trying to give bitcoins to people to get them interested, and those people won't have addresses yet. I want something non-technical (not a private key) to give them that's easy to understand, but still holds bitcoin value.

I think the best bet really will be a paper wallet. Without a private key, you have no Bitcoin value, as all Bitcoins must be attached to addresses that are attached to private keys.

This site has a great process for printing some very nice-looking paper wallets that are good for handouts. They should be relatively easy to understand because people are used to the concept of paper money.

there is a company which (cant remember name atm) sells bitcoin cards....but it doesnt have the private key on it. u redeem it on their website and they send the funds. this could solve the problem but u now have to trust a third party.

You mean like if I gave someone a piece of paper with a note - email me with your address to reedem .1 btc - and he emails me and I send .5 btc. Except You're paying middle-man fees to a company and the person has to go through some kind of verification procedure or create an account?
And this is instead of just giving someone 50 bucks ? Makes sense to me.
5  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty Protocol, Client and Coin (built on Bitcoin) - Official on: March 23, 2014, 07:47:31 PM
http://www.reddit.com/r/circlejerk/
6  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty Protocol, Client and Coin (built on Bitcoin) - Official on: March 21, 2014, 11:07:35 PM
It's nonconstructive nonsense to say the protocol shouldn't be used because the solution isn't as elegant as the dev's think it could be. I think Xnova has already responded on this point adequately. 

The blockchain itself would be most benefited by the use of OP_RETURN here, but it seems to me at least that there is a disconnect in the logic of why the size was halved among some, pointing to theoretical reasons as justification on why that would be a good idea instead of the *actual real world current uses*. While the optimal solution in your mind for Counterparty and others may be to move to their own side chains and store hashes in the Bitcoin blockchain using OP_RETURN, you have to understand that doing so is highly complex, rife with potential security issues, and that the only evidence supporting this is (as far as I know) essentially a theoretical-type thread on the Bitcoin developers mailing list. This would be a bit like me telling the Bitcoin devs that Bitcoin should move to using GHOST (https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/881.pdf) immediately as it's technically the optimal solution over the longer block times today. While the latter could be argued to be the case, it is a proposal that has not been fully vetted in the real world, and would introduce major protocol-level changes that could cause potential security and usability problems.
7  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty Protocol, Client and Coin (built on Bitcoin) - Official on: March 21, 2014, 10:47:42 PM
Based on a quick readover of https://github.com/PhantomPhreak/Counterparty, it looks like Counterparty wants to be Freimarkets, except Counterparty is built on top of bitcoin bad practices (eg, key reuse, "from addresses", etc) and a not-properly-softforked P2SH-like use of the blockchain's Script, rather than a merged-mined side-chain like this kind of thing should be...
8  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty Protocol, Client and Coin (built on Bitcoin) - Official on: March 21, 2014, 04:07:15 PM
9  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty Protocol, Client and Coin (built on Bitcoin) - Official on: March 21, 2014, 01:52:30 PM
10  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty Protocol, Client and Coin (built on Bitcoin) - Official on: March 21, 2014, 01:30:53 PM
Now, I am just a disinterested observer here (with investments in Bitcoin and all major 2.0 cryptos) so I don't speak for anybody but myself here; but it seems to me that Counterparty has Bitcoin over a barrel somewhat, especially with respect to the unspent outputs, which would be quite difficult to selectively block on the Bitcoin end.  It would quickly turn into a cat and mouse game.  Bitcoin could implement code to detect and block XCP transactions, but XCP changes a few parameters and re-launches a week later to get around it, which causes Bitcoin to respond, which causes a new change in XCP, etc. ad nauseum.  I don't think that anybody wants that.

No, it is trivial to block 100% of them.  A proposal to do just that appeared on the bitcoin-development mailing list yesterday from Peter Todd.  This proposed change would relay zero transactions with multisig outputs.

Most of the world is moving to P2SH for multisig, leaving the remaining "bare multisig" users mastercoin, counterparty, etc.



Hello Jeff - never got a response to my last post. Still wondering why the Bitcoin-QT client has bugs. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=518482
11  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty Protocol, Client and Coin (built on Bitcoin) - Official on: March 21, 2014, 01:18:12 PM


The miners have that duty.

These are the same question.

Too many people were getting the impression that OP_RETURN was a feature, meant to be used. It was never intended as such, only a way to "leave the windows unlocked so we don't need to replace the glass when someone breaks in". That is, to reduce the damage caused by people abusing Bitcoin.

Hello Luke, thank you for stopping by.  I am not clear on a few things if you do not mind.

Why do you speak of it as decided that data storage in the Blockchain constitutes abuse? How is Bitcoin actually hurt by this?
For example compared to newer protocol's Bitcoin has some massive disadvantages: an energy-inefficient proof-of-work mining system, long block times, a deflationary money supply - Newer protocols will have advantages in all of these regards (and most likely the 2.0 functionality that Counterparty has as well at some point). I would be inclined to think Bitcoin needs the added functionality to stay relevant to other rapidly developing technologies.

Not exactly. Miners certainly have the ability to decide which transactions they do and don't include, but they have a duty to use that ability to protect the system from abuses. 

And no, "don't abuse us with OP_RETURN" does not mean we are forcing you to abuse us in other ways.
If we lock the windows, we aren't forcing the burglar to break them. Stop trying to blame the victim.

Miners collect fees, block rewards - and most importantly of all can decide which transactions they want to include in their blocks. Since there is #free-choice as to whether to include the transactions - I don't really understand on what grounds you put #Miners in the #Victims, #Abused category.

