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In my opinion, the biggest monkey on BTC back is PoW mining and in the end, it will probably also cause it's demise.
Bitcoin mining sector took in 7billion$ miners revenue. That sum will be taken out of the market system and paid by the people who invest with hopes to sell with a higher price. Now, when there will be less new investments then 7billion$ , then the only place to take this money, will be out of coin value. When the miners are no longer able to get ROI, then they will probably start to accumulate and to take on loans to keep their investments running, with the hope of seeing ROI again in the future.
This last part will make things especially fragile and unpredictable. When those mining companies will be no longer able to sustain themselves, then they can't just turn off equipment and live happily. Large facilities have been purchased, workers employed, equipment bought and creditors befriended. In this scale production, your initial business plan either works or you go bankrupt, as simple as that. If you build a factory and you won't get enough demand to continue production, then there is no pausing your production and continuing in better times. The cost of pausing would just be too high for the risk be worth it. Your creditors will want to pull out, and bankruptcy is the only outcome. And if those bitcoin mining companies will go bankrupt, then their accumulated coin, that expected better times, will be dumped on the markets and the equipment will be auctioned off cheap. This will probably cause the final avalanche, that bitcoin won't be able to survive.
Hardcore bitcoin fanatics will defend PoW by trying to compare it to the costs of banking. You can only try to compare those two if you are trying to deceive others or you are totally ignorant on the subject of finance. These two are as similar and different as a paper plane and a F-22 Jet Fighter. What PoW should be compared to, is PoS or newer hybrid systems. It should be compared how much does PoW cost more then those systems, and is there justification with network security for this much higher costs. To ignore this subject is to ignore the most important part of crypto and this is it's efficiency. People ignore it because Bitcoin has switched from being a financial tech project into a religious group. They take Satoshi's white-paper as the holy word of god and they are caught in it's dogmas. Technological progress has switched with religious fanaticism from people who don't care about the tech part or if bitcoin could be actually used as a practical and efficient tool of finance.
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During bull markets, I always sell on the weekend dump. And during bear barkets, I always buy on the weekend pump. Very simplistic, but works for years already. Cheers guys! I'm drunk again, but we're experiencing a really good weather in this summer for our nordic little country  |
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Anon136 doesn't seem like a fanatic, but the subject he wanted to discuss about didn't currently seem interesting. You do seem a little fanatical tho..
You know there are people out there who do not value electronics right?
And it's kind of ironic to hear from a bitcoin fanatic, that electronics isn't important to everyone I missed your earlier reply in which you said you were drunk, so I'll let the discussion be for now. I jumped to conclusions and possibly made a mistake. He expressed himself in a calm and respectful manner in the end. Bitcoin fanatics usually aren't able to do that. |
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snip
No sure how any of that makes sense as a response to what I said.  This guy just starts talking next to the point so that he can keep believing whatever he wants to believe. Whether he himself is aware of this, I am not sure. He acts as if he wants a courteous rational discussion and claims the moral high ground, but in the same breath calls people that make calm remarks fanatics. Trolls gonna troll I guess. I actually want a courteous rational discussion about the practicality of crypto and the difference between gold and bitcoin. But when the topic starts to drift into the subject of semiotics, then I'm not currently interested  I don't claim the moral high ground, I have repeatedly confessed that I'm drunk, there is nothing moral about that. Anon136 doesn't seem like a fanatic, but the subject he wanted to discuss about didn't currently seem interesting. You do seem a little fanatical tho.. |
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What no tool vanity plate to go with it? Lol If you have lambo, good for you. You're now part of the tool club along with Ver and CSW. I have a paid off house and still millions worth of bitcoin. So tell me why I would be bitter again? Yeah, it's kind of funny when some guy shows up bragging about his lambo and gold bars, when over half the people in this thread probably have a higher net worth. Rich, poor - doesn't matter. What matters is if the person is religious about crypto or not. |
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Could we just agree, that we aren't stimulating each other enough to keep this conversation going?
