If I would write down my name and "1,000,000 ounces of gold" next to it, I would hold a record of name and number, but I would own nothing. You can write down whatever record you want. Either you or Satoshi. You can put that record on digital or paper media. But you would still own nothing. By buying bitcoin you gave up your ownership of something and become member of bitcoin community. Membership in this community is identified via numbers. Even if you buy all the membership identifications, you would still own nothing. You would simply be the holder of a number "18,000,000". And you're not even able to eat this. That is how this membership is worthless. Having all the bitcoins in the world, but not even being able to eat.
i eat food thanks to bitcoin. i pay bills thanks to bitcoin. i dont need to touch fiat to achieve this. this case has been true for loads of people even as far back as 2010 when laszlo got pizza thanks to paying bitcoin in the frist example of bitcoin being used to buy real goods/services. laszlo did not need to touch fiat. he just needed to pay a bitcoin address some bitcoin, wait to open his front door and see a pizza delivery guy turn up since then there are hundreds of thousands of merchants selling goods and services, millions of people using it to buy goods and services millions of people using it for other uses too the price of bitcoin in 2010 was: 10,000btc for ~$41 (1btc=~$0.0041c) now its price is 1btc=~$41,000 the reason for the 10,000,000x cost of acquisition value difference is simple. its become 10,000,000x more expensive to mine bitcoin imagine it this way 114 cpu's were mining in 2010 114 cpu at a 90w electric consumption =10.26kw/h= 246.24kwh a day at 12 cent/kw = $29.55 (combined mining cost for everyone to share 7200coin daily mined coins) which is $0.0041c per btc acquisition value at american residential electric rate imagine it this way 1.6m asics at $12k hardware cost each. $19,200,000,000 which spread hardware over 2 years = hard ware cost $29,223.74/btc for hardware then we calculate the electric 1.6m asics at 3.25kwh =5,200,000kw/h at us residential rate of 12cent(as used above) = $624,000 an hour = $16,640/btc hardware+electric=$45,863.74 cost to mine at home in america meaning hobby bitcoin miners prefer to buy rather than mine right now at K'stan industrial rate of 4cent = $208,000 an hour = $5,546.67/btc hardware+electric=$34,770.41 cost to mine at a kazahkstan asic farm meaning kazahkstan mining farms prefer to mine rather than buy you can actually look up the electric rate of different countries and calculate the costs. and work out which countries prefer to buy or mine. so calculating the economic value is actually easy. as for the utility value(features) which people want to acquire it. there are many things you can do with bitcoin and many people have many reasons. its not just to hoard to hedge against inflation. people can actually buy things with it. i dont mean just swap for fiat. i mean actually buy (goods and services) without needing to touch fiat in the process. people choose to use bitcoin as oppose to other mediums. because bitcoin has features that they cant get in other mediums features such as not needing to apply for an account needing to submit their name, home address, social security numbers. they just create a public key. easy. free, no registration required. they can send funds internationally far cheaper then international fiat wire transfer the recipient doesnt need documented ID to receive funds it can be used to set up 'trust funds' without lawyers using a bank note, you cant make a trust without lawyers and bank managers authorisation. sure you can stick it under a mattress and tell your wife and kids to only use the bank note after your death. but thats emotional trust. not a ruled 'trust'. in bitcoin you just set up a multisig. no registration required no documented ID, no lawyers it can be used to do many other things(some listed many posts ago) You eat food thanks to people that produced it and then gave it up for membership in bitcoin community. You pay bills thanks to people that are willing to trade their ownership for membership. Storing and transferring membership identifications in bitcoin community is possible because miners give up their ownership of electricity in order get the same identifications. Generally, a small piece of plastic or stiff paper is used to identify you are a member of a group, organization or community. Here, a digital number is used for that purpose. As the community members, you organize events, join on social media to talk about economics, conspiracy theories about the banks, and an utopian society. You think of yourselves as a superior to non-members. You live in an illusion that you own a revolutionary money or assets with supernatural features. You are dreaming of becoming rich. Your have feelings of being special, purposeful, taken care of, free. The latter reminds me of Visualize - Self-Realization Center Church, a philosophic and spiritual cult, led by Bret Stiles. (from the series The mentalist) What you all have in common is that you were fooled into believing that you participated in an economic transaction. But you didn't. An economic transaction is the exchange of ownerships. You on the other hand exchanged ownership for membership. Basically you gave up something for nothing given the membership status grants you no benefits, unlike for e g. a club membership. The more things you gave up the higher is the rating in the community that you earned, that is, you got bigger number. In a nutshell, bitcoin is the good old method to transfer wealth from the masses to the few. It's just that it is dressed up in a new uniform. So, stop with this endless rants of yours. You cannot fool anyone here. |
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It's not my opinion that once you enter bitcoin system you own nothing.
