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1  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: ebay scam on selling used cards - the 0 feedback bidder trick on: December 03, 2012, 05:11:33 PM
I experienced the same thing recently. My best guess is this is others trying to dump their cards as well before the big GPU dump begins. They can take your card off the market for 8 days by doing this.
It's not just GPUs this has been happening with - I saw a blog post from someone who had the same thing happen repeatedly when they tried to sell their iPhone on eBay. Apparently eBay is basically unusable to normal everyday sellers these days.

It makes me ill every time I have to use ebay, either as a seller or a buyer. You never know what's going to happen and you can be sure ebay and/or Paypal will not stand behind you.

Not to mention that they now get about 13% of the total sale. 9-10% on the ebay auction and another 2-3% in paypal fees. They know they pretty much monopolize the online auction market and keep creeping up the final percentage cut and fees.
2  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: ebay scam on selling used cards - the 0 feedback bidder trick on: November 30, 2012, 07:35:49 PM
So 2 weeks ago I put 7 ATI cards up on ebay. 5 sold fine but 2 had highest bidders with 0 feedback. They never paid. I had to wait 4 days to file a dispute with ebay, and then 4 more days for the buyers not to reply, so ebay could refund my selling fees. Now the cards are relisted and selling again. I'm deleting any bids where the user has a 0 feedback score as this seems to be happening again! I've also blocked users with no paypal account from bidding (as much I hate to do that given the nature of paypal!) If someone doesn't pay this time I'll have to do a buy it now to guarantee payment - seems this is a common problem as the ebay forums mention it quite a bit. Thought I'd give everyone a heads up here though.

Has anyone else experienced such issues?

I experienced the same thing recently. My best guess is this is others trying to dump their cards as well before the big GPU dump begins. They can take your card off the market for 8 days by doing this. Fortunately, on one of them, the kid used an ebay name he uses many other places and found him on youtube, twitter and linkedin. Got him to admit he wouldn't pay and was able to relist immediately and when the 8 days ran out on the auction he burned, left his 0 fb account with a non-paying bidder hit.
3  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: ebay scam on selling used cards - the 0 feedback bidder trick on: November 30, 2012, 07:28:39 PM
There is an option you can select that will prevent buyers with 0 feedback from bidding on ur items.

No, there isn't.
4  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Spent a long afternoon with my Air Compressor on: November 30, 2012, 03:39:42 PM
Probably not the best example...  Did you notice the Net Profit line?  Or the 15 year payoff?  Wink

It's not ideal compared to what we are used to, but a 15 year payoff is 6.7% annually. This is considered to be a good investment in the non-bitcoin world. If you found such a good investment, you could ride it infinitely with a 4% Safe withdrawl rate.

Bitcoin people kind of have their heads up their asses when it comes to what a normal return is.

I think I might be one of those people with my head up my ass when it comes to normal return because I don't know what you are saying. How in the world is it a good thing that it takes 15 years to pay off a piece of technology before a profit is seen? Not to mention it's technology that can, within months, become inferior to subsequent ASICs or whatever new technology that will generate 100x the best ASICs being made now. These things could be obsolete in 6 months for all we know. If anyone thinks the bitcoin technology and circumstances are going to be stagnant for 15 years, they're kind of crazy.

I think at this point the honest person has to say to themselves with regard to ASICs, "I don't know". If you're a person of means in a good financial situation and can afford to throw around a few thousand dollars for fun, I say have at it and you are lucky, appreciate it and enjoy it. But if you live on a tighter budget like most of the world where a $1300 loss means something, it's probably in your best interest to be agnostic about ASICs and the bitcion ecosystem over the next 6 months and admit there isn't enough solid data to say anything with confidence...admit "I don't know".
5  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: BFL ASIC worth the risk for pre-order? on: November 30, 2012, 02:16:26 AM
...given that no one has seen a working BFL ASIC product.