I actually mostly agree with most of your points. I just wanted to help you improve your argument by convincing you to abandon vague and confusing language. But it's w/e. Sure we can stop here. The fault could be mine, because I'm currently drunk. English isn't my first language, so semiotics about the term felt a little out of context in financial topics. Still interesting question though. I'm just currently giving my best to keep my attention on the subjects most important aspects. Maybe we could continue the other subject some other day. I apologize for being too blunt before. |
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But the point I'm trying to make is, we don't give a shit what you own dude. Only you do. Which is probably why you don't have a friends. Or a girl. But I'm wondering if your ego actually can fit inside your house.
Roger Ver, is this one of your sock puppet accounts? Sure seems like it.
Married with a beautiful daughter thanks so all good. Dont worry, still got plenty of love left your mamma  Edit:
Just messing about - will now stop being a dick  I find it difficult to keep a calm mind here, without often being a dick. I have an unresolved issue with religion, and that constantly creates the need to entertain oneself in a dickish fashion. I consider it healthy.. |
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Strawman much?
First off, I originally specifically said "Gold's monetary utility is also easily replaceable.", already taking into account that gold has other utility than just the monetary one.
Secondly, I was talking about the concept of intrinsic value in general.
Intrinsic value is based on the important needs of society. Says who? Intrinsic means an inherent property of the object it's self. So for example a gold bars refraction index is an intrinsic property, it's elemental makeup is an intrinsic property. The atomic weight of it's atoms would remain the same even if there were no one around to observe it because that is an intrinsic property. But value? In order for it's value to be an intrinsic property it would need to have a consistent value even in the absence of people around to place a value upon it. You say it's important for making electronics. You know there are people out there who do not value electronics right? I get that you are trying to point out a distinction between more abstract reasons for valuing things vs more concrete lower order production type reasons for valuing things, but intrinsic is just not the right word for that. It just confuses people and everyone starts talking past each other. Most of bitcoin value is based on peoples hopes of it being more valuable in the future. Greed is a very fragile pillar in my book - it goes as quickly as it comes. Far more fragile then the need of electronics in today's world to stay competitive, or even when comparing it to the tradition of jewelry, then bitcoin greed is still a fragile pillar. And it's kind of ironic to hear from a bitcoin fanatic, that electronics isn't important to everyone And I already said that there are people who don't value electronics. In PNG there are plenty of people like that, go see how they're doing. The monetary system has one goal, and that is to allow modern economy happen. The economy creates value, the monetary system helps the economy to do so. And the best help comes from the monetary system that is most stable. No sure how any of that makes sense as a response to what I said. I think that this conversation stopped making sense after the attempt to make intrinsic value a vague concept in this context. It's like trying to end an argument by saying "it doesn't matter anyway, everything is relative". Could we just agree, that we aren't stimulating each other enough to keep this conversation going? |
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I'm mostly a fan of simpler metals, like aluminum, steel and titanium. I need to see it formed into something, this calms my mind It's a pleasure to talk to you, because you seem to understand the game. Even if our views on some things are different, it doesn't matter, because we are able to express ourselves in a respectful and constructive form. I'm not proud of it, but I mostly come here to troll. Religious people have always brought out the troll in me, and I haven't found a better way to converse with them yet. From time to time, it's a pleasant surprise to see that you can actually express yourself as an human being and it will be understood. Those metals are not great for stacking though as they are not value dense if you hold the physical metal. Silver is bad enough but you can cram a lot of money in gold form into peli case  Yeah, but that is my personal thing that I told before. I get very anxious when I see money sitting still, so I like metals that are meant to be quickly formed into something more valuable In a way, I invest more into people then metals |
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Strawman much?
First off, I originally specifically said "Gold's monetary utility is also easily replaceable.", already taking into account that gold has other utility than just the monetary one.
Secondly, I was talking about the concept of intrinsic value in general.