Wrong. You can't own Bitcoin and "nothing" at the same time. That's an oxymoron. Whether it's something in digital or some other form is irrelevant. Whether you see any value in it or not is irrelevant as well. You obviously own "something" so your argument is invalid. And it's not my opinion that all systems where you own nothing by being member, collapse eventually.
Based on what facts? As I have said before, there was nothing like Bitcoin before it, and that is an undeniable fact, so you cannot arbitrarily compare it to anything that existed before. The facts that the record of membership is currently digital, decentralized, traded on the market mean nothing. People eventually stop trading their ownership of something for a mere membership status.
That's your opinion, and I accept it even if I don't agree with it. So when do you think this will happen? In five years? In fifty years? In our lifetimes? In ten generations? When the human race becomes extinct? When the sun becomes a supernova?? Well, you can use semantic tricks but that means nothing. Holding a record and owning something are two entirely different things. When you buy a stock you hold a record of name and quantity, but you own capital or equity. When you buy bitcoin you hold a record of name and number but own nothing. If I would write down my name and "1,000,000 ounces of gold" next to it, I would hold a record of name and number, but I would own nothing. You can write down whatever record you want. Either you or Satoshi. You can put that record on digital or paper media. But you would still own nothing. By buying bitcoin you gave up your ownership of something and become member of bitcoin community. Membership in this community is identified via numbers. Even if you buy all the membership identifications, you would still own nothing. You would simply be the holder of a number "18,000,000". And you're not even able to eat this. That is how this membership is worthless. Having all the bitcoins in the world, but not even being able to eat. |
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Yes, people behave stupid. That's why we have ponzi-like schemes and market bubbles. But that's off topic. Here we talk about the fact that by holding bitcoin you own nothing. Regardless if price of a particular stock is hundred times above it's real value that fact won't change. And of course, marketcap of bitcoin is the stupidest concept in this whole fantasy kingdom. There's zero capital owned by bitcoin holders, so zero shares in capital multiplied by markt price gives zero.
Let's say what you just said was true for a moment. What's your solution? You expect everybody to sell their bitcoins? As you see it is not collapsing but getting only bigger. Here is a good reason which'll make you buy: Just participate so you can also make money. You don't even have to buy a "whole" bitcoin to participate. You can use 1% of your wealth. Dump it when it becomes 2%. You will be risking only 1% of your total wealth. No matter how many times you scream that "crypto has no value", "it is worthless" bla bla bla, the markets don't give af. The price tag for a coin is still $42k. You can either join, or you can cry all you want. Nobody really cares. If you are so sure about that crypto has no value, why don't you short it anyway? Have fun staying poor. My goal is not to change people's behavior. Once they invested in something, people are driven by fear or greed and no amount of rational arguments or facts can help them. My goal is simply to present the truth. How will people handle the truth it's up to them. So, you've never experienced that financial schemes, where people hold the record of membership but own nothing, collapse? Interesting.
