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1  Bitcoin / Mining support / AvalonMiner 841 temperature issue on: April 04, 2018, 04:08:55 AM
So my machines have been happily hashing for a few hours now, and my hash rate has been very good. Looking like about 5% above the specs averaged across the machines. However the temperature has me concerned. The fans  maxed out at 100% nearly immediately upon beginning hashing and I have temperatures in the low 80s (F) according to the controller. Ambient temperatures in the shop are around 70F  So it seems it should be able to keep the temps down.  The shop is an open design, it is 1200 ft.², has 10’ ceilings, and has lots of metal and concrete in it to act as a heat sink.

Can you folks take a look at this image and let me know what you think? Should I be concerned about the temperatures?

http://imgur.com/1mo3EyX

Thanks!



2  Bitcoin / Mining support / AvalonMiner 841 not detected by Controller on: April 03, 2018, 08:58:35 PM
Setting up my first 841, and ran across an issue:   The miner is not recognized by the controller.  Power up seems normal - fans and all.  Then I get the green lights everywhere on all devices.  No blue on the AUC3 at all except for a microsecond blip at powerup.  Controller is at the right firmware version (3/5/18).  All looks absolutely splendid, except the web page on the controller looks like nothing is connected.

Any clues for starting trouble shooting?  I tried two different auc3 converter cables.   I have not tried another USB/micro USB cable because I can't seem to find my second one, but will try that when I can find it

3  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [120+PH] KanoPool kano.is 7 BTC giveaway 🐈 on: April 03, 2018, 08:31:31 PM
...snip...
Controller Green - good, Miners should be Blue though.  Did you burn 841 firmware for the Pi?
and
...snip..
Are you using the same controller (PI) The 841's have a different controller firmware that needs to be flashed onto the PI.

Also if you do have that set properly, did you try switching the cables around you are using to Daisy Chain them, it might be that the first one in the chain is defective. This was just a guess because I don't think the miner lights would be green if this was the case. EDIt: Got my colours switched up might be the cable since this is "idle"

Th firmware thing must be it.  I use the latest and greatest at the Canaan site:
https://canaan.io/firmware-releases/
Now that I read it it does seem oriented to the 7XX series.   Does anyone have a different link?
(specifically, I used openwrt-brcm2708-bcm2710-rpi-3-ext4-sdcard )
Thanks again!!

All this is covered in the official Avalon 821 and 841 threads...
Never used something like GIT I take it? Use the link "Parent Directory" a few times and you get to Index of /downloads/software/
Navigate down from there.


Thanks - I have used GIT but the "downloads" page at Canaan threw me.  Just figured where I landed would have the 841 support in the latest version link...

Anyways, no love.   Downloaded, burnt, booted, configured. The dashboard indicates the 3/5/18 version but still the same symptoms.

Overview
Controller Version: Avalon Firmware - 20180305
Time: Sun Jul 16 12:05:47 2017
CGMiner Elapsed: 2:38

In a really weird development - the "Advanced" screen won't come up in this new version.   When I click on it, I get the same  info the "Status" tab in the advanced screen would give, but in the "Basic" theme with no link to the other advanced tabs.  When I burnt the microsd I did a verify too so not sure what is up with that...

(strike that - a reboot of the controller gave me my advanced screen back...)

I'll try to find those threads...
4  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [120+PH] KanoPool kano.is 7 BTC giveaway 🐈 on: April 03, 2018, 07:08:18 PM
...snip...

Controller Green - good, Miners should be Blue though.  Did you burn 841 firmware for the Pi?

and

...snip..
Are you using the same controller (PI) The 841's have a different controller firmware that needs to be flashed onto the PI.

Also if you do have that set properly, did you try switching the cables around you are using to Daisy Chain them, it might be that the first one in the chain is defective. This was just a guess because I don't think the miner lights would be green if this was the case. EDIt: Got my colours switched up might be the cable since this is "idle"



Th firmware thing must be it.  I use the latest and greatest at the Canaan site:

https://canaan.io/firmware-releases/

Now that I read it it does seem oriented to the 7XX series.   Does anyone have a different link?