That's all I would need to hear. No way in hell I would put down cash on a phantom product, might as well buy snake oil. They may indeed be able to deliver a product that works as advertised in the time frame as advertised but they may not as well. And any company that would charge my card or demand cash up front months before they intend to order is not a company I'd ever want to work with. A company should never charge your card or demand the cash until the product is in stock and ready to deliver. A down payment to reserve a spot in line for one, that's fine...but payment in full before they manufacture, or hell in this case, before they even finished conceptualizing the gizmo? That's crazy.

And what if you go conservative, throw down $1200, it works great, mines like a champ and then three months down the road you have problems with it. How does anyone know that this company won't sell a bunch of product with known reliability issues, cash out, close up shop and disappear?
6  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Spent a long afternoon with my Air Compressor on: November 30, 2012, 01:39:52 AM
I've got to ask, if you're selling 18 GPU's + other misc hardware, that should bring in at least $1500... why not buy an ASIC and keep the tradition going?

Well, I did spend a few days reading up on the pros/cons of ASIC pre-orders, thinking about it, and figuring out the best position on the issue.

My decision: ASIC is too risky right now. ESPECIALLY for pre-ordering non-existent hardware (yes, that includes hardware "in development")

1. No final hardware has been shown off; furthermore, there have already been many delays to the ship date.
2. One or more companies could be a scam. Bitcoin is all about making easy money, and it HAS attracted many scams and scammers in the past.
3. Recouping one's investment might already be impossible, unless you're in the top 5% of the wait list.
4. ASICs are only good for ONE thing. As gutsy as buying 18 GPUs was, it wasn't really all that risky. They can always be sold to gamers at any time. If you can't make back your $1300 Single due to skyrocketing difficulty, you're screwed. No one's going to shut off their ASIC. No one's going to repurpose a Single into a gaming rig. If someone quits and sells his Single, guess what? The buyer will fire it back up and it will be back on the Network. When the difficulty goes up, it WON'T be coming down...ever.
5. The whole ASIC thing gives me a bad feeling -- I mean about profitability. There is no barrier to entry; just plug & play. No more cooling setups, building clever rigs, finding space for them, watching the 15 amp circuit breaker limit, etc. My entire being says this is where things go "parabolic" -- where a dozen individuals or companies come in and BECOME the network. Or at least 95% of it.


Best post I've seen yet on the current and near future of mining. Came to the same conclusion and dumped 8 GPUs last month on ebay and got over 75% of original cost back. Check out ebay now...some 6950s standing at 80 bucks! The entire mining scene has become sketchy and almost silly. The ASICs may or may not turn out to be dependable and outstanding in many ways...but as it stands now, it's just as likely that many will be scammed or stuck with unworkable/unreliable equipment by amateur industrialists that fold not long after making couple million bucks.

But if ASICs do ending working as promised, it's even worse. Like stated above, this will become a plutocracy where a few well-heeled miners will drive the difficulty stake into the heart of all the small miners like myself. I'm out of the game now and kind of relieved. It was a lot of fun and very challenging but time to move on to a new hobby. There was never really any money in it for small timers like me but it was fun fooling myself Smiley
7  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Mt.Gox AML/KYC Process Explained on: June 08, 2012, 06:54:04 PM
Two things I'd like address:


1.) if a person transfers fiat from Dwolla or other entity to you and only then becomes aware of your AML/KYC requirements, you NEED an avenue available to reverse the funds or return the funds to the origin if they do not wish to comply.

The fact that my funds were frozen until I complied felt like being bullied...big time.  By holding my funds and demanding my driver's license or passport, you basically stole my funds and refused to give them back since I had no avenue of reversal or refund.

2.) You stated "While it would be a great income stream for us, sadly we are not legally allowed to sell your personal information."....

SADLY?  WTH???

Should I read "sadly" and "it would be a great income stream" to mean that the second you find a legal loophole, out the door goes my personal information? These aren't just email addresses and names and physical addresses. These are SS#s, DL #s, etc.