No, I haven't. Not like Bitcoin. Have you? Could you name at least one? Since, as far as I know, there was nothing like Bitcoin before Bitcoin. Bitcoin is just a means of luring people to trade their ownership of something for the ownership of nothing. This is simply the same old scheme dressed up in a new uniform. By entering the scheme the investors gave up their ownership of electricity, cars, houses, phones, debt, equity...whatever. Only to end up with a record in a ledger. That's nothing new. People have always been recorded in some way when joining such schemes. It's just that currently the ledger is digital and decentralized. Given that no one can live off of records in a ledger (decentralized or not), members desperately need new investors to exist the scheme. That's why in bitcoin you needed all that mantras about revolution, new internet, societal salvation, freedom... storytelling about the Moon... You have to lure people into the scheme somehow. Eventually people figure out what is going on and everything collapses. Your entire statement here is based only on your opinion and has no foundation in facts. You cannot call that a truism. I asked you to explain the simple premise upon which you base your conclusion, but you can't even do that, instead you are deflecting and avoiding the simple question. Why is that?
Here is a good reason which'll make you buy: Just participate so you can also make money. You don't even have to buy a "whole" bitcoin to participate. You can use 1% of your wealth. Dump it when it becomes 2%. You will be risking only 1% of your total wealth.
No matter how many times you scream that "crypto has no value", "it is worthless" bla bla bla, the markets don't give af. The price tag for a coin is still $42k. You can either join, or you can cry all you want. Nobody really cares. If you are so sure about that crypto has no value, why don't you short it anyway?
Have fun staying poor.
No. It's too late for him! He's been ranting the same shit since 2017. A smart man would have moved on by now, but apparently his head cannot fathom the concept of letting go of stuff and that he might be wrong.  It's not my opinion that once you enter bitcoin system you own nothing. And it's not my opinion that all systems where you own nothing by being member, collapse eventually. The facts that the record of membership is currently digital, decentralized, traded on the market mean nothing. People eventually stop trading their ownership of something for a mere membership status. |
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The level of your reality denial is stunning. Stock holder own capital. Capital is not nothing. Stop flogging a dead horse.
i gotta laugh there have been people that went to retail closing down sales and literally bought 100k of their branded plastic carrier bags, treating them as a collectable(after the brand was closed) by selling a few of them for $10 each, thus valuing their 'stock' at $1m even though the actual cost was just $1k as long as you can pretend you are able to sell all products in a year at a given price you pretend exists. you can pretend anything as part of the inventory section of capital valuation. .. take elon musk. supposedly he is worth over $1trillion.. but do you think he could ever be able to scrape together $1trillion in only 365 days if he was requested to.. no way will he be able to. alot of people think bitcoins marketcap means something.. it doesnt its just a multiplication of the current price of a coin multiplied by how many coins there are. capital is not based on anything real. so dont think that 'capital' is meaningful. its not.. its just math. same with any company, stock, share Yes, people behave stupid. That's why we have ponzi-like schemes and market bubbles. But that's off topic. Here we talk about the fact that by holding bitcoin you own nothing. Regardless if price of a particular stock is hundred times above it's real value that fact won't change. And of course, marketcap of bitcoin is the stupidest concept in this whole fantasy kingdom. There's zero capital owned by bitcoin holders, so zero shares in capital multiplied by markt price gives zero. |
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Given that no one can live off of records in a ledger (decentralized or not), members desperately need new investors to exist a scheme. This is true for every property. There's no stock holder I know who doesn't want new investors to enter the business. Same goes for every other tradable item. The more demand it has, the better it is for their pockets. This is true even for pension. If the youth stops working, the elders will stop earning and the system will collapse. The elders need newcomers. I haven't seen you say that those are ponzis. None of those, including Bitcoin, is a ponzi scheme and I've already told you why. Yes, there's faith that people will continue using Bitcoin, I don't disagree, but it has nothing to do with the ponzi narrative. It's how free markets work. There's also faith that your system will continue working undisturbed, that there isn't going to be bankruptcy, that it won't corrupt, yet every fiat currency has lost most of its purchasing power overtime. Eventually people figure out what is going on and everything collapses. Or: It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. The level of your reality denial is stunning. Stock holder own capital. Capital is not nothing. Stop flogging a dead horse. |
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So, you've never experienced that financial schemes, where people hold the record of membership but own nothing, collapse? Interesting.