(specifically, I used openwrt-brcm2708-bcm2710-rpi-3-ext4-sdcard )

Thanks again!!
5  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [120+PH] KanoPool kano.is 7 BTC giveaway 🐈 on: April 03, 2018, 06:51:36 PM
I have a problem that seems odd, and probably isn't related to the pool or my configuration related to the pool but I thought I would start here.

So I have a brand new set-up.   4 Avalon 841s daisy chained to one AUC3 hooked to one raspberry PI 3 controller.  I have nothing but love from all the lights on all the equipment:  All green(controller, miners, and AUC3) and all fans spin up just fine.   But I seem to remember a blue light that I don't see on the AUC3 and the controller doesn't see any of the miners tho )-:    There is nothing in the Pi logs insofar as errors are concerned.  

The pool website shows my worker uptime as reasonable (since I powered up the controller) and I changed nothing in my configuration from my previous setup with an Avalon 741 which worked fine.   I reset all the little serial connectors and even tried to connect just one miner with no success.

Any ideas?

Thanks!
6  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: BLOKFORGE- Official Canaan Distributor on: March 30, 2018, 03:06:50 PM
Just wanted to post a "thumbs-up" from a happy customer - fast shipping, great customer service, great email notifications, and very generous back porting of current discounts to prior purchases.   Thanks!!!   Smiley

My 4 new 841s can't come fast enough....


7  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [80+PH] KanoPool kano.is 10 BTC giveaway 🐈 on: March 21, 2018, 01:34:05 PM
Quick question.   When I check my rewards page I see a column for "Your N Avg".   I assume this is my hash rate for reward calculation purposes.  It is very consistently 7.16-7.18 TH/s.   Since I have an Avalon 741 that should be capable of higher hash rates(many folks reporting 7.3-7.4), can anyone point me to a few things I can check on to up the rate a bit?   The only thing I have done is move my miner to NYA, which had better ping times over the more generic stratum address.   That change resulted in much lower variance (order of magnitude) but only a very marginal improvement of the long term average.

Thanks in advance!
8  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [50+PH] KanoPool kano.is BEST 0.9% fee PPLNS US,DE,JP,NL,NYA 🐈 on: February 06, 2018, 08:37:15 PM
So, I felt the urge to ramble on about Bitcoin again since this block is pissing me off probably as much as everyone else here Smiley

Rather than try to edit in and out of the various posts ... here's how mining works Smiley

Firstly, mining is exactly the same as rolling a dice ... except for the number of possible solutions!
When you roll a dice, you have a 1 in 6 chance of getting a 6.
There's no progress to getting a 6, ever. You either get a 6 or you don't.
One try = yes or no. No history involved.

With Bitcoin the dice actually has 2^256 sides - yeah that's a pretty big number ~1.579x10^77
And ... there's more than one solution that's valid.
Any "side of the dice" that has enough zeros on the front, and is less than a specified value, is a block.
Of that ~1.579x10^77 number, the current difficulty decides how many sides mean we found a block.

The current difficulty is actually "0x176c2146" which is called "bits" and is 4 bytes of the data we hash.
"0x17" = 23 decimal and 32-23 = 9 bytes of leading zeros (i.e. 9 times '00')
The rest is "0x6c2146"
So, what those 2 numbers mean is that any block hash with a hex value of
H=0x0000000000000000006c21460000000000000000000000000000000000000000 or less is a block

and if you divide 0xffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff+1 (~1.579x10^77) by H and divide it again by 0x100000000 (2^32) you will get that network difficulty number:
Nd = 2,603,077,300,218.593
which means that every 2^32 times you roll the Bitcoin dice (i.e. hash a full nonce range) you have a 1 in 2,603,077,300,218.593 chance of finding a block.

... and the reason we divide by 0x100000000 again is that the network difficulty number of 1 represents 2^32 hashes

So ... that's how hashing works, but what are we actually hashing?

I wrote a document about it once, I'll repeat a little bit here:

The structure of a block header is an 80 byte binary data set, defined as follows:
Version                   4 bytes
Previous Block Hash      32 bytes
Merkle Root              32 bytes
Block Time                4 byte Unix Timestamp
Required Hash Difficulty  4 bytes
Hash Nonce                4 bytes

So looking at that we can vary 3 things:
Merkle root, Block Time and Hash Nonce

Normal hashing is to setup everything except the Hash Nonce and then count the Hash Nonce from 0 to 2^32-1 and hash each one.
Hashing the full Nonce range from 0 to 2^32-1 is also called 1 difficulty.