That was a pretty unnerving thing to hear.
8  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: MtGox Extortion on: June 07, 2012, 05:11:37 AM
Yes, extortion is a criminal act but "coercion" is a type of extortion. In this case perhaps I should have just stuck with coercion. And you can certainly get civil damages for financial coercion.  Regarding civil damages for a criminal act, you can sue as a victim of a crime and you can get damages. Just google "Civil action for damages for criminal act" and click any of the links on the first page for a variety of state code on the matter.

None of this applies to you because they are requiring you to comply with the law.  There is no crime being committed by MtGox and nor are they committing any tort.  Asking you to identify yourself in accordance with AML/KYC requirements is not coercion or extortion.  Nonetheless, I really hope that you do make a complaint to the A-G and file a civil action.  You'll give the lawyers some free entertainment and likely end up with your financial accounts being investigated for possible tax evasion.

Why didn't you just state your first sentence "There is no crime being committed by MtGox and nor are they committing any tort.  Asking you to identify yourself in accordance with AML/KYC requirements is not coercion or extortion." I think that would be sufficient to point out my ignorant use of the word "extortion" and calm my hyperbolic posts that were derived from a simple failure on the part of MtGox to send out a single email to users. Notice after my reply to LoupGaroux's measured and charitable post that my tone change quite a bit. He's a good measuring stick when it comes to informing others in a classy way.

9  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: MtGox Extortion on: June 07, 2012, 04:32:41 AM
Dwolla is equally involved in this identity thing, the difference is that they are cloaking their approach in the "isn't it cool that we can now interact with you through Facebook" line of bullshit. Same intrusive back-rape, same demand for access to your privacy without justifiable cause other than to make them a better buyout target, and to provide them with data to whore out to other companies for big paydays.

And no, I don't work for Gox, or Dwolla, or any other entity that has been described in this community. Or consult for them. It's just pure my attitude and experience in the world talking.

In that case, a sincere thanks for the info.
10  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: MtGox Extortion on: June 07, 2012, 04:24:54 AM
If you dont want to hand over your ID why cant they just give you back the money ?

This is the ethical thing to do.

I think the problem is that Dwolla won't let them without compliance. The interesting thing is that MtGox states that they have this policy because of Dwolla (they stated this exactly to me in an email) but Dwolla only required a utility bill with a current address on it. So MtGox points to Dwolla as the bad guy but then requires way more than Dwolla and says "dwolla is making us do it".

11  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: MtGox Extortion on: June 07, 2012, 04:16:32 AM
One more thing. To the second part of my original post, are there any BTC exchanges that are a decent alternative to MtGox? With Tradehill gone, does MtGox have exchange business all wrapped up to themselves? Like the poster above, I have no intention of keeping a balance with the exchange, only to buy and sell. I am not worried about the security of stored bitcoins but do value my privacy.
12  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: MtGox Extortion on: June 07, 2012, 04:11:52 AM
Sorry friend, but consumer protection laws do not include extortion clauses. You entered into an agreement with them, and if you read the fine print, that agreement included language that they can and will take whatever actions, and make whatever changes, they feel necessary to run/improve/stay legal with their business.

The chances of your State Attorney General doing anything other than filing your complaint in the round file are exactly zero. It's a company based in Japan, doing business through the internet exchanged hypothetical tokens of value that have no corporeal existence. They are offering at least as secure a protection scheme for your documents as your state driver's license agency, probably safer, they have a stronger vested interest in protecting your data than either your state or federal taxing authorities, and have less than a fraction of a percent of the exposure that your bank, your doctor and dentist, stock broker, credit card company, landlord, school, mortgage lender, selective service bureau, post office automobile dealership where you purchased a car or any police department that has stopped you for a moving violation; yet every one of those entities saw, and probably photocopied your identification documents. And most of them are keeping them in electronic form, on servers that are about as secure as Paris Hilton's virtue.

Send them your id. Add a specific statement that you will hold them liable for any data loss of breach of the security of your information, and demand that they destroy all traces of that document when you stop doing business with them.