No, I haven't. Not like Bitcoin. Have you? Could you name at least one? Since, as far as I know, there was nothing like Bitcoin before Bitcoin. Bitcoin is just a means of luring people to trade their ownership of something for the ownership of nothing. This is simply the same old scheme dressed up in a new uniform. By entering the scheme the investors gave up their ownership of electricity, cars, houses, phones, debt, equity...whatever. Only to end up with a record in a ledger. That's nothing new. People have always been recorded in some way when joining such schemes. It's just that currently the ledger is digital and decentralized. Given that no one can live off of records in a ledger (decentralized or not), members desperately need new investors to exist the scheme. That's why in bitcoin you needed all that mantras about revolution, new internet, societal salvation, freedom... storytelling about the Moon... You have to lure people into the scheme somehow. Eventually people figure out what is going on and everything collapses. |
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Why stop there? We could destroy an entire planet, or even an entire solar system... That should stop it, right? It'd destroy the implementation, yeah, but not the idea. Ideas are bulletproof. Now, @Antithesis, I answered your questions, even though you weren't a potential Bitcoin buyer in the first place. You denied all of my answers 'cause you think they're irrational. Unfortunately, your mind was set before you submit this. So I guess, we'll have to agree we disagree. I asked for rational reasons. Not excuses for entering the system. You're basically saying that I should trade my ownership of something for the ownership of nothing because you've accepted the record of the latter as a currency. Which is as nonsensical as saying: "I've traded my car for monopoly money because I've accepted it as a money." Or, I've traded my house for a record in a ponzi scheme because I've accepted this record as a bond. Well, in your imagination you can decide to accept whatever you want. But that's not doing business. That's trying to justify irrational behavior. If you want to discuss that water is wet and the sky is blue you should find someone else.
While I can see the blue sky every morning, and feel the water wet every time I touch it, I've never experienced anybody stopping Bitcoin from the moment it was created. Yet, you claim that it is a truism, and that it needs no proof. How is that?
Why stop there? We could destroy an entire planet, or even an entire solar system... That should stop it, right? It'd destroy the implementation, yeah, but not the idea. Ideas are bulletproof. Yeah, but we can't live off ideas, can we? (assuming we survive the destruction of the solar system)  So, you've never experienced that financial schemes, where people hold the record of membership but own nothing, collapse? Interesting. |
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As I said, it cannot be a truism if it cannot be proven. You failed to do it. Which is actually surprising, since true truisms shouldn't be hard to prove, right?
Yes, but I am not going to do so. Yeah... I didn't think you would. So much for an argumentative discussion with you. If I remember correctly, we already did this dance a few years ago? If you set up something, you can shut it down. If you kill every person on Earth? Yeah, it'll sooner or later stop working. Why stop there? We could destroy an entire planet, or even an entire solar system... That should stop it, right? If you want to discuss that water is wet and the sky is blue you should find someone else. |
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So? Your record by which you own nothing is not managed by an individual. Again, I do own units of a system we, as individuals, evaluate, because we've accepted it as a currency. It's not like money of monopoly. If you set up something, you can shut it down. If you kill every person on Earth? Yeah, it'll sooner or later stop working. You own nothing. You hold a number. That's why you need someone to enter the system, you need a new investor to transfer you the ownership of something. Without that all you can do is play an internet game with your community of holders where you send each other numbers. It's a digital game of a primitive, boring monopoly. |
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And how would you go about doing that? As you introduced this premise, you should know how to answer such a simple question.