Intrinsic value is based on the important needs of society. Says who? Intrinsic means an inherent property of the object it's self. So for example a gold bars refraction index is an intrinsic property, it's elemental makeup is an intrinsic property. The atomic weight of it's atoms would remain the same even if there were no one around to observe it because that is an intrinsic property. But value? In order for it's value to be an intrinsic property it would need to have a consistent value even in the absence of people around to place a value upon it. You say it's important for making electronics. You know there are people out there who do not value electronics right? I get that you are trying to point out a distinction between more abstract reasons for valuing things vs more concrete lower order production type reasons for valuing things, but intrinsic is just not the right word for that. It just confuses people and everyone starts talking past each other. Most of bitcoin value is based on peoples hopes of it being more valuable in the future. Greed is a very fragile pillar in my book - it goes as quickly as it comes. Far more fragile then the need of electronics in today's world to stay competitive, or even when comparing it to the tradition of jewelry, then bitcoin greed is still a fragile pillar. And it's kind of ironic to hear from a bitcoin fanatic, that electronics isn't important to everyone And I already said that there are people who don't value electronics. In PNG there are plenty of people like that, go see how they're doing. The monetary system has one goal, and that is to allow modern economy happen. The economy creates value, the monetary system helps the economy to do so. And the best help comes from the monetary system that is most stable. |
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Nice pieces, but aren't their historical value higher then the value of their gold content?
Yes but same principle applies to old gold sovereigns for example that are over a hundred years old but only worth bullion values. Do you even listen to yourself? Intrinsic value is based on the needs of society....
How do you call the needs of a society "intrinsic" to a piece of gold?
And then you call me confused...
I thought he made that clear - industrial uses. There are also cultural uses such as wedding rings and other jewellery, dentistry etc. I'm mostly a fan of simpler metals, like aluminum, steel and titanium. I need to see it formed into something, this calms my mind It's a pleasure to talk to you, because you seem to understand the game. Even if our views on some things are different, it doesn't matter, because we are able to express ourselves in a respectful and constructive form. I'm not proud of it, but I mostly come here to troll. Religious people have always brought out the troll in me, and I haven't found a better way to converse with them yet. From time to time, it's a pleasant surprise to see that you can actually express yourself as an human being and it will be understood. |
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Strawman much?
First off, I originally specifically said "Gold's monetary utility is also easily replaceable.", already taking into account that gold has other utility than just the monetary one.
Secondly, I was talking about the concept of intrinsic value in general.
Firstly, I said that bitcoin would be far worse to use as gold as an monetary asset, because it has no intrinsic value, and that creates more instability. Now when you are telling that intrinsic value doesn't exist, then you are either trolling me or just confused Intrinsic value is based on the important needs of society. Electronics is a very important need in today's society. Telling that intrinsic value of gold is bullshit, is saying that we could very well live without electronics. Yeah you could. There are plenty of people living like that in PNG, go visit them and see how well their economy is doing Please don't try to provoke needless arguments with me. While talking with markj113, I really felt good that I'm talking to someone who isn't a religious fiend. Please don't ruin this experience for me Bad intentions bring out the worse in me This shows the power of gold as a monetary asset. This is my Double gold Doubloon from Spain's King Phillip II's rein in the 1500's. It still has purchase power 500 years later due the gold content.  Nice pieces, but aren't their historical value higher then the value of their gold content? |
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Strawman much?
First off, I originally specifically said "Gold's monetary utility is also easily replaceable.", already taking into account that gold has other utility than just the monetary one.
Secondly, I was talking about the concept of intrinsic value in general.