Thanks for the excellent info. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Made me feel a little better but knowing what a big target everything bitcoin related is, seems spooky to send my DL number to a foreign entity that I know nothing about.  You are correct though that my info is plastered on servers across the country so I should relax a little about it. Sure hope you don't work for them or consult for them...I'd hate to have to throw out that second paragraph in the bias bin, it was pretty good.

I will file the complaint with the Attorney General's office though. I think MtGox deserves at least that for being jackasses and not emailing this change to users but rather relying on forums and their website when I don't visit the forums often and only visit their website AFTER transfers are initiated from Dwolla.
13  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: MtGox Extortion on: June 07, 2012, 04:05:13 AM
Extortion.   "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Mt.Gox failure to disclosure their identification policies in advance may be shady, hell it may even be illegal (doubtful) but under no possible interpretation of any law is it extortion. Even if it WAS extortion that is a criminal matter.  You can't seek civil damages for a criminal charge.  Even if a judge ruled that MtGox can't ask for your ID you have suffered no damages (legal sense of the word).  You can't seek redress for damages never suffered.

Under the totally implausible scenario that anyone took your case seriously, and you made it to court, and survived motions to dismiss, and ended up winning at best you would get your $100 back (maybe with some interest and no not that 1% per day interest in the lending forum the 1.5% APR interest you could claim as damages).  So in a year you might get $101.50.  Well no you won't but that is under the most asininely optimistic scenario you could possibly hope for.


I don't think you read my post above when I said:

"I would not have to prove this in a court of law as I am not suing them. But I do intend to file a formal complaint with the Attorney General of my state and with the emails they have sent me repeatedly asking for my personal ID for my $100, that is enough to get the formal complaint to stick with extortion in the record."

Before getting all high and mighty on me like I'm the idiot for suing for $100, please note that I explicitly state above that I am not going to sue them.  Why would I say that I am not suing them? Because that would be an asininely optimistic thing to say. The point was to convince others to file a formal complaint with the state Attorney General that MtGox stole $100 with this same method.
14  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: MtGox Extortion on: June 07, 2012, 04:00:07 AM
Extortion.   "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

I am certain your day job isn't law and I would recommend you not give up your day job any time soon.  Mt.Gox failure to disclosure their identification policies in advance may be shady hell it may even be illegal (doubtful) but under no possible interpretation of any law is it extortion. Even if it WAS extortion that is a criminal matter.  You can seek civil damages for a criminal charge.


Yes, extortion is a criminal act but "coercion" is a type of extortion. In this case perhaps I should have just stuck with coercion. And you can certainly get civil damages for financial coercion.  Regarding civil damages for a criminal act, you can sue as a victim of a crime and you can get damages. Just google "Civil action for damages for criminal act" and click any of the links on the first page for a variety of state code on the matter.
15  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: MtGox Extortion on: June 07, 2012, 03:49:32 AM
Yes, it does. The funny thing is that they said they Dwolla is the company that made them require this new policy. I told them that with Dwolla, I just had to submit a utility bill (and no photo ID) and then MtGox changed their reason. They said since they do international business, they need more information.

Their behavior is really bizarre in this matter and though I'm not one to buy into conspiracies, it's as if they are using this policy as a cover to farm data from users. SS #s and DL numbers could come in handy and could fetch a pretty penny if MtGox would ever to decide to pull a mybitcoin.com, "get hacked" and disappear with everyone's personal info. I know that may sound outlandish but how else to explain such stubborn and bizarre behavior over a simple $100 transfer?
16  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: MtGox Extortion on: June 07, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
Just because they aren't in the US does not make them immune. Immune from criminal prosecution, yes. But if a civil suit against them was successful, they could have any funds or assets in the US frozen and companies that do business with them could be sanctioned which would hurt them pretty bad.