That's not a premise in an argument but a generic, true statement that needs no proof. You seem to be dodging the simple question. That's slightly to be expected isn't it? A premise that cannot be proven as true cannot be a true statement. You commit a classic logical fallacy. Like I've said, it's not a premise. It's truism. If you set up something, you can shut it down. There's nothing to argue about. As I said, it cannot be a truism if it cannot be proven. You failed to do it. Which is actually surprising, since true truisms shouldn't be hard to prove, right? Yes, but I am not going to do so. |
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And how would you go about doing that? As you introduced this premise, you should know how to answer such a simple question.
That's not a premise in an argument but a generic, true statement that needs no proof. You seem to be dodging the simple question. That's slightly to be expected isn't it? A premise that cannot be proven as true cannot be a true statement. You commit a classic logical fallacy. Like I've said, it's not a premise. It's a truism. If you set up something, you can shut it down. There's nothing to argue about. |
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All systems that manage ownership have people and thus, all such systems can be corrupted and pose a threat to someone's ownership. Great, Bitcoin isn't managed by an individual, that's all I'm saying. In bitcoin system there's no ownership. There is, the bitcoins. So, there's nothing to be managed by the people and there's nothing that can be under a threat. This is a false conclusion. Just because it isn't managed by individuals doesn't mean it can't be under a threat and oppositely. Bitcoin is monopoly money simply because, the same as in the game of monopoly, by holding 'money' you own nothing. I know that, down there, you know you're spitting nonsense. So? Your record by which you own nothing is not managed by an individual. Point? Bitcoins are indeed ownership, but ownership of nothing. Just like money in the game of monopoly. You know, down there, I am stating facts. |
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If today the whole bitcoin system is shut down, nobody's ownership would be lost.
That's a pretty big IF. How exactly would someone go about doing that? Can you describe that fictional scenario in more detail? Anything that you set up can be shut down. For whatever reason. It's not like bitcoin system is a deity. And how would you go about doing that? As you introduced this premise, you should know how to answer such a simple question. That's not a premise in an argument but a generic, true statement that needs no proof. |
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That's pretty naive way of looking at things. It's not fiat monetary system that is a problem, but government. But, you can't deny that the government must be involved. The system requires a central point of failure to work. It's designed to be corrupted at some point in the future. You're the one who sounds naive; if it's a theory that doesn't work in practice, it's a wrong theory. But, you cannot solve this problem with monopoly money like bitcoin. Read what you're typing. Bitcoin, monopoly money? Then what's fiat that is exclusively possessed by the central banks? Also, you pretty much can. Bitcoin discriminates money and state. It promotes free trade and censorship-resistance. That's a pretty big IF. Indeed. Bitcoin can't disappear currently, it's a science fiction scenario. Anything that you set up can be shut down. You don't understand how things work. Become disciplined and learn. People are corrupted. All systems that manage ownership have people and thus, all such systems can be corrupted and pose a threat to someone's ownership. Welcome to the real world. In bitcoin system there's no ownership. So, there's nothing to be managed by the people and there's nothing that can be under a threat. Bitcoin is monopoly money simply because, the same as in the game of monopoly, by holding 'money' you own nothing. This is unlike in the world of grown-ups where by holding dollars, a deed, or a certificate of title you own debt, a building or a car. |
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If today the whole bitcoin system is shut down, nobody's ownership would be lost.