With stratum we can modify the Merkle Root to generate a different block header to hash the Nonce range.
The Merkle Root is a hash tree of the transactions we include in the block, however there's one transaction that we can change with stratum, and that is the coinbase transaction - or the transaction that pays the miner.
In this transaction we only need to make sure that:
1) It's a valid transaction (which is actually pretty random for the coinbase transaction due to the "sig" being allowed to contain almost anything as long as it starts with 'height')
2) It pays out to the expected address we want to receive the generated Bitcoins
3) The amount it pays is correct

So for stratum we put a bunch of other 'nonces' in the coinbase sig, that includes a unique number for each miner, and run the others from 0 up to some specified limit to generate a different coinbase transaction each time, that will generate a unique Merkle Root, to be put in a block header, to be hashed over the full Nonce range.

Thus with the unique number for each miner, and the miner itself following the stratum rules for creating coinbase transactions, the miner can keep generating a large amount of work that isn't expected to run out before the pool sends it new work.

Lastly, every time the miner finds a hash value that is higher than the difficulty specified by the pool, the miner sends the nonce and the "sig" nonces back to the pool.
The pool hashes those nonces with the values it sent to the miner, and thus verifies it's valid, and thus rewards the miner with the difficulty of the work sent to  the miner.

Now one more thing I'll add, that got mention a little while back, is that the miner can't modify the payout address to 'steal' the block.
The reason is that the pool wont get a valid hash of the nonces sent back, so the miner will get no reward. Simple Smiley

Great write-up - thanks dude!.  Also, I really appreciate the work you put into the pool.   While I know .9% is nothing to sneeze at, I also know you earn it.

Thanks again!
9  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [50+PH] KanoPool kano.is BEST 0.9% fee PPLNS US,DE,JP,NL,NYA 🐈 on: February 05, 2018, 06:16:55 PM

I could be completely wrong here, but my understanding is that each miner is given work to do and while that work is independent of everyone else's work, everyone is contributing to finding the  solution. That means, even a low hash rate worker has a chance of solving the block. I have always assumed that solving the block was a "brute force" method, so the pool just hands out work to everyone (Here, try this. Now, try this., etc.) The reason larger hash rate miners crack many (most?) of the the blocks is because they can try so many more attempts than a low hash rate miner. However, the attempts that a small miner makes (even if they fail) are still helping the pool because those are attempts that the other miners don't have to make because Everyone gets unique work.  Pretty sure Kano can explain this much more accurately.

Edit: To cut to the chase, assuming two pools are run exactly the same (e.g Kano S3 pool and Kano S9 pool) a 100PH pool made up of nothing but miners running S3 rigs, will be just as successful at cracking blocks as the 100PH pool made up of nothing but S9 rigs. (Not talking efficiency here, just block solving capability). Total pool hash rate is what counts, not how you got there.

Your understanding is correct. It is the total hash rate that matters, and workers are given their own space that will pretty much never overlap with the space of other miners.

We're all brute forcing a double SHA256 hash with slightly different parameters (nonce, time, extraNonce) and some of the same (merkle root, previous block, version) and each miner has effectively an infinite search space with those variables.  

The other thing to remember is that while people talk about "cracking this block" its actually been hundreds of blocks on the network, we just didn't brute force it before someone else on the network did.

But we're still on "this block", so in essence...yes we're still trying to "crack this block".  
Yes, this block for us, as in the next block the we finally solve,  but we've been working on lots of different network blocks since we cracked our last one. We'll all still use the "this block" expression though because it is convenient for our discussion purposes. That said........Let's crack this block!   Grin

Edit: And of course, at any point in time, the block we are trying to solve is "this block". It's just that "this block" is a group of different blocks since our last one. Ok, I think this horse is dead so I'll stop beating it.  Grin

Thanks for this great explanation, and it sort of confirms what I suspected was happening.   May I restate it and you folks make sure I understand it?