Regarding extortion, under US law forcing another to do something against their will or face repercussions is called coercion which is codified under extortion. I would not have to prove this in a court of law as I am not suing them. But I do intend to file a formal complaint with the Attorney General of my state and with the emails they have sent me repeatedly asking for my personal ID for my $100, that is enough to get the formal complaint to stick with extortion in the record.

It is my hope that others will do the same so that in the future, in the event of a more broad act of malfeasance on the part of MtGox, a civil case will be much easier on the side of the consumer.
17  Economy / Trading Discussion / MtGox Extortion on: June 07, 2012, 02:52:27 AM
At the end of May I sent a $100 transfer from Dwolla to MtGox and after 5 days of the deposit not showing up, contacted them. I was unaware that MtGox had changed their policy and now require photo ID verification for Dwolla transfers. I was never notified about this by mail or any other method and so my funds were frozen until I verified.

I sent them a utility bill and a driver's license with the DL number edited out and stated that I simply cannot trust them to hold my license on their servers with my DL number exposed like that. I asked for them to cancel the transaction and send the money back to Dwolla. They say they cannot do that until I upload photo ID with no edited of the DL number.

This is plain and simple, extortion...but with a bizarre twist, they are holding my money hostage for personal information. But it is still considered extortion under US consumer law. My next step is to file a former complaint with my State Attorney General's office so if they make a pattern of this abuse, a case can be made for other companies to sever ties with them. If their behavior gets worse than my mere $100 and they steal a hell of a lot more, a civil case will be much easier to pursue with a trail of formal complaints at the state level.

Anyone have any advice for a situation like this other than what I've done? Is there another method to get MtGox to release funds to which they have no right?

Lastly, what are the best exchange alternatives right now?

Thanks for any input!
18  Other / Off-topic / Re: DEA agent discusses Bitcoin in class today on: November 04, 2011, 07:13:06 PM
The DEA prides itself on big hauls and tends to leave small stuff to the locals. Success in their line of work is measured in kilos and tons.

I can see them making a bit of noise about SR crackdowns to discourage use of the site, but it's hard to imagine them dedicating a ton of technological resources to a relatively tiny number of people selling each other dime bags over the Internet.

I could be wrong, but it seems like it would be a waste of a lot of time, energy, and money for very little return. Granted, that statement could apply to all drug law enforcement.

I think you hit the nail on the head regarding "waste of time, etc...". The reason silk road isn't going anywhere anytime soon is the size and scope. It is naturally restricted to a small internet community (relatively speaking) due to technology requirements.

Getting there with the Tor network is pretty straight forward but then going through the trouble of learning how bitcoin works, how to get funds from your hands to an exchange, how to then get the bitcoin to your wallet, then to SR will make your average user's head spin. Then throw in the fact that most seller's require PGP for messages within SR and the user now has to learn to use PGP ...suddenly the average user's head explodes. Easier for them to find some shady friend of a friend to get stuff from on the street.

This limited flow on SR would be like the cops wanting to spend hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars in man hours and technology to bust a a few kids selling playboy magazines to a bunch of 15 year olds when real life politics and public relations force them to do the morally superior thing, i.e., spending those same resources hunting down and prosecuting peddlers of child porn.
19  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: What's your shutdown point? on: November 04, 2011, 05:14:25 AM
To the OP point, my shutdown point was $4.75. Sold two rigs and kept the last one that has dual 6950s. Crossfired them and now have a kick ass Battlefield 3/COD MW3 machine. Will keep it to mine when I'm not gaming. Dual use is the only profit to be gained with coins so low.
20  Other / Off-topic / Re: DEA agent discusses Bitcoin in class today on: November 04, 2011, 05:08:41 AM
If you are a SR buyer, encrypt your wallet and never sign for a delivery, you are fine. You can only be busted by a PI if they get you in a controlled delivery which requires a signature. And the idea that the USPS would spend resources on a controlled delivery for personal use amounts of weed or pills is laughable. If you are buying a kilo of cocaine or heroine however, expect a controlled delivery and if you don't sign, expect a warranted search of your house/apt.
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