That's a pretty big IF. How exactly would someone go about doing that? Can you describe that fictional scenario in more detail? Anything that you set up can be shut down. For whatever reason. It's not like bitcoin system is a deity. |
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We are talking about business here, not social oppression and conspiracy theories. Actually, the entire banking system, the way it currently works, is a conspiracy to humanity. It's not a business when one entity decides how's money gonna work. That's reign. Prior 1971, the gold standard was followed and every bank was following specific rules such as one note corresponded to a fixed amount of gold etc. But, at the moment, this is really not the case. A government appears to have exceedingly much power to the economy of the society. The output of employment and inflation is down to their hands. When the state is inextricably linked with money, then the economy follows their behavior. This is when some free market minds awoke. That's pretty naive way of looking at things. It's not fiat monetary system that is a problem, but government. Government is the problem. It has monopoly on coercion. A corrupt government can destroy everything. In communism people were coerced out of their ownership on mere government fiat. Governments can do whatever they want because they have power. But, you cannot solve this problem with monopoly money like bitcoin. Botcoin is just holding numbers and owning nothing. A modern ponzi like redistribution scheme. If you own nothing, there's nothing to be destroyed or taken away from you. If today the whole bitcoin system is shut down, nobody's ownership would be lost. Because by holding bitcoin people have the ownership of nothing. They gave up their ownership when entering the bitcoin scheme. The only way to solve the problem is by keeping governments small and in check. |
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Fiat money has purpose of settling debt to the banks given that all fiat is someone's loan. All paper fiat is debt owed to central banks by the commercial banks All digital fiat is debt owed to commercial banks by individuals and companies. In the same time, all paper fiat is debt owed to holders by the central banks. And all digital fiat is debt owed to holders by commercial banks. If you don't believe me, check the accounting books of the commercial and central banks. So, fiat holders are debt owners. Their ownership is valuable because it has the ability to redeem the debt of the banks, individuals and companies.
Translation: " Tools of subjugation and oppression are valuable to those in power. Everyone should be grateful for the opportunity to march to the beat of the Bankster's drums. It's downright unconscionable that any of you should want to adopt a system which cannot be used to control the masses in the same way fiat can."  If that's your idea of "value", you can keep it, thanks. Also, have you now abandoned all effort to maintain the pretense that you're interested in purchasing Bitcoin? I get the sense that you're possibly not a fan of personal freedom and would happily attempt to talk people out of choosing it wherever you might be able to. Fortunately, you're not very convincing. We are talking about business here, not social oppression and conspiracy theories. In that sense, sure, I will keep my ownership of valuable resource that can be used for redeeming debt of individuals, companies and banks. This resource ensures that as long there's debt, these entities will trade me the things I can live off of. And that's not oppression. That's business. I am oppressing no one. It's not me who's responsible for someone's debt. I only invested in it. You, on the other hand, are free to live in faith that someone will voluntarily give you things you can live off of for the number that you hold. But, that's nor business. That's utopia. What happened, Antithesis? Do we now choose whose mouth we want to shut? You respond only to what's interesting you, in this case franky, who, as always, keeps writing walls of text until he's proved right. Consider re-checking these: And what did people do before the introduction of such system? Weren't they developing mediums of exchange? So we're just glossing over the part where it's not actually possible for everyone to repay their loans? [...] The translation takes the cake. I tend to ignore off topic stuff. |
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I am getting services from a guy that has loan. He provides me services, I pay him in bank notes and he uses them for his loan repayments. That's the purpose of fiat currency system: investing in debt ownership and getting stuff from the borrowers so they can settle their monetary debt to the banks and non-monerary debt to fiat currency holders. So, there's no need for new investors to enter into the system. The borrowers, the banks and the holders are the only three necessary party for the system operation. In bitcoin, without new investors the operation of the system boils down to an infinite loop of nonsensical activity where miners are spending a ton of electricity to maintain a network where people send each other numbers.