  • Kanopool grabs a block
  • We work on a whole bunch of math problems designed to help us find an encryption key that "unlocks" the block.  
  • More frequently however, some other pool/solo miner beats us to the solution.
  • So we grab another block and start again.
  • It is theoretically possible(though highly unlikely) that we might never find another block ever again - ie someone always beats us to the solution on every block we try, forever more.     Sorry - I shouldn't risk jinxing us (-:  )

In other words, we don't necessarily always work on the same block until it is solved(but we might solve it and get the coins), nor do we work on a "new" empty block until it is solved(side note:  I originally guessed this was what was happening  - we decrypted dummy data in the new block then we would be handed a "real" block to move into our new solved empty block, stripping out the loot in the process.


[edited to be more clear]

10  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [45+PH] KanoPool kano.is BEST 0.9% fee PPLNS US,DE,JP,NL,NYA 🐈 on: January 30, 2018, 04:57:52 PM
Here is why the recent criticisms of the pool sound a little like half baked frustration than anything else.   Detailed math really isn't even necessary to prove it, and here is why:

We get all transaction fees(better than some!)
We get all bitcoins
We only pay .9% admin fee(among the lowest).
Every share is treated equally(better than most who kick back to large operators)
Data provided on the website provides full transparency necessary to confirm the first 4.
Website is not a "pretty" as some but rock solid in my experience.

There are no other sources of bitcoin in mining we are missing out on and there are no other fees - hidden or otherwise - detracting from our profits.  In fact the only fee is occasionally waived.   Just this high level analysis proves there is no "there", there.

And PLEASE lets all stop talking about the 5Nd ramp and all that.  Its simply a weighted average to discourage pool jumping.   Kano is not "stealing" anyone bitcoins.   My ramp-up went exactly like the math predicted and I am sure my ramp-down will also when I turn off the machines.  

Being a newbie, I'm glad to provide my first defense of the pool.   

So nothing left to see here - MINE ON!  and dance too if you must - no one wants to see me dance though  (-:
11  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [40+PH] KanoPool kano.is BEST 0.9% fee PPLNS US,DE,JP,NL,NYA 🐈 on: January 29, 2018, 08:32:03 PM
In regards to supporting both a 741 and 821 on the same controller(I know it has been discussed elsewhere but I have follow-up questions that is more directly related to the pool so I will ask this here):

If I purchase a an 821 to go along with my current 741, it sounds like I'm fine with one controller, as long as I don't use the controller to alter or update any settings or software on the miner itself?   Since I seriously doubt I am enough of a mining geek to ever want to do that, I would prefer the simplicity of a single controller (plus, I would have to blow 10-15 bucks on a mini network switch in addition to the Pi, the case, etc).

Next question:  I would assume "best practice" for this pool (or probably any pool for that matter) is to combine the hashing power of all your machines onto one worker?(would avoid another 5Nd ramp up).  Or is a unique worker; each handling a group of identical machines, helpful in some other way I am not aware of?  

Lastly:  it appears the each controller only supports one worker.   Have I just not looked close enough?   Would an option to support another worker materialize if I plugged in a second USB cable from another AUC?

Inquiring minds would like to know.  Thanks in advance!!!
12  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: BLOKFORGE- Official Canaan Distributor on: January 25, 2018, 03:15:24 AM
Here's the thing people. Stop complaining;  Wink

Unlike every other company out they go out of there way to list any extra units that become available for forum members. They even carve out a small slice for us from the main order.

It does suck when you try and can't get through or you happen to get there to late. I'm sure they will try and fix it, but really if you get to the end and it says out of stock, take a minute breathe, and then act like you just got there and there were none available.

If people keep shitting on their efforts where is the incentive for them to come here and give us a shot at units, and even a slight discount sometimes.

Yes, we are whining a bit, but it could all be avoided with a page that reads that they are having difficulties and aren't  able to fulfill sales like they had hoped(bug is you can get it in your cart but it immediately become invalid).   A little  transparency and honesty goes a long way.   We understand there being no availability, and not getting it in your cart to begin with. We just don't understand why it gets pulled from your cart - probably given to someone who was lucky enough to not experience the problem.

By the way I replicated this on three different machines running three different operating systems using a different browser on each machine(IOS/Windows/Linux using Safari/Firefox/Chrome). So I feel certain this is a shopping cart bug and not an browser/cookie/security settings issue. 