It's more like #Abuse of the #Users to quite arbitrarily decide for them what the protocol is and isn't to be used for.
12  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: how to run bitcoind server on a ubuntu 13.04 server on: March 21, 2014, 05:05:12 AM
tried apt-get install bitcoind ?

The apt get repo is version .3.24 from 2011 - I wouldn't recommend it.


Use "Git clone http://github.com/...the rest..."

Then make it.

Then run it.


Translation: Move along people no need to point out how ****ing incompetent this is - for a project with a 12 billion dollar market cap.

Translation: no need to be an a$$, or how to be a noob who is ignored.

if you are running it on your server for your web site to handle lots of money, you should be able to compile it yourself. If you can't, the incompetent one isn't the project. Mt Gox and others have half-a$$ed it too.

If you are joe user, there are lots of wallets that are available and no need for this. 

Let me start that buggy QT client right up.
13  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty Protocol, Client and Coin (built on Bitcoin) - Official on: March 20, 2014, 05:30:23 AM
To date, I've not seen a blockchain data dumping scheme that could not be securely replaced with a simple hash.

You don't need to store data in the blockchain.  That is purely intellectual laziness.  Timestamping hash(data) is just as secure, while more efficient.

Furthermore, a secondary chain can be provably pegged to bitcoin: http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/32108143/


While you are here sir, interested to know why the QT client still has bugs - I never got a response on the newbie forum: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=518482
14  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: how to run bitcoind server on a ubuntu 13.04 server on: March 20, 2014, 05:16:01 AM
tried apt-get install bitcoind ?

The apt get repo is version .3.24 from 2011 - I wouldn't recommend it.

Who cares?

Wow this guy is smart - we should put him on the board for some foundation that has 12 billion dollars of peoples money at stake.
15  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty Protocol, Client and Coin (built on Bitcoin) - Official on: March 18, 2014, 07:58:15 PM
Hi Jahpowerbit, When I try to install the BoottleXCP for windows 7, I get the error "No Module named apsw". I am following the steps in http://www.reddit.com/r/xcp/comments/1zzhyg/.

Any help?

I think you may be able to pip3 install apsw - or there are binaries http://code.google.com/p/apsw/downloads/list 
Can't remember exactly how I did it and I don't have my windows pc to check.
16  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address” on: March 17, 2014, 11:31:35 PM

If you research a bit more, you will find Counterparty has not copied Mastercoin. Instead, Counterparty has created a project in the *same space* using a *different* approach. If Counterparty simply copied Mastercoin, why did Counterparty's development surpass that of Mastercoin's with a team of two core developers and no external funding in only half the time?

Because the Mastercoin dev's are incompetent?
17  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty Protocol, Client and Coin (built on Bitcoin) - Official on: March 17, 2014, 06:32:46 PM
I don't think the fee should be destroyed. It would be a much better idea to pay it to Bitcoin miners or XCP holders. No? Maybe I don't understand it well enough.

But yeah 5 xcp seems a bit much.

Destroying the fee is paying it to XCP holders.


Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto - June 21, 2010
"Lost coins only make everyone else’s coins worth slightly more. Think of it as a donation to everyone."

PS: I'd say 1 XCP for new assets. I like round & prime numbers. I'm afraid to see a wave a spam issuances like COKE/CRACK/METH/DILDO/FRENCHGIRL coming from the same guy if you lower it too much...




I am of the same view as well. We need to reduce the fees to encourage businesses, however at the same time not lower it too much that there will be spam issuances and asset squatting. Which will stand in the way of legitimate businesses and users.
1 XCP seems about right (Nxt has an issuance fee of 1000 Nxt).

People go through the day speaking an average of maybe 2000 english words - at 1 XCP per asset it is far too little, even 5 is too little.
It should be the like of 50 or 100 IMO. And the line about being in the way of legitimate businesses is pure bogus - there is no legitimate business that cannot afford 100 xcp.

Bitcoin Tangible Trust, if you want to issue an asset for a fully-redeemable silver coin that costs you, say, $20 to buy and put into custody?  How does a 5 XCP asset issuance fee effect the end price that you need to charge a customer to buy this silver coin?  

EDIT:  OK, I just did the math.  5 XCP = $32 @ 0.01 BTC/XCP and $640 BTC/USD.  So, basically at 5 XCP issuance fee you would need to charge $52 for a silver coin that otherwise could be purchased from a coin dealer for $20.  So, yes, from my basic analysis, this seems like a blockage, at least for BTT's business model anyways.

EDIT: Porqupine, maybe you see / understand something that I am missing?  Can you please elaborate?  Interested to better understand your perspective, as you always have such good postings on this list.



The asset issuance fee is a one time fee - you can issue Silvercoin quantity=100 or =1000 or however many you like.
18  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: how to run bitcoind server on a ubuntu 13.04 server on: March 17, 2014, 02:53:11 AM
No, only for the software that they use to store thousands of dollars with.

And of course it's completely normal that the software which people use to store thousands of dollars from day to day should have an official repo dating back to 2011.

19  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: how to run bitcoind server on a ubuntu 13.04 server on: March 17, 2014, 02:39:26 AM
You mean for everything someone intends to install using apt-get they should in fact assume that the PPA repo is 3 years old and google for the updated version? Isn't that rather counter-intuitive ?
20  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: how to run bitcoind server on a ubuntu 13.04 server on: March 17, 2014, 12:16:45 AM
tried apt-get install bitcoind ?

The apt get repo is version .3.24 from 2011 - I wouldn't recommend it.


Use "Git clone http://github.com/...the rest..."

Then make it.

Then run it.


Translation: Move along people no need to point out how ****ing incompetent this is - for a project with a 12 billion dollar market cap.
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