um no you are not getting any bonus. deal, freebie, extra, or service.. you are PAYING someone. no matter what the currency is no matter if the the person selling you a service took out a loan or not. the service you are buying is the same, whether the service provider had a loan or not. you buying a service has nothing to do with loans That's the purpose of fiat currency system: investing in debt ownership and getting stuff from the borrowers so they can settle their monetary debt to the banks and non-monerary debt to fiat currency holders. if you think people only work to pay off loans. where all employment and services are to cater to debt. then guess what. i am afraid to tell you that there are many many people that do not even take out loans. the reason they work or offer services has nothing to do with loans. also those getting loans are not giving someone on demand a free service. loans do not give bank notes value. a person taking a loan out, is getting money created from nothing but the loan might buy them 100% of goods. if they spend it that day. but then they have to work 140% over time to repay the bank(including tax(20%) and interest(X%/year for X years)) so his 100% spend on day one costs him 140% later.. thus that 100% on day one is worth less value due to later cost, compared to if he just worked and saved up to get 100% without a loan. loans cause inflation meaning if you wanted your lawn cut by a debtless gardener and a indebted gardener. the indebted gardener would charge you 140% as oppose to 100%. so a loan doesnt give you something. it actually costs you more. meaning you lose something. if you offerd both gardeners $10. the one without debt will cut your grass for 1 hour. where as the indebt gardener would cut it for 43 minutes and want another $4 if you want a full hours gardening done for you. also you as a separate person that is not part of a loan contract gets nothing from the loan when you hold a bank note. and over tine because of inflation the value of your bank note depreciates too(you can buy 4 loaves of bread today but 3 loaves if you held onto the bank note untill 2030) for the multitude of times. YOU DONT and YOU ARE NOT "getting stuff from a borrower" there is no contract between a person getting a loan and you as a bank note holder there is no benefit, freebie, something you get from someone else having a loan It seems that you are so obsessed with bitcoin that you deny basic reality. Fiat money has purpose of settling debt to the banks given that all fiat is someone's loan. All paper fiat is debt owed to central banks by the commercial banks All digital fiat is debt owed to commercial banks by individuals and companies. In the same time, all paper fiat is debt owed to holders by the central banks. And all digital fiat is debt owed to holders by commercial banks. If you don't believe me, check the accounting books of the commercial and central banks. So, fiat holders are debt owners. Their ownership is valuable because it has the ability to redeem the debt of the banks, individuals and companies. You don't need new investors to bring it the value to the holders. They already own value. In bitcoin system, without new investors all you have is numbers and an enormous spending of electricity to maintain the system where the only thing people can do is send each other these numbers. So, stop denying reality and spreading misinformation. |
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B) Because people like franky1 are keep repeating the same misinformation, especially about banking system.
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You are wrong, agan. If we take all the people that are holding bank notes and spend time working to get banknotes and assume that from now on, no new investor enters the system, the borrowers, who are part of the system, would via loan repayments simply return the holders the things they can live off of, and the system would cease to exist. In the bitcoin system, such things can be brought only by new investors. So, without them, all you would have is an infinite loop of nonsensical activity where miners are spending a ton of electricity to maintain a primitive email system where people send each other numbers.
you have the things wrong here. EG say you are a holder of a bank note. every minute of each day some borrower somewhere is rapaying a BANK but what are you getting? what have you gained in that minute, in that day, month, year.?. NOTHING there is no: "the borrowers, who are part of the system, would via loan repayments simply return the holders the things they can live off of," for people holding a bank note. people live off things like bread.. you get no bread from a borrower or a bank each year the purchasing power of a bank note becomes less, not more having a bank note from 2008 means you could have went to a retailer and traded your bank note for 5 loaves, but now, trading with a retailer you will only get 4 loaves. the loan thing, you obsess but dont understand, has not gained you anything. because its a contract between the loanee and the bank. the loanee is 'borrowing(taking with promise to give back) the banks created value. not a previous bank note holding person because there is no contract between a loanee and a person holding a bank note as for saying bitcoin can only be bought by new investors. you are wrong i can accumilate coin without others. its called mining. i dont need constant "new investors" to exist to use bitcoin or to trade bitcoin. theres a term you are ignoring called circulation. where current people holding can swap value with each other. and do so in many ways. its not just "buying" or "investing" its not to do with market exchange investing. you can offer labour, goods, services, ingame artifacts, plane tickets, traintickets, coffee, you name it. I am getting services from a guy that has loan. He provides me services, I pay him in bank notes and he uses them for his loan repayments. That's the purpose of fiat currency system: investing in debt ownership and getting stuff from the borrowers so they can settle their monetary debt to the banks and non-monerary debt to fiat currency holders. So, there's no need for new investors to enter into the system. The borrowers, the banks and the holders are the only three necessary party for the system operation. In bitcoin, without new investors the operation of the system boils down to an infinite loop of nonsensical activity where miners are spending a ton of electricity to maintain a network where people send each other numbers. |
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"You shouldn't buy it" is not an answer. If you sell bitcoin on the market you should be able to explain why this product is worth the price. Except if you bought it blindly, with no rational reason, and now you are selling it blindly. Then of course you are unable to provide a rational answer.