4876 people trying to simultaneously buy less than 200 units.  cart just has problems on the last few, its millliseconds between stock removal and addition for the last few.  It is not that it is getting pulled from your cart, the front end caching is not caught up with the backend and it was not available to begin with.  If you can replicate a way to have 4000 people checkout at the same time on three different browsers, send us a resume.  But for the few that emailed us saying they had problems and didnt tell us to eat a d**k we took care of them. Smiley

I wasn't complaining so much as I was pushing back a little bit against somebody who simply said we should be quiet and not say anything. I certainly could do without a miner and can wait for another batch.   And all of us do appreciate you putting a nice batch of miners - at a nice price I might add - up for sale for us.

My guess is quantities are getting committed to carts, not stock IDs. I am software engineer for a large national retailer and I work on the backend systems that support the web site.   When the website wants to commit a quantity, we return them a stock ID which is dynamically generated at the time. That stock ID is associated with the quantity for as long is the cart/session ID from the website is valid.  If they haven't tender a sale with that stock ID by the session expiration, the quantity is return to the inventory column. Works for us, so might work for you?  I am also somewhat familiar with woocommerce - familiar enough that I do understand your limitations and my suggestion  would require a customization to woocommerce on your part.  So it may not be feasible.

Thanks again and sorry if any frustration on my part came through in my posts.
13  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: BLOKFORGE- Official Canaan Distributor on: January 24, 2018, 04:50:55 AM
Here's the thing people. Stop complaining;  Wink

Unlike every other company out they go out of there way to list any extra units that become available for forum members. They even carve out a small slice for us from the main order.

It does suck when you try and can't get through or you happen to get there to late. I'm sure they will try and fix it, but really if you get to the end and it says out of stock, take a minute breathe, and then act like you just got there and there were none available.

If people keep shitting on their efforts where is the incentive for them to come here and give us a shot at units, and even a slight discount sometimes.

Yes, we are whining a bit, but it could all be avoided with a page that reads that they are having difficulties and aren't  able to fulfill sales like they had hoped(bug is you can get it in your cart but it immediately become invalid).   A little  transparency and honesty goes a long way.   We understand there being no availability, and not getting it in your cart to begin with. We just don't understand why it gets pulled from your cart - probably given to someone who was lucky enough to not experience the problem.

By the way I replicated this on three different machines running three different operating systems using a different browser on each machine(IOS/Windows/Linux using Safari/Firefox/Chrome). So I feel certain this is a shopping cart bug and not an browser/cookie/security settings issue. 
14  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: BLOKFORGE- Official Canaan Distributor on: January 24, 2018, 02:37:00 AM
Ya.  I got the "Ha! faked you out - it's not really in your cart" message too.  I was able to repeat this scenario three times over 24 minutes.

Sounds like everyone had this problem too.


15  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [38+PH] KanoPool kano.is BEST 0.9% fee PPLNS US,DE,JP,NL,NYA 🐈 on: January 19, 2018, 05:48:18 PM
Dying to pick up a couple of 821s to feed into kanopool, but really want to do my buying through minerwarez.com   They are being very quiet about the new units and it has me wondering?     Other distributors (blokforge etc) are taking pre-orders but minerwarez hasn't even made an announcement.   Is this their typical SOP with new products or should I be jumping horses and going with a new provider and putting up with wire transfers and overseas shipping?  My gut tells me to be patient but I have limited experience all around, and with them in particular, to go on.   My one single order with them went perfect by the way.

Just curious...
16  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [35+PH] KanoPool kano.is BEST 0.9% fee PPLNS US,DE,JP,NL,NYA 🐈 on: January 19, 2018, 04:44:33 PM
You are assuming the price of Bitcoin is going to stay forever at today's price?

It seems less about the price and more about the difficulty.  If you click on the chart and change it to "coins generated" and look at it over 24 months, it basically shows that you will be generating next to nothing by month 12.

It's been showing that nothing is profitable like that since I started mining with only a hammer and chisel Cheesy

It's all speculation.

Yep.  Or y'all can do like I do and treat it like a hobby.   Golf costs a couple of hundred a month so I figure I can even loose a little occasionally and still be "ahead".  If you want to golf AND mine; well then I can't help you   Smiley


17  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [30+PH] KanoPool kano.is BEST 0.9% fee PPLNS US,DE,JP,NL,NYA 🐈 on: January 16, 2018, 05:27:54 AM
Best IOS wallet?