Firstly, I said that bitcoin would be far worse to use as gold as an monetary asset, because it has no intrinsic value, and that creates more instability. Now when you are telling that intrinsic value doesn't exist, then you are either trolling me or just confused Intrinsic value is based on the important needs of society. Electronics is a very important need in today's society. Telling that intrinsic value of gold is bullshit, is saying that we could very well live without electronics. Yeah you could. There are plenty of people living like that in PNG, go visit them and see how well their economy is doing Please don't try to provoke needless arguments with me. While talking with markj113, I really felt good that I'm talking to someone who isn't a religious fiend. Please don't ruin this experience for me Bad intentions bring out the worse in me |
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Gold isn't a very good monetary asset, since it's market is speculative and that makes it unstable. But bitcoin would be far worse, because unlike gold, it has virtually 0% intrinsic value. Stability is what the monetary system needs, because that is very important to develop the economy.
I think "intrinsic value" is bullshit.  I am very serious. In fact, maybe "value" is even a flawed word. Something has properties, which give it utility, which can be desirable for someone. Value is always subjective. (see "a horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse"). So, you actually can't comprehend that gold has irreplaceable value in electronics? |
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Gold isn't a very good monetary asset, since it's market is speculative and that makes it unstable. But bitcoin would be far worse, because unlike gold, it has virtually 0% intrinsic value. Stability is what the monetary system needs, because that is very important to develop the economy.
I think "intrinsic value" is bullshit. |
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I'm not a big fan of investing into precious metals with highly speculative markets, but BTC vs gold, I would choose gold. Bitcoin may be limited, but it is also easily replaceable. This makes it's value far more fragile.
With PoW vs PoS, the environment isn't an issue, but the cost of production is an issue. It's all about the numbers, talks about the environment is just for PR.
Gold's monetary utility is also easily replaceable... with bitcoin. We might see that play out over the next decades. Gold isn't a very good monetary asset, since it's market is speculative and that makes it unstable. But bitcoin would be far worse, because unlike gold, it has virtually 0% intrinsic value. Stability is what the monetary system needs, because that is very important to develop the economy. |
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My respects to anyone whose work is about creating real value and developing the economy. Then you must also see this (crypto) as a fun game and not take things overly serious Goes against the grain here but I have always said for me personally I use crypto for short term gains then plough the profits into gold for the mid to long term. In the future I see crypto being banned with state issued and controlled crypto being the legal alternative. Most will disagree but no one has a crytal ball and time will tell. Gold has no future because of the upcoming power abundance. Right now it is extremely inefficient to make gold which can be done but to produce 1 gram it would cost you a million dollars so digging it up is far more economical. Bitcoin is limited does not matter how much free, very cheap power you have you cant produce more only push up the hash-rate to astronomical levels. Free or extremely cheap power you still need a unit of measurement to contact business. And the other thing prof of stake or any of the other stuff the carpet is ripped right out under there feed if power or environment is not an issue. Trust me its on the way and or in place. I'm not a big fan of investing into precious metals with highly speculative markets, but BTC vs gold, I would choose gold. Bitcoin may be limited, but it is also easily replaceable. This makes it's value far more fragile. With PoW vs PoS, the environment isn't an issue, but the cost of production is an issue. It's all about the numbers, talks about the environment is just for PR. |
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My respects to anyone whose work is about creating real value and developing the economy. Then you must also see this (crypto) as a fun game and not take things overly serious Goes against the grain here but I have always said for me personally I use crypto for short term gains then plough the profits into gold for the mid to long term. In the future I see crypto being banned with state issued and controlled crypto being the legal alternative. Most will disagree but no one has a crytal ball and time will tell. I see that in the end, crypto won't go out with a bang, but with a whimper. People will just start to realize it more, that it isn't a miracle cure to anything. BTC will probably go first, because it actually tries to be a currency without any value stabilization mechanism. The newer generations will last longer, but again, people will see that they are just ineffective databases. But I don't have a crystal ball either, unexpected and strange things could happen. Our investment logic and love of toys express itself a little differently. I get very anxious when I see money sitting still on something. I need to see it constantly moving and giving people a chance to create more value. For my lust of speed, I love cars that aren't legal to drive on the road and that are as light and mean as they can be. To fuel my vanity, I love mostly cars that are at least 40 years old |
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