If "Why should I buy it?" is a valid question, then, "You shouldn't buy it" is also a valid answer. Whether you like it or don't like it is up to you. Keep in mind, though, that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.
Take all the people that are currently holding bitcoin and spend the electricity to mine it and assume that from now on no person enters the system by investing funds. What all those holders and miners can do with all the beautiful features of bitcoin, with their payment protocols, network, etc. Well, they can send each other numbers. That's all. And off of numbers non of them can live. I already said that a few days ago. Why do you keep repeating the same arguments incessantly? This discussion seems to be going round and round. People cannot live off of or otherwise utilize "a space in the ledger" or "numbers in a database". All they can do is keep the numbers to themselves indefinitely or give them to someone else.
Every group of people can create such a system for sending numbers. It's nothing more but a primitive email-like system. There is no point in trivializing something you don't understand. You may easily come to wrong conclusions when you use your ignorance as an argument. Bitcoin bears absolutely no resemblance to an email system and there is no point in comparing them. Read the Bitcoin whitepaper if you are interested in understanding its technical aspect. "You shouldn't buy it" is not a valid answer for someone who sells it. It's a logical contradiction to say for e g. "you shouldn't buy my iPhone", but in the same time selling that iPhone on the market. I guess that in the past you were selling your bitcoin, so if someone would have ask you the question, saying "you shouldn't buy it" is not a valid response. Why do I keep repeating the same arguments incessantly? For two reasons: A)"Repetitio est mater studiorum" B) Because people like franky1 are keep repeating the same misinformation, especially about banking system. Finally, saying that bitcoin bears no resemblance to an email system is like saying that vehicles bear no resemblance to airplanes. Of course, they don't, but they do the same thing: carry people or goods from one place to another. Likewise, both bitcoin system and email system carry data from one person to another. Bitcoin system is capable to carry only numbers, so it's basically a primitive email system. Take all the people that are currently holding bitcoin and spend the electricity to mine it and assume that from now on no person enters the system by investing funds.
funny part is take all the people that are holding bank notes and spend time working to get banknotes and assume that from now on no person enters fiat by buying bank notes. well then people are now holding colourful toilet paper (zimbabwe dollar) .. here is the thing though. before people had a market place to "invest" in bitcoin. people were using bitcoin. mining happened for 2 years before there was a proper investment market. people were sharing coin with each other. and using it. heck. if you just let a few people want to use it for spending. people will. Laszlo in 2010 got pizza for bitcoin, yep before there was an "investment" exchange way of getting bitcoin, people found value in it and utility. alpaca socks, bitcoin cupcakes. in the first month of january there were a few people mining, buy mid 2009 there were a few dozen buy the end of 2009 there were many many dozens of people mining and using it. so if you think that bitcoin is just "investing" to hold. your again ignoring the utility You are wrong, agan. If we take all the people that are holding bank notes and spend time working to get banknotes and assume that from now on, no new investor enters the system, the borrowers, who are part of the system, would via loan repayments simply return the holders the things they can live off of, and the system would cease to exist. In the bitcoin system, such things can be brought only by new investors. So, without them, all you would have is an infinite loop of nonsensical activity where miners are spending a ton of electricity to maintain a primitive email system where people send each other numbers. |
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