Sorry to ask this on the pool thread, but since it relates to miner wallets I figured you folks would be the best source of information. 

 I am using Mycelium and I like it a lot. But I really need one feature it doesn't have: the ability to set a custom minor fee level. The low priority setting is even too high.    I think it is running about 08 mBTC per byte. Even transactions in the .004 in mBTC area are confirming within a reasonable amount of time. When all I am trying to sweep a miner wallet and I don't care that it takes a day instead of 4 hours, even this low priority level too high.

Any ideas?

Sorry for my ignorance, what is sweeping a miner wallet, and why would you want to do that?

combine all of the smaller inputs into one larger input.   

Thanks, now, how do you do that, with mycelium?

It's for convenience really.  When I buy goods and services, I want to be able to do it at any time, have it confirmed quickly, and have low fees. The only way to do that is with a wallet that has one or two big inputs. But miner  wallets have lots of little ones. So I sweep them off Sunday night late to another wallet on a device I share with my wife.  .   But nowadays even doing that results in ridiculous fees with Mycelium. So I am going to switch wallets whenever I decide on a good one, so that I can sweep  affordably and use Mycellium just for buying stuff or for transferring to my exchange and depositing in savings.

 I looked into the blockchain wallet, but will it really reuse the wallet on my phone? Looking at the documentation it seems to indicate it will restore my mycelium  wallet since it uses the same system. But I couldn't read anything 100% definite.

Anyone with experience?
18  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [30+PH] KanoPool kano.is BEST 0.9% fee PPLNS US,DE,JP,NL,NYA 🐈 on: January 15, 2018, 04:17:45 AM
They haven't updated the iOS version yet? Latest android version allows fees so low the txn can get stuck.  How do I know that you ask?  Roll Eyes

 I've read a few things regarding an update, but if they were rolling it out they sure have not rolled it out for iOS yet...


Sorry to hear about your stuck transaction. That actually brings up a question I've always had. When someone says a "stuck transaction", does that mean it will eventually confirm? Or does that mean your money is gone forever in limbo; committed to an address that will never receive it?
19  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [30+PH] KanoPool kano.is BEST 0.9% fee PPLNS US,DE,JP,NL,NYA 🐈 on: January 15, 2018, 04:00:50 AM
Best IOS wallet?

Sorry to ask this on the pool thread, but since it relates to miner wallets I figured you folks would be the best source of information. 

 I am using Mycelium and I like it a lot. But I really need one feature it doesn't have: the ability to set a custom minor fee level. The low priority setting is even too high.    I think it is running about 08 mBTC per byte. Even transactions in the .004 in mBTC area are confirming within a reasonable amount of time. When all I am trying to sweep a miner wallet and I don't care that it takes a day instead of 4 hours, even this low priority level too high.

Any ideas?
20  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [30+PH] KanoPool kano.is BEST 0.9% fee PPLNS US,DE,JP,NL,NYA 🐈 on: January 10, 2018, 07:07:44 PM
I was waiting for the Canaan A8's but at 4K a pop? Wow, that is hard to justify. Currently at 56TH/s with 4 S9's at 14TH/s each. I paid ~7.5K +/- for the miners (bought when they were $1,320 ea), power supplies and PDU's. To get the comparable hash with Canaan is ~23K +/- for the miners, power supplies and PDU's. I love the fact that Canaan is a competitor but WOW, paying 3 times the cost is very hard to justify for less hash rate. Did these miners use gold hashing boards?

Others thoughts?

I also have a small farm, and belong to two co-ops.   I love co-ops for their support, collective wisdom and - of special application to mining gear - 9 times out of 10 it really brings the prices down significantly.   I doubt co-ops would ever work in crypto mining; but one can dream so here goes.....

Are there 10-20 of us in the USA that can buy a "full solution" pallet???  I'm in for 4 of them....   would keep the price right at $3KUSD I figure, even if we let the organizer charge an extra $100 per unit for the hassle and figuring lawyer fees to escrow and handle the money for transparency and safety.   

Cons:  Not sure Canaan's agreement with their resellers would allow this, and who has time to be the organizer??   Dang I just hate the rocks of reality (